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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
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On March 11 2012 17:10 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 14:56 overt wrote:On March 11 2012 14:52 iCanada wrote:On March 11 2012 14:43 overt wrote:On March 11 2012 14:38 iCanada wrote:
Shyvana is a tank. She gets free MR/Armor from her ulti so if you itemize even a little bit of HP you are almost unkillable.
She a tank in that you have to target her or she gonna chunk your entire team with AoE, rather than a tank in that you have to target her because she going to CC the hell out of your Carries so they do no damage. Same role, really. So she's a tanky champion that does damage? Therefore she's a bruiser. People have discussed it a lot on these forums but the term tank is super vague in LoL because while there are champions that can tank they also do other things such as deal damage or initiate fights. I feel like the separation between characters who are "tanks" and characters who are "tanky dps" or bruisers is so negligible that it doesn't even matter. Like, is Cho'Gath a tank or a bruiser? Does it depend on how you build him, like if you go full tank is he suddenly just a tank or if you build a more traditional RoA/Wit's + tank items build is he now suddenly a bruiser? 'Cause the way that most people build Cho'Gath he's going to do just as much, maybe more, damage as other bruisers will. Same can be said for Shyvana, Warwick, Mundo, and tons of other champions that people would consider "tanks." Why does it matter if we call them a Bruiser/Tank/Bologna Sandwich? zzzz At the end of the day they still absorb damage and disrupt things. It matters because people will call a champion like Cho'gath or Shen or Mundo a tank but refer to Irelia or Gangplank or Olaf as a bruiser. Which leads to a lot of confusion because there's literally no difference in what those above champions do. They tank damage, disrupt fights, and dish out damage. Cho and shen disrupt the entire team, mundo not so much. GP doesn't really disrupt he just runs in your face and does lots of damage while being really tanky. Poppy/leona tanks cuz they have sword n board. Pantheon tank cuz he has a humongous shield. Instead of an AP/soraka farmlane bot, how about GP/soraka bot with plenty of mana and heals?
Pretty sure you can make anyone work with Soraka botlane. But anyone with range will do more damage lategame than GP when farmed. The nice thing about AP's like Karthus and Cass is that they potentially do as much damage as an ad carry. But if GP builds only damage then he will just die immediately.
Edit: I mean, if you don't want a carry than it's ok I guess. But people don't go ad-support bot lane just because it wins lane. Having a farmed ranged ad in the lategame is pretty good.
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On March 11 2012 17:47 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 17:10 JackDino wrote:On March 11 2012 14:56 overt wrote:On March 11 2012 14:52 iCanada wrote:On March 11 2012 14:43 overt wrote:On March 11 2012 14:38 iCanada wrote:
Shyvana is a tank. She gets free MR/Armor from her ulti so if you itemize even a little bit of HP you are almost unkillable.
She a tank in that you have to target her or she gonna chunk your entire team with AoE, rather than a tank in that you have to target her because she going to CC the hell out of your Carries so they do no damage. Same role, really. So she's a tanky champion that does damage? Therefore she's a bruiser. People have discussed it a lot on these forums but the term tank is super vague in LoL because while there are champions that can tank they also do other things such as deal damage or initiate fights. I feel like the separation between characters who are "tanks" and characters who are "tanky dps" or bruisers is so negligible that it doesn't even matter. Like, is Cho'Gath a tank or a bruiser? Does it depend on how you build him, like if you go full tank is he suddenly just a tank or if you build a more traditional RoA/Wit's + tank items build is he now suddenly a bruiser? 'Cause the way that most people build Cho'Gath he's going to do just as much, maybe more, damage as other bruisers will. Same can be said for Shyvana, Warwick, Mundo, and tons of other champions that people would consider "tanks." Why does it matter if we call them a Bruiser/Tank/Bologna Sandwich? zzzz At the end of the day they still absorb damage and disrupt things. It matters because people will call a champion like Cho'gath or Shen or Mundo a tank but refer to Irelia or Gangplank or Olaf as a bruiser. Which leads to a lot of confusion because there's literally no difference in what those above champions do. They tank damage, disrupt fights, and dish out damage. Cho and shen disrupt the entire team, mundo not so much. GP doesn't really disrupt he just runs in your face and does lots of damage while being really tanky. Poppy/leona tanks cuz they have sword n board. Pantheon tank cuz he has a humongous shield. Instead of an AP/soraka farmlane bot, how about GP/soraka bot with plenty of mana and heals? Pretty sure you can make anyone work with Soraka botlane. But anyone with range will do more damage lategame than GP when farmed. The nice thing about AP's like Karthus and Cass is that they potentially do as much damage as an ad carry. But if GP builds only damage then he will just die immediately. Edit: I mean, if you don't want a carry than it's ok I guess. But people don't go ad-support bot lane just because it wins lane. Having a farmed ranged ad in the lategame is pretty good.
Yeah but maybe there's a reason where you'd rather have your ad top/mid instead of someone like gp while not wanting to run double ad.
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Hm i'm watching chu8's stream right now for the first time and i'm kinda amazed by how terrible are his mechanics, coulda escaped death so many times with fizz E but he has like 40 apm. Are there many hgih elo players with such a low apm?
(TBH i don't even know if he's high Elo, all i know is that he's famous, but so are Bob and Athene...  )
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On March 11 2012 18:40 Kaniol wrote:Hm i'm watching chu8's stream right now for the first time and i'm kinda amazed by how terrible are his mechanics, coulda escaped death so many times with fizz E but he has like 40 apm. Are there many hgih elo players with such a low apm? (TBH i don't even know if he's high Elo, all i know is that he's famous, but so are Bob and Athene... )
Each time he was caught they had vision on him (while he didn't). It's pretty hard to escape when they know what they're going to do to you, but you don't. He escaped plenty of other times, but you forgot to take into account on how farmed/fed their team was. Vlad fed Rumble at top like crazy, and he was denied farm in middle constantly because drain > Fizz apparently. He did decently well for how bad his team was denied.
Judging him in one game that was extremely disadvantageous for him is silly. He has some of the best mechanics in the game, he played DOTA and HON at extremely high levels. His APM is around 200ish most of the time, and his micro is great, but you don't really get to see that in League because there aren't items like Necronomicon/Puzzlebox or heroes like Meepo.
edit: hes at 2.2k elo, he hit rank 1 last season.
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People have too many pre-conceived notions on what a "tank" is for the term to have relevancy in LoL.
LoL has Disruptors, Peelers, and Initiators. A very few champions can do all of those, which would probably make them the closest things to Tanks in the game. Off the top of my head I think Rammus, Jarvan, Malphite, maybe Nautilus, maybe Shen, maybe Sejuani.
LoL does have a ton of champions that can do one or two of the above, and people apply their notions to those champions. I.e. , some players think that Tanks need to be able to deal damage in order to force the enemy team into attacking them. Hence the Bruiser/Tank confusion. Some people think Tanks need to be able to initiate a fight, some think they need lots of CC and disruption. Some people just think being extremely difficult to kill is enough to be a Tank. It's too cloudy to reliably use the term and invariably leads to confusion and conflict. Hence why the term needs to go away.
Just use classifications like "Peeler", "Disruptor", and "Initiator", which are far more intuitive and have actual, game relate-able meanings, instead of catch-all term that has different meanings to different people.
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A tank is the guy on your team trying to inhibit enemies from damaging your teammates.
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Everyone can initiate and eat damage, just gotta be tanky and depending on who you play you might have to overextend more than others. Be really tanky, charge in like an idiot, eat all cc, have your team kill them.
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On March 11 2012 20:24 JackDino wrote:
Everyone can initiate and eat damage, just gotta be tanky and depending on who you play you might have to overextend more than others. Be really tanky, charge in like an idiot, eat all cc, have your team kill them.
While this is true, I'd argue some champions initiate much better than other. For example, while a Shyvana may be tanky as hell and can start a fight by running in and eating everything, an Amumu can go in, do the same thing, but stun the entire enemy team likely having one-two of them die before the fight even begins.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 11 2012 20:22 R04R wrote:
A tank is the guy on your team trying to inhibit enemies from damaging your teammates.
Defensive supports do the same thing though.
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Duo'd a blind and went soraka zilean bottom. Honestly by level 3 it almost felt unfair(although it was TF soraka bottom so maybe a stronger AD wouldn't have had as many problems). Every time they come in, bomb, and later on, double bomb with speed to close and escape. It did feel extremely weak in midgame team fights though, because while double bombs is a lot of burst, it's not exactly repeatable and leaves zilean just twiddling his thumbs.
I've heard of and seen karthus/cass+ soraka bot lanes, but zilean I think beats them both in terms of being able to zone the enemy pair incredibly hard although kill potential is understandably lower. Does this still work against better players?
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On March 11 2012 20:22 R04R wrote:
A tank is the guy on your team trying to inhibit enemies from damaging your teammates.
Which is why Janna is the only tank in this game. And this is not my first time saying that.
"Tank" just has no commonly accepted definition in LoL, and the existing definitions are wildly contradicting each other. This is worse than discussing gold/10 because it doesn't even have any meaning for acual gameplay (I don't care what your label is, I might care about your items though).
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On March 11 2012 20:56 Amui wrote:
Duo'd a blind and went soraka zilean bottom. Honestly by level 3 it almost felt unfair(although it was TF soraka bottom so maybe a stronger AD wouldn't have had as many problems). Every time they come in, bomb, and later on, double bomb with speed to close and escape. It did feel extremely weak in midgame team fights though, because while double bombs is a lot of burst, it's not exactly repeatable and leaves zilean just twiddling his thumbs.
I've heard of and seen karthus/cass+ soraka bot lanes, but zilean I think beats them both in terms of being able to zone the enemy pair incredibly hard although kill potential is understandably lower. Does this still work against better players?
The trick is to just return all the damage back to them... after the double bombs and Soraka silence what other damage does the lane have aside from two AP's autos?
You already guaranteed to get tagged by the bombs, they have no more potential damage for ten seconds, so you have ten seconds to either last hit for free or put the hurting on them. If you don't return the damage you going to get zoned pretty easily, but there is no reason for you to not atleast try. In that ten second window most champs can dish out more damage than double bomb, TF for example could likely land two Q's, a gold card which actually is about the same damage as double bombs, and much more AA damage than Zilean has access to as well.
Its something I see a lot of mediocre AP player do, actually. Take a ton of damage, then back off because they scared of getting dealt more damage when really the enemy AP has none till his CDs back up.
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Enemy ap can just hide behind minions, you're not gonna harass them because you'll draw tons of minion aggro unless you start pushing early.
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No problem, Zilean's bombs will push back for you.
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On March 11 2012 16:01 Celial wrote:
Runes
Even if you don't play AP and top that much, it's good to just have a general page for each role just in case you have to play them for whatever reason. You have most of the most used ones, so I would just suggest you getting magic pen marks, hp/lvl seals, flat mr glyphs and ap/lvl glyphs. Once you have those you can pretty much cover every general role, rune page allowing.
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Finland33997 Posts
On March 11 2012 21:06 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 20:22 R04R wrote:
A tank is the guy on your team trying to inhibit enemies from damaging your teammates. Which is why Janna is the only tank in this game. And this is not my first time saying that. "Tank" just has no commonly accepted definition in LoL, and the existing definitions are wildly contradicting each other. This is worse than discussing gold/10 because it doesn't even have any meaning for acual gameplay (I don't care what your label is, I might care about your items though).
IMO tank is a champion who has extremely high survivability and in addition wants to draw attention of enemies to yourself. This is generally done by being disruptive in some way or by dealing enough damage that you can't be ignored. Generally the dealing enough damage ones are considered bruisers, but out of disruptive ones I could mention Shen taunt, Galio taunt, Rammus taunt, Malphite AoE attack speed slow, Nautilus mass cc, etc.
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On March 11 2012 22:59 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:06 spinesheath wrote:On March 11 2012 20:22 R04R wrote:
A tank is the guy on your team trying to inhibit enemies from damaging your teammates. Which is why Janna is the only tank in this game. And this is not my first time saying that. "Tank" just has no commonly accepted definition in LoL, and the existing definitions are wildly contradicting each other. This is worse than discussing gold/10 because it doesn't even have any meaning for acual gameplay (I don't care what your label is, I might care about your items though). IMO tank is a champion who has extremely high survivability and in addition wants to draw attention of enemies to yourself. This is generally done by being disruptive in some way or by dealing enough damage that you can't be ignored. Generally the dealing enough damage ones are considered bruisers, but out of disruptive ones I could mention Shen taunt, Galio taunt, Rammus taunt, Malphite AoE attack speed slow, Nautilus mass cc, etc.
Your definition still describes janna. Killing janna is kinda hard
(having extremeli high defensive stats on the other hand would make her not qualify to being a tank but then probably there will be other counterexamples)
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Leblanc burst is really crazy.
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Finland33997 Posts
On March 11 2012 23:12 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 22:59 Shikyo wrote:On March 11 2012 21:06 spinesheath wrote:On March 11 2012 20:22 R04R wrote:
A tank is the guy on your team trying to inhibit enemies from damaging your teammates. Which is why Janna is the only tank in this game. And this is not my first time saying that. "Tank" just has no commonly accepted definition in LoL, and the existing definitions are wildly contradicting each other. This is worse than discussing gold/10 because it doesn't even have any meaning for acual gameplay (I don't care what your label is, I might care about your items though). IMO tank is a champion who has extremely high survivability and in addition wants to draw attention of enemies to yourself. This is generally done by being disruptive in some way or by dealing enough damage that you can't be ignored. Generally the dealing enough damage ones are considered bruisers, but out of disruptive ones I could mention Shen taunt, Galio taunt, Rammus taunt, Malphite AoE attack speed slow, Nautilus mass cc, etc. Your definition still describes janna. Killing janna is kinda hard (having extremeli high defensive stats on the other hand would make her not qualify to being a tank but then probably there will be other counterexamples)
Not really that difficult, if you catch her she drops like a fly. Escaping isn't tanking, there's some common sense allowed.
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If janna is considered a tank then so is teemo with his global taunt>.>
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EPT
