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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 20 2012 23:56 Ziken wrote:
So guys, Im just curious, I havent really done any maths, but is there any situation in which you would buy a tiamat other than for laughs? Assuming you were super ahead or something. I can only think of malphite, that too if youre super fed. Not sure if the tiamat procs on the aoe of his melee.
Not really a well-designed item for how riot evolved the game. The dota equivilent is somewhat popular since it allows you to roam around farming more creeps than you otherwise would due to aoe autos and regen. I imagine Tiamat was made at first with this in mind, however in LoL it's usually possible to farm all the creeps on your side of the map with just spells/autos and regen is less valuable so there's no need for it.
In terms of a non-troll moment I believe Chinese teams have got it on AD's in the past to make them more effective at solo pushing. It's probably debateable both whether it really helps many AD's split push and whether they should be split pushing anyway though.
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There was a small time period where Tiamat got buffed and it was actually incredibly cost-effective for all of its stats, as long as you didn't mind being unable to turn it into anything else. Then the BF Sword items had their costs reduced, as well as IE being buffed...so people forgot about Tiamat once again. There are niche uses, sure, but it's almost always better to just buy the top-tier items instead.
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tiamat can be funny on twitch against all-melee teams
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On February 21 2012 01:24 Tal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 23:51 Tal wrote:Can you (or anyone) copypaste this here? The site (like a lot of blogging sites) is blocked in China, but I'd like to read it. Cheers Edit: thankyou Roffles and Mordek for the PMs  Reading now. Good blog -I've played a lot of random games and so I'm on the same page as you with the card gaming analogy. Seeing the randomness as part of the game is helpful, particularly after playing Starcraft. However, I'm not totally sure about the example at the end of the player making the same 'correct play' 9 times in a row, and then doing it the 10th. The difference with LOL is that the right play depends on your team mates. For example, something that often happens in my games is that there is farm available in one or two of the lanes, no pressing objectives, and I want to go farm. I know it's the best play. However, my team decides they'd rather mess around and go looking for a team fight. Suddenly my 'optimal' play is now a mistake, because my team will (stupidly) engage 4vs5, and lose. Other games this doesn't happen, and so I can go farm peacefully, and it's the right play. But the game when I've got an aggressive team, staying with them all the time is much more likely to result in a win. The reverse of this is initiating when you catch someone out of position, with the expectation that your team will rapidly respond to your pinging. In fact, they delay precious seconds doing god knows what, and you die. You know with perfect play that engage was right, but actually you'd have been better not doing it. So maybe the first time (in that specific game) you die and curse. But if you do the same thing, in the same game again, then you kind of have it coming. Essentially what I'm trying to say is that because you have team mates, even the optimal plays aren't always optimal, and it's important to see that.
Eh, this is another point that's being addressed. You can't control your teammates, you make the optmial play based on what they're doing. If you ping to go somewhere and take a tower or something and they DONT do it, then going 4v5 and dying is certainly not the optimal play. You just have to accept your teammates either aren't paying attention or don't agree with what you think is best and make the next best possible play.
Also, although I can accept that sometimes you get poor teammates, I've always had the view that if you play like the best player in the world - no you play totally perfect (including what you say in chat) you would have won that game 100%, so all you need to do is improve your play. Then I just start backtracing every death and figuring out my mistakes. (Whoever gave that tip to backtrace for mistakes starting with each death is a hero.)
There's people who complain about the one guy who doesn't listen and they lose because of him, and people like you who want to farm when the team is grouped. (Some people HATE when people don't group in solo queue) fact is you just need to do your best. If you want to convince your team to let you farm you ping back and shit and say wait w/e you need do it, if they're still being dumb you just have to join them.
So you still can make the optimal play, its just you react to your teammates, you don't always get to have your teammates react to you.
If you engage on someone, a lot of the time you'll be able to get out if you see your team not responding fast enough. In any case, if you weren't close enough that your team didn't see you fighting, it's probably not that good of an engage. More likely scenario is you engaging and your team being scared of some tank/bruiser and don't want to commit. (That's what I do ALL the time against maokais/jarvans/rammuses etc who engage on a squishy, I just don't let their team engage and I bet the tank is raging in chat about how much damage he tanked and his team did nothing)
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On February 20 2012 23:56 Ziken wrote:
So guys, Im just curious, I havent really done any maths, but is there any situation in which you would buy a tiamat other than for laughs? Assuming you were super ahead or something. I can only think of malphite, that too if youre super fed. Not sure if the tiamat procs on the aoe of his melee.
Twitch with 4-5 tiamts is a real terror. Burst up on their squishies, and watch their rest of the team die.
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if you got 3 tiamats on twitch and hit opponents in tiamat's range:
2 enemies --> each takes 200% damage
3 enemies -> each takes 300% damage
ALSO GODLY REGEN
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Does anyone agree with me that Ali/Trist is the best kill lane for ad/support bot? I just find it stupidly easy to level 2 kill, and if I don't I have sustain at level 3.
edit engrish
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On February 21 2012 02:10 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 23:56 Ziken wrote:
So guys, Im just curious, I havent really done any maths, but is there any situation in which you would buy a tiamat other than for laughs? Assuming you were super ahead or something. I can only think of malphite, that too if youre super fed. Not sure if the tiamat procs on the aoe of his melee. Twitch with 4-5 tiamts is a real terror. Burst up on their squishies, and watch their rest of the team die.
did it on my smurf too hard to hit all them without being bursted down lol i managed to get 4 tiamats and a BT too.
also people don't know about froggen going warmogs tears and reported me for doing it  . there needs to be a way for people not to cling to the idea that the ap carry must be a glass cannon or people need to stop clinging to the "metagame" which is ironic because it's supposed to be changing lol. i just feel like people should be able to play differently without being persecuted. i mean as long as it's not something completely trolly like ap ashe lol. neways hope this doesn't count as qq. just wanted to bring up the topic of people only believing there is one way to play
On February 21 2012 02:19 Zdrastochye wrote:
Does anyone agree with me that Ali/Trist is the best kill lane for ad/support bot? I just find it stupidly easy to level 2 kill, and if I don't have have sustain at level 3.
Yes i agreeee. I don't know why people stopped running it though. alistar's WQ and trist EW so strong early game in lane esp with ignite on trist. and then at level 6 that burst gets even stupider lol. might be because trist takes too long to get big and a lot of people like to play around the midgame now. that or people just aren't coordinated enough to do it :l
one last thing... right now, i'm looking at top laners that will get firstblood most of the time or force them out of lane quickly while running an aggressive runeset/masteries and ignite/flash and i am thinking yorick might be surprisingly the strongest one. 3 ghouls 120% Q and 1.0 scaling E looks very strong. will have to try this when i get home. of course they'd have to be pretty dumb to stay in range of his spells though... hmm yeah. i'll post something soon. >_<
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On February 21 2012 02:19 Zdrastochye wrote:
Does anyone agree with me that Ali/Trist is the best kill lane for ad/support bot? I just find it stupidly easy to level 2 kill, and if I don't I have sustain at level 3.
edit engrish
Alistar/Tristana is my favorite bottom lane as a Support, you burst so well it's fantastic and your late-game is still very very good. A little weak in the midgame though levels 7-12 seem to be tough for those two. There are better pure kill lanes without an AD carry/support (stuff like Leona/Jarman) but for Ad/Sup the only lane that really compares is something like Leona/Trist, since Leona's passive gives you comparable if not better burst.
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On February 21 2012 01:24 Tal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 23:51 Tal wrote:Can you (or anyone) copypaste this here? The site (like a lot of blogging sites) is blocked in China, but I'd like to read it. Cheers Edit: thankyou Roffles and Mordek for the PMs Reading now. Good blog -I've played a lot of random games and so I'm on the same page as you with the card gaming analogy. Seeing the randomness as part of the game is helpful, particularly after playing Starcraft. However, I'm not totally sure about the example at the end of the player making the same 'correct play' 9 times in a row, and then doing it the 10th. The difference with LOL is that the right play depends on your team mates. For example, something that often happens in my games is that there is farm available in one or two of the lanes, no pressing objectives, and I want to go farm. I know it's the best play. However, my team decides they'd rather mess around and go looking for a team fight. Suddenly my 'optimal' play is now a mistake, because my team will (stupidly) engage 4vs5, and lose. Other games this doesn't happen, and so I can go farm peacefully, and it's the right play. But the game when I've got an aggressive team, staying with them all the time is much more likely to result in a win. The reverse of this is initiating when you catch someone out of position, with the expectation that your team will rapidly respond to your pinging. In fact, they delay precious seconds doing god knows what, and you die. You know with perfect play that engage was right, but actually you'd have been better not doing it. So maybe the first time (in that specific game) you die and curse. But if you do the same thing, in the same game again, then you kind of have it coming. Essentially what I'm trying to say is that because you have team mates, even the optimal plays aren't always optimal, and it's important to see that.
yea, I should probably clarify that a bit. I don't mean to say that the right play is necessarily the same regardless of teammates. there are levels of randomness to solo queue, but that doesn't mean that we have no information regarding the actions of our teammates. it's like knowing your hand in a game of cards, but not knowing what you'll draw next. if the hand you've been dealt has led you to believe that your team will engage 4v5 and throw the game, then you've been given some more information that leads you towards the actual correct play, as opposed to the optimal play with a coordinated team. it's important to not actually overstate the randomness in games of chance and to utilize that information that you have to determine the actual best play. eh, there's a lot to say on it, I might just make another post about it later today.
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On February 21 2012 02:19 Zdrastochye wrote:
Does anyone agree with me that Ali/Trist is the best kill lane for ad/support bot? I just find it stupidly easy to level 2 kill, and if I don't I have sustain at level 3.
edit engrish
I randomly had a game as trist once with an ali support. Ali was amazing, got me like 5 kills real early. Dude didn't buy any wards and made me do it tho D:
I know alistar works well in a kill lane because of the CC, and I maxed E and W during the laning phase that game, but I don't think trist is necessary. Anyone with comparable burst like MF or Graves would do fine too.
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On February 21 2012 02:23 wussleeQ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 02:19 Zdrastochye wrote:
Does anyone agree with me that Ali/Trist is the best kill lane for ad/support bot? I just find it stupidly easy to level 2 kill, and if I don't have have sustain at level 3. Yes i agreeee. I don't know why people stopped running it though. alistar's WQ and trist EW so strong early game in lane esp with ignite on trist. and then at level 6 that burst gets even stupider lol. might be because trist takes too long to get big and a lot of people like to play around the midgame now. that or people just aren't coordinated enough to do it :l one last thing... right now, i'm looking at top laners that will get firstblood most of the time or force them out of lane quickly while running an aggressive runeset/masteries and ignite/flash and i am thinking yorick might be surprisingly the strongest one. 3 ghouls 120% Q and 1.0 scaling E looks very strong. will have to try this when i get home. of course they'd have to be pretty dumb to stay in range of his spells though... hmm yeah. i'll post something soon. >_<
Ward-heavy openings are popular on supports now, which curbs a lot of bush-camping strategies. The kill lane therefore must invest in pink wards for bush control while still warding against ganks. Meanwhile Tristana naturally pushes, so your opponents are likely spend a lot of time near their tower. It's a rough situation for a kill lane, though not an impossible one.
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Turns out Nautilus sucks top when they pick Shyvana (lower cooldowns and she doesn't lose her AoE with a broken shield so she outpushes you until your shield is thick enough), then Rammus jungle, and he camps you twice. What a surprise. 
Nocturne didn't help tho, trying to fight them only to give a second kill to Shyv. I came back to lane with philo, she came back with a madred's on top of her boots.
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I don't like Naut top. He can do it, sure, but I think with innate tankiness and heavy CC, he's better off as a ganking jungler or as a support of some kind. I haven't tried him bot, but I assume it can work like Blitz or Leona bot in a couple ways.
I'd rather have someone top who can farm quickly and safely and scales HARD with it, like Riven, Jax, Trynd, or Renek or what not.
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On February 21 2012 03:53 Alaric wrote:Turns out Nautilus sucks top when they pick Shyvana (lower cooldowns and she doesn't lose her AoE with a broken shield so she outpushes you until your shield is thick enough), then Rammus jungle, and he camps you twice. What a surprise. Nocturne didn't help tho, trying to fight them only to give a second kill to Shyv. I came back to lane with philo, she came back with a madred's on top of her boots.
QQ thread that way------------------------------->
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After a 2 month break I come back and have learned how to lane again. The easiest way to do it is sit back, and farm the creepies. You just farm up all the creepies, and assume your opponent is going to know exactly how to respond to any aggressive play from you, so just don't be aggressive. Now while you're farming up the creepies from the safest place possible, you need to be watching your opponent to make any slight positional errors. When he makes an error you get a chance to be aggressive. This passive aggressive play will give you advantage in farm, and if you get a farm advantage you should be able to turn that into an item/level advantage as the game progresses.
I don't know about the highest level of play but yesterday I just picked random every game, set my summoners to what ever they should be, waited for everybody to pick incase I had to random again cause some one wasn't happy, and I won most of the games I played, just expecting my enemy to have half a brain, playing safe, and just out farming everybody (except the games I played support).
Edit: Oh and don't feed the double buff.
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On February 21 2012 04:15 Sabin010 wrote:
After a 2 month break I come back and have learned how to lane again. The easiest way to do it is sit back, and farm the creepies. You just farm up all the creepies, and assume your opponent is going to know exactly how to respond to any aggressive play from you, so just don't be aggressive. Now while you're farming up the creepies from the safest place possible, you need to be watching your opponent to make any slight positional errors. When he makes an error you get a chance to be aggressive. This passive aggressive play will give you advantage in farm, and if you get a farm advantage you should be able to turn that into an item/level advantage as the game progresses.
I don't know about the highest level of play but yesterday I just picked random every game, set my summoners to what ever they should be, waited for everybody to pick incase I had to random again cause some one wasn't happy, and I won most of the games I played, just expecting my enemy to have half a brain, playing safe, and just out farming everybody (except the games I played support).
Edit: Oh and don't feed the double buff.
If I were you, I'd stop randoming and deliberately pick champs who scale beastly into late game. There's champs who are going to do very well using the method you provided, but some just need to get ahead to be of any impact later on. Thankfully, there's awesome ''always farm never be aggressive'' champs for every lane and even the jungle. Riven, Nasus, Irelia, Jax, Ryze, Trist, Kog, WW, Poppy... There's a couple more. Just avoid snowbally stuff like Sion, LeBlanc, Pantheon.
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I reckon Leona + any AD is a better kill lane than Ali. I.e. Trist leona > Trist ali
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On February 21 2012 04:27 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 04:15 Sabin010 wrote:
After a 2 month break I come back and have learned how to lane again. The easiest way to do it is sit back, and farm the creepies. You just farm up all the creepies, and assume your opponent is going to know exactly how to respond to any aggressive play from you, so just don't be aggressive. Now while you're farming up the creepies from the safest place possible, you need to be watching your opponent to make any slight positional errors. When he makes an error you get a chance to be aggressive. This passive aggressive play will give you advantage in farm, and if you get a farm advantage you should be able to turn that into an item/level advantage as the game progresses.
I don't know about the highest level of play but yesterday I just picked random every game, set my summoners to what ever they should be, waited for everybody to pick incase I had to random again cause some one wasn't happy, and I won most of the games I played, just expecting my enemy to have half a brain, playing safe, and just out farming everybody (except the games I played support).
Edit: Oh and don't feed the double buff. If I were you, I'd stop randoming and deliberately pick champs who scale beastly into late game. There's champs who are going to do very well using the method you provided, but some just need to get ahead to be of any impact later on. Thankfully, there's awesome ''always farm never be aggressive'' champs for every lane and even the jungle. Riven, Nasus, Irelia, Jax, Ryze, Trist, Kog, WW, Poppy... There's a couple more. Just avoid snowbally stuff like Sion, LeBlanc, Pantheon.
I don't mean to sit there and farm fest the lane until late game, I just mean don't play so aggressively you're going to either get first blood or feed first blood. You just play it safe so you can come out ahead in trades with out missing the creepies.
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EPT
