EPT[Patch 1.0.0.133: Ziggs] General Discussion - Page 143
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:28 spinesheath wrote: Such an egocentric thought process, lol. Trundle's ult isn't amazing for himself. It's amazing AGAINST the target. How do you take down a fed bruiser? You throw trundle ult at him, focus him, and watch as he dies faster than your average squishy. Yeah, but someone who gets trundle ulted generally follows the same route as when they get morde ulted. You run/flash/ability away and wait for it to run out. And then the fight becomes a 4v4, because trundle's damage is fairly negligible. I mean, Trundle has great amounts of utility, even his Q has utility. But it's just so hard to get all that utility to work properly. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:42 Doctorbeat wrote: Yeah, but someone who gets trundle ulted generally follows the same route as when they get morde ulted. You run/flash/ability away and wait for it to run out. And then the fight becomes a 4v4, because trundle's damage is fairly negligible. I mean, Trundle has great amounts of utility, even his Q has utility. But it's just so hard to get all that utility to work properly. I had the same thought process. I treat every Trundle I see as a tanky support instead of a tanky dps. Once his stuff is down, if you can deal with it, he's negligible. However, his utility is really high, so you have to make it a point to be aware of his pillar and debuffs. Otherwise, I don't think he's that great as long as you remember not to focus him and just watch his abilities. Udyr is scary because he's tanky, has utility (stun), and still pumps out a lot of damage. Skarner is tanky, has his ult and AoE slow, and pumps out a lot of damage. If Trundle's damage was higher (or had a reliable amount of AoE damage for teamfights), he'd be much scarier. But he really isn't. This makes him a bad solo queue champ. Without communication from the team, you can't utilize him to his full potential, I think. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I'll agree trundles damage is pretty great at least later on. You hit+q combo is pretty nasty but I feel like you need a trinity to do real good damage. His CD uptime on W really hurts him though, + the cast time on Q and W makes it hardish to chase. His pillar is only effective at high ranks IMO so your W doesn't get levels until later on. I don't feel he's good at sticking to people without phage, but then udyr or shyvana aren't either they just have more consistent movement speed. | ||
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unichan
United States4223 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:42 BlackMagister wrote: TSM scrimming M5, at champ select atm. ok lol i thought they were picking eve | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:42 Shikyo wrote: My pro guide on playing Trundle: Counterpick vs Rammus. Triforce, IE, PD, BT. In teambattle wait until Rammus DBC -> Ulti rammus -> 1v4 -> kill Rammus I hate when people try to put trundle up as the counter for Rammus. Sure, in teamfights his ult helps shred ramm. But lets just ignore the fact that up till then you give rammus a free pass to gank every lane you have, get full farm in the jungle, and HIT that point where you get to a teamfight and think "well shit, now we have to deal with rammus primarily" That is not a counter. That is a worst case scenario made slightly less terrible. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:53 Slayer91 wrote: Trundle is good against fed bruisers, but he takes pressure off their carries letting them do damage easier. He has no hard CC and his pillar is better at kiting bruisers. I feel like he can't run past a team to go for carries unless he's extremely fed or you have like assassins in your team which are huge priority for focusing as soon as they run in. Maybe I'm biased because nobody plays him any more though. An udyr or shyvana has a very easy time straight up killing an AD who doesn't take them as a threat. (Well, maybe something annoying like sivir+nunu combo can kite them, but they're still tanking damage just fine) I'll agree trundles damage is pretty great at least later on. You hit+q combo is pretty nasty but I feel like you need a trinity to do real good damage. i think this is the biggest point. Once he gets stuck to somebody, it's hard to get him off, but he has a lot of trouble getting to there, due to his lack of gap-closers. hence, it ends up being more reliable to use pillar to peel and disrupt, instead of chasing and sticking to somebody. | ||
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
It's common enough in scrims to pick eve or another troll pick to signify a placeholder for another hero that someone higher in the pick order doesn't have. Xpecial must have messaged M5 to signify what the pick actually was. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote: Then why not play trundle as a support and take him for the ult. Cuz he CERTAINLY isnt worth wasting your jungle slot on ATM. He just doesnt bring enough to the table. His map presence is low, his ganking is pretty bad (lack of damage compared to others, still has to run at you, no hard cc) and his late game is pretty terrible because there are no real good build options for him. As you might have realized, support-ish junglers are relatively common these days. You obviously can't put Trundle bot to "support" because the inevitable result is your bot lane getting crushed. At least if you stick to the ranged AD + support scheme. I wouldn't completely rule out the possibilty of a good Trundle + X bot lane, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Also don't come at me for not refuting any of your other arguments, I didn't say anything about Trundle's viability in my previous post. Yeah lol, I should have put that addendum right into my first draft of the post... Don't just add stuff to the discussion and assume that I also disagree with everything you added just because I disagree with the initial part. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:59 Slayer91 wrote: Yeah, it comes down to: If you have warmogs +trinity and you ult a tank you are a beast, if you have just warmogs you don't do much damage, and if you have just trinity you are squishy as hell. And its damn near impossible to get 10k gold in the jungle. Spines- a support jungle as what you are saying is a jungle who still has stupidly good map control through strong gank presence. Maokai and Ali are support type jungles cuz they dont scale and are very good at getting kills. You cant play trundle like that. You just cant. I meant him BOT, because jungling him as a support is fing terrible. | ||
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Hyren
United States817 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote: Then why not play trundle as a support and take him for the ult. Cuz he CERTAINLY isnt worth wasting your jungle slot on ATM. He just doesnt bring enough to the table. His map presence is low, his ganking is pretty bad (lack of damage compared to others, still has to run at you, no hard cc) and his late game is pretty terrible because there are no real good build options for him. What, what, and WHAT? Since when was Trundle's ganking "pretty bad"? 1) Damage may be lower than Udyr/Shyv, but not by appreciably before 6, and after 6 it is comparable/better because of how much comparative damage your ult puts into a gank. 5th rank Phoenix is 55 damage per second. 5th rank Trundle Q is +40 AD--and you will attack at a rate of ~1 attack per second or better with W. The per-3rd attack proc from Phoenix is roughly equivalent to the damage from the actual activation of Trundle Q, so overall damage output is only slightly behind, and again, usage of the ultimate completely closes that in-gank damage gap. While his AoE damage is drastically worse in that comparison, that's rarely relevant in the context of a gank. For single-target damage in a gank, Trundle's damage output really isn't that much worse than Udyr. 2) Still has to run at you? So do Udyr, Skarner, and Shyvana. In fact, Contaminate is both stronger and practically longer-lasting than both Bear Stance and Crystalline Exoskeleton, so Trundle performs BETTER in this department than Udyr and Skarner. 3) No hard CC--but Trundle has a reliable ranged slow--that happens to outrange the 3 other reliable ranged slows available to common junglers. Somehow Nunu's and Gangplank's ranged slows make them monster gankers, but Trundle's makes him terrible? | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Attakijing
United States693 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:42 Doctorbeat wrote: Yeah, but someone who gets trundle ulted generally follows the same route as when they get morde ulted. You run/flash/ability away and wait for it to run out. And then the fight becomes a 4v4, because trundle's damage is fairly negligible. I mean, Trundle has great amounts of utility, even his Q has utility. But it's just so hard to get all that utility to work properly. Wow is that what happens? high level games must be really cool | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
If you don't have map presence as Trundle you're probably trying too hard to farm the jungle. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On February 11 2012 03:13 TheYango wrote: What, what, and WHAT? Since when was Trundle's ganking "pretty bad"? 1) Damage may be lower than Udyr/Shyv, but not by appreciably before 6, and after 6 it is comparable/better because of how much comparative damage your ult puts into a gank. 5th rank Phoenix is 55 damage per second. 5th rank Trundle Q is +40 AD--and you will attack at a rate of ~1 attack per second or better with W. The per-3rd attack proc from Phoenix is roughly equivalent to the damage from the actual activation of Trundle Q, so overall damage output is only slightly behind, and again, usage of the ultimate completely closes that in-gank damage gap. While his AoE damage is drastically worse in that comparison, that's rarely relevant in the context of a gank. For single-target damage in a gank, Trundle's damage output really isn't that much worse than Udyr. 2) Still has to run at you? So do Udyr, Skarner, and Shyvana. In fact, Contaminate is both stronger and practically longer-lasting than both Bear Stance and Crystalline Exoskeleton, so Trundle performs BETTER in this department than Udyr and Skarner. 3) No hard CC--but Trundle has a reliable ranged slow--that happens to outrange the 3 other reliable ranged slows available to common junglers. Somehow Nunu's and Gangplank's ranged slows make them monster gankers, but Trundle's makes him terrible? I think his over all kit is "a jack of all trade but a master of none". he does everything well, but doesn't offer any specialty. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 11 2012 03:03 Two_DoWn wrote: And its damn near impossible to get 10k gold in the jungle. On February 11 2012 03:18 Seuss wrote: Trundle's ganking/map presence is fine. The problem is less the strength of his ganking and more that he's utterly reliant on being successful with his ganks to have much relevance later in the game (i.e. Xin Zhao syndrome). If you don't have map presence as Trundle you're probably trying too hard to farm the jungle. The only reason this "syndrome" exists is because people don't play supportive laners that cede farm to junglers later in the game, so their development is entirely centered on their ability to get farmed during the jungling phase. Consider that more than 2/3-3/4 of the farm in a game will come from farming outside of the laning phase, your gold income should be UTTERLY IRRELEVANT to what lane/role you take, and more related to how the team chooses to assign post-laning farm to you. A more apt name for it would be "4-carry syndrome". | ||
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