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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 22 2012 13:18 ManyCookies wrote:
Shen was actually more overpowered in internal testing. They put on live what they thought was sufficient nerfs.
Frankly, I prefer they overdo buffs, then gently slide back, rather than the other way around. It's easier to gradually nerf something to an acceptable level than to buff without going overboard.
I just find it odd that they released a set of buffs that caused everyone who understood the game at a sufficient level to start laughing. Like I dont know how those changes got through the live team.
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On February 22 2012 13:22 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 13:18 ManyCookies wrote:
Shen was actually more overpowered in internal testing. They put on live what they thought was sufficient nerfs.
Frankly, I prefer they overdo buffs, then gently slide back, rather than the other way around. It's easier to gradually nerf something to an acceptable level than to buff without going overboard. I just find it odd that they released a set of buffs that caused everyone who understood the game at a sufficient level to start laughing. Like I dont know how those changes got through the live team.
Rammus got through, and people didn't realize right at the start of pre season 2 he was OP.
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Probably the best player on the live team is Phreak and he builds frozen mallet on sejuani.
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I still to this day think Riot's Core Test group is too small. While it's easier to be precise with a smaller group a wider nut of people who have various styles should be used more often to stop silly things like tanks bursting down other tanks on even cs.
That or Guinsoo needs to actually be "Light handed" with his reworks. First Pirate, then Trynd, then Shen. I'm scared for what Morde will be capable of soon.
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On February 22 2012 13:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 13:22 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 22 2012 13:18 ManyCookies wrote:
Shen was actually more overpowered in internal testing. They put on live what they thought was sufficient nerfs.
Frankly, I prefer they overdo buffs, then gently slide back, rather than the other way around. It's easier to gradually nerf something to an acceptable level than to buff without going overboard. I just find it odd that they released a set of buffs that caused everyone who understood the game at a sufficient level to start laughing. Like I dont know how those changes got through the live team. Rammus got through, and people didn't realize right at the start of pre season 2 he was OP.
Literally the only buff rammus got since the LUX patch was that his q went from an inital 25% boost to a 30% boost and his ball curl did more damage at high levels. Neither are actual buffs for what makes him good (you vamp up q anyway, and you max e before w)
Dunno where this misconception that rammus got buffed came from. People just forgot he existed for a really long time.
Unless your argument is that the vast majority of the playerbase is really bad and didnt realize that shen was actually perfectly fine bordering on a very strong solo top prior to the changes. In which I agree.
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Poor Jiji, playing Annie against a team with Galio, WW, Nunu, and Lee Sin. Only burstable target is Kog'Maw, who has 710 range.
Probably not the best pick.
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On February 22 2012 13:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
People just forgot he existed for a really long time.
Unless your argument is that the vast majority of the playerbase is really bad and didnt realize that shen was actually perfectly fine bordering on a very strong solo top prior to the changes. In which I agree.
bold correct: this is because he was permaban status for a huge time before then. when a champion is banned in 99% of games for several months, people just forget how to play him. eventually other champs came into prominence and he dropped out of ban status, but by then people who played rammus were bad so he looked like a bad champ. he goes in cycles
italic almost true, but irrelevant: he was a decent top laner who had some good matchups and some bad matchups, but in the end it didn't matter because almost every single other solo top champ scaled much much harder than he
shaco goes through the same cycles as rammus
also, has anyone else seen the new ryze skin in-game? it is UNBELIEVABLY SMALL. it looks like a little tiny gremlin, sometimes he blends in with creeps because he's so small
also, dunno if this was a bug, but anivia's "bird of prey" skin in my last game would shrink down to a tiny particle whenever shifty did the laugh command. it was awesome because he was invisible in brush. it was also really creepy O_o
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On February 22 2012 13:41 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 13:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
People just forgot he existed for a really long time.
Unless your argument is that the vast majority of the playerbase is really bad and didnt realize that shen was actually perfectly fine bordering on a very strong solo top prior to the changes. In which I agree. bold correct: this is because he was permaban status for a huge time before then. when a champion is banned in 99% of games for several months, people just forget how to play him. eventually other champs came into prominence and he dropped out of ban status, but by then people who played rammus were bad so he looked like a bad champ. he goes in cycles italic almost true, but irrelevant: he was a decent top laner who had some good matchups and some bad matchups, but in the end it didn't matter because almost every single other solo top champ scaled much much harder than he shaco goes through the same cycles as rammus
Ya I mean I had no problem with buffing shen. But they essentially gave him the Deus X treatment when all he needed was an aspirin to help his late game.
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On February 22 2012 13:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 13:22 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 22 2012 13:18 ManyCookies wrote:
Shen was actually more overpowered in internal testing. They put on live what they thought was sufficient nerfs.
Frankly, I prefer they overdo buffs, then gently slide back, rather than the other way around. It's easier to gradually nerf something to an acceptable level than to buff without going overboard. I just find it odd that they released a set of buffs that caused everyone who understood the game at a sufficient level to start laughing. Like I dont know how those changes got through the live team. Rammus got through, and people didn't realize right at the start of pre season 2 he was OP.
Rammus with thornmail, some health and phantom dancers is the most broken shit on dominion. I'm really enjoying this free week.
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In my pet theory, it's not so much stupidity as a lack of investment. It takes dozens, if not hundreds of semi-legitimate games to properly assess the viability of a champion, and even more games scrimming to properly integrate the champion into a team comp. A top player (not named Dyrus) isn't just going to have 5 good games with a champion and play him in a tournament setting over more reliable, practiced picks. I think this is why even minor buffs seem to help a champion so much; a buff creates a surge of players testing the champion and declaring it viable/OP, even if the same influx would have come to a similiar conclusion before the buff.
Also see: Orianna, who was blantantly overpowered on release, but took a few weeks for top players to realize it.
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On February 22 2012 13:46 ManyCookies wrote:
In my pet theory, it's not so much stupidity as a lack of investment. It takes dozens, if not hundreds of semi-legitimate games to properly assess the viability of a champion, and even more games scrimming to properly integrate the champion into a team comp. A top player (not named Dyrus) isn't just going to have 5 good games with a champion and play him in a tournament setting over more reliable, practiced picks. I think this is why even minor buffs seem to "help" a champion so much; a buff creates a surge of players testing the champion and declaring it viable/OP, even if the same surge would have come to a similiar conclusion before the buff.
I mean thats fine, but there is a difference from a champ a pro feels comfortable running in a tournament and a champion that is so bad that he needs the Deus X treatment.
Twitch and Karma, for example, are complete shit according to 99% of the community, but both are very strong champions when played correctly. Nunu was considered shit before M5, so was Mundo and Shyvana.
The problem the Live Team has at the moment is that they are not very good at determining which champs are fine and just underplayed and which are actually in need of the augments.
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Well, unpopularity and lack of strength are strongly correlated (obviously not perfect, as Nunu/Trundle demonstrate) and often difficult to differentiate. Sometimes an "unpopular but fine" champion just needs a bit of a buff to attract interest, even if they don't really need it balance wise. Niche/specialized champions do have to be a little stronger than balanace dictates to justify the neccesary time invested in learning the different playstyle.
I'm ultimately dodging the main question "What in the hell were they thinking with Shen?". I don't know. Reputedly, Shen was even stronger in internal testing, and they thought a tone down would be sufficient. That only explains, not justifies the change though.
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On February 22 2012 13:20 NeoIllusions wrote:
Sejuani's ulti has such a huge hitbox. wtf
This is why after I saw a bunch of people going "OMG NAUTILUS REPLACES SEJUANI WHY RELEASE HER OMG" I kept laughing. Sejuani's ult is pretty much the most ridiculous in the game. (Also her W scaling is secretly absurd 200 damage a second np np)
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On February 22 2012 13:58 ManyCookies wrote:
Well, unpopularity and lack of strength are strongly correlated (though not perfect, as Nunu/Trundle demonstrate), and often difficult to differentiate.
I'm ultimately dodging the main question "What in the hell were they thinking with Shen?". I don't know. Reputedly, Shen was even stronger in internal testing, and they thought a tone down would be sufficient. That only explains, not justifies the change though.
Which is why one of the 100 some odd people Riot wants to hire should be a VP of Common Sense. Someone who just gets paid to sit around and check all the shit that gets put into the community. Like anyone who hadnt been involved in the process who saw the shen changes would just say WTF.
The VP of Common Sense would also have been useful for the WCG debacle with CDE. Marcou wants to say what? You guys arent gonna bother telling anyone that CDE gets to go too?
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They already have an entire department to that, it's called QA.
On another note, I think the new WW is absolutely insane now. He's always been "Don't let the enemy jungler get 3 kills before I'm 6 and I'll win the game for you", but now even more so, with his pre-6 period reduced by a good 15-20 seconds.
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On February 22 2012 14:05 ManyCookies wrote:
They already do, it's called QA.
Then somethin isnt workin.
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Does QA have any senior people or people with influence working for it?
Part of the problem is that Guinsoo pushes out these absurd remakes and I'm starting to wonder if no one at the company feels comfortable enough to tell him "This design doesn't belong in this game, take away 80% of this".
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Gonna stream 2 Elo Welfare games. Around 1400 Elo. I'm just testing out streaming and stuff. I'll pick up welfare and stream the games soon :-)
http://www.own3d.tv/ShakeDrizzle
hows the sound? Music okay?
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On February 22 2012 13:32 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 13:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 22 2012 13:22 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 22 2012 13:18 ManyCookies wrote:
Shen was actually more overpowered in internal testing. They put on live what they thought was sufficient nerfs.
Frankly, I prefer they overdo buffs, then gently slide back, rather than the other way around. It's easier to gradually nerf something to an acceptable level than to buff without going overboard. I just find it odd that they released a set of buffs that caused everyone who understood the game at a sufficient level to start laughing. Like I dont know how those changes got through the live team. Rammus got through, and people didn't realize right at the start of pre season 2 he was OP. Literally the only buff rammus got since the LUX patch was that his q went from an inital 25% boost to a 30% boost and his ball curl did more damage at high levels. Neither are actual buffs for what makes him good (you vamp up q anyway, and you max e before w) Dunno where this misconception that rammus got buffed came from. People just forgot he existed for a really long time
Plus more damage on his W, plus more damage every level, plus the jungle remake. Rammus got a MASSIVE buff out of all of this, noticeably to his clear speed and sustain which was tremendously reliant on wriggles, an item that was mediocre on him at best. If you don't think Rammus got huge buffs you're just not playing the same game as the rest of us. The fact that he can shift from Q to W or vice versa instantly is a HUGE buff to his team fight presence and his ganks because of how much that fraction of a second could turn a fight.
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On February 22 2012 14:19 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 13:32 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 22 2012 13:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On February 22 2012 13:22 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 22 2012 13:18 ManyCookies wrote:
Shen was actually more overpowered in internal testing. They put on live what they thought was sufficient nerfs.
Frankly, I prefer they overdo buffs, then gently slide back, rather than the other way around. It's easier to gradually nerf something to an acceptable level than to buff without going overboard. I just find it odd that they released a set of buffs that caused everyone who understood the game at a sufficient level to start laughing. Like I dont know how those changes got through the live team. Rammus got through, and people didn't realize right at the start of pre season 2 he was OP. Literally the only buff rammus got since the LUX patch was that his q went from an inital 25% boost to a 30% boost and his ball curl did more damage at high levels. Neither are actual buffs for what makes him good (you vamp up q anyway, and you max e before w) Dunno where this misconception that rammus got buffed came from. People just forgot he existed for a really long time Plus more damage on his W, plus the jungle remake. Rammus got a MASSIVE buff out of all of this, noticeably to his clear speed which was reliant on wriggles, an item that was mediocre on him at best. If you don't think Rammus got huge buffs you're just not playing the same game as the rest of us.
Damage on his w was a nerf at low levels, which every Rammus player doesnt get till level 8-13. So that was actually a nerf.
The remake helped him, but no more than it helped Amumu, Udyr, Shyvana, or Malphite. Rammus was just always better than people gave him credit for.
Like I dont even see how you can argue that he wasnt undervalued for a very long period of time. The only REAL buff he got was the jungle remake, which helped everyone like Rammus equally. It didnt make him suddenly BETTER than everyone else. Just look at pre remake- he was still one of the most picked champions up till a few nerfs, then everyone jumped ship. Then no changes for a very long time, only in that period everyone realized he was still better than a lot of the choices that they had had.
So no, he wansnt buffed outside of the way all aoe clearers got a buff with the jungle remake. If anything the only possible argument you can make is that the remake helped more people realize he was very good, although if I recall correctly he was being picked up prior to the remake by Dinh/Saint/TOO.
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EPT
