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On February 11 2012 03:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote:
Then why not play trundle as a support and take him for the ult. Cuz he CERTAINLY isnt worth wasting your jungle slot on ATM. He just doesnt bring enough to the table. His map presence is low, his ganking is pretty bad (lack of damage compared to others, still has to run at you, no hard cc) and his late game is pretty terrible because there are no real good build options for him. What, what, and WHAT? Since when was Trundle's ganking "pretty bad"? 1) Damage may be lower than Udyr/Shyv, but not by appreciably before 6, and after 6 it is comparable/better because of how much comparative damage your ult puts into a gank. 5th rank Phoenix is 55 damage per second. 5th rank Trundle Q is +40 AD--and you will attack at a rate of ~1 attack per second or better with W. The per-3rd attack proc from Phoenix is roughly equivalent to the damage from the actual activation of Trundle Q, so overall damage output is only slightly behind, and again, usage of the ultimate completely closes that in-gank damage gap. 2) Still has to run at you? So do Udyr, Skarner, and Shyvana. In fact, Contaminate is both stronger and practically longer-lasting than both Bear Stance and Crystalline Exoskeleton, so Trundle performs BETTER in this department than Udyr and Skarner. 3) No hard CC--but Trundle has a reliable ranged slow--that happens to outrange the 3 other reliable ranged slows available to common junglers. Somehow Nunu's and Gangplank's ranged slows make them monster gankers, but Trundle's makes him terrible?
1) Ult takes 6 second to fully matriculate. If you need that full time, someone is getting away. Shyv deals WAY more damage- all her abilities crush people. Udyr deals less damage than her, and on par with trundle, but he has a repeatable 6 second stun.
2)Shyv has a flash. And yes, he shares this weakness with a lot of people. Pillar helps him get into range, but you still need to waste a good portion of the duration just getting into position to beat on people. Once Skarner and Udyr get to you, its game. So yes, having to run is a downside when you have no hard cc to back it up.
3)GP has much more power than Trundle does, not to mention a map wide ultimate that deals a shit ton of damage. Nunu slow is about on par with Trundle slow, but when is the last time you saw nunu jungle in competitive play?
Slows work if someone is out of position by a LOT. GP, Nunu, and Trund all arent getting kills if someone isnt very extended. Shyv can dive, udyr and skarner just need minute openings, Lee Sin jarvan and maokai are all ganking gods. The list of people with better ganks than Trundle is a lot longer than the list of people worse.
And yango, you are talking about ceding 10k gold worth of farm to someone to make them VIABLE. Id rather have 10 on my actual carries because I can play jarvan and do everything trundle does but better and with less farm.
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On February 11 2012 03:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 03:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
And its damn near impossible to get 10k gold in the jungle.
Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 03:18 Seuss wrote:
Trundle's ganking/map presence is fine. The problem is less the strength of his ganking and more that he's utterly reliant on being successful with his ganks to have much relevance later in the game (i.e. Xin Zhao syndrome).
If you don't have map presence as Trundle you're probably trying too hard to farm the jungle. The only reason this "syndrome" exists is because people don't play supportive laners that cede farm to junglers later in the game, so their development is entirely centered on their ability to get farmed during the jungling phase. Consider that more than 2/3-3/4 of the farm in a game will come from farming outside of the laning phase, your gold income should be UTTERLY IRRELEVANT to what lane/role you take, and more related to how the team chooses to assign post-laning farm to you. A more apt name for it would be "4-carry syndrome".
somewhat related: trundle is an absolute monster if u have a zilean mid
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United States47024 Posts
On February 11 2012 03:26 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 03:19 TheYango wrote:On February 11 2012 03:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
And its damn near impossible to get 10k gold in the jungle.
On February 11 2012 03:18 Seuss wrote:
Trundle's ganking/map presence is fine. The problem is less the strength of his ganking and more that he's utterly reliant on being successful with his ganks to have much relevance later in the game (i.e. Xin Zhao syndrome).
If you don't have map presence as Trundle you're probably trying too hard to farm the jungle. The only reason this "syndrome" exists is because people don't play supportive laners that cede farm to junglers later in the game, so their development is entirely centered on their ability to get farmed during the jungling phase. Consider that more than 2/3-3/4 of the farm in a game will come from farming outside of the laning phase, your gold income should be UTTERLY IRRELEVANT to what lane/role you take, and more related to how the team chooses to assign post-laning farm to you. A more apt name for it would be "4-carry syndrome". somewhat related: trundle is an absolute monster if u have a zilean mid
Not surprising in the slightest, given that a lot of his strengths and weaknesses are shared with Olaf (and people knew Zilean+Olaf was stupid strong together since before Trundle even was released).
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1) You can't compare the damage from Trundle Q+Ult to Phoenix stance. Udyr can spam stances all day, Trundle's ult isn't going to be up for every gank and his use of both skills costs twice as mana.
2) Ya. But when Udyr runs at you, he stuns you when he gets there.
3) Parrrrrley and Snowball both do quite a bit of damage as well as slow.
I don't think Trundle is an awful ganker, and from a laning perspective it really sucks when a Pillar gets thrown between me and my tower, however, I think there are much stronger choices in the jungle, both for clearing and for ganking than trundle.
And I know you didn't say this Yango, but considering Trundle a counter to Rammus is silly. If you're a tank coming out of the jungle and you've gotten to the point where people have to be "Ok, lets ult and focus Rammus" you've pretty much done your job. When I get to this point as Rammus I feel great about it because my Graves/Vayne/Sivir is gonna shred your whole team
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United States47024 Posts
On February 11 2012 03:28 Terranasaur wrote:
And I know you didn't say this Yango, but considering Trundle a counter to Rammus is silly. If you're a tank coming out of the jungle and you've gotten to the point where people have to be "Ok, lets ult and focus Rammus" you've pretty much done your job. When I get to this point as Rammus I feel great about it because my Graves/Vayne/Sivir is gonna shred your whole team
Trundle vs. Rammus isn't about ulting and focusing him. It's about the fact that when you shred his resists, that's 6 seconds where he has to be more careful about how he engages, or he'll take a lot of heat from even just incidental AoE--plus the fact that Pillar makes any non-jump-based engagement by a melee more awkward. Given that the effectiveness of Rammus' engagement power is both somewhat time-sensitive (based on Powerball), and heavily sensitive to positioning (ult placement, low taunt range), these factors make it annoying for him to engage properly against Trundle.
It doesn't fix the problem that Trundle is still awkward vs. Rammus in the jungling phase, but Trundle is still fairly well off against Rammus beyond that.
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On February 11 2012 03:28 Terranasaur wrote:
1) You can't compare the damage from Trundle Q+Ult to Phoenix stance. Udyr can spam stances all day, Trundle's ult isn't going to be up for every gank and his use of both skills costs twice as mana.
2) Ya. But when Udyr runs at you, he stuns you when he gets there.
3) Parrrrrley and Snowball both do quite a bit of damage as well as slow.
I don't think Trundle is an awful ganker, and from a laning perspective it really sucks when a Pillar gets thrown between me and my tower, however, I think there are much stronger choices in the jungle, both for clearing and for ganking than trundle.
And I know you didn't say this Yango, but considering Trundle a counter to Rammus is silly. If you're a tank coming out of the jungle and you've gotten to the point where people have to be "Ok, lets ult and focus Rammus" you've pretty much done your job. When I get to this point as Rammus I feel great about it because my Graves/Vayne/Sivir is gonna shred your whole team
I actually don't know about that. It depends on how much cd cost (outside trundle ult, which you're going to use on rammus anyways) and relative time it takes to kill rammus compared to whatever tank/bruiser champion is being thrown at the opposing team. If trundle ult allows you to kill rammus with 1 other ult cd from somebody and some other minimal CD's from ranged AD and he goes down fast, then I don't have a problem with that, your rammus can come in and die much faster than, say, my singed who is currently fucking up your other 4 champions. Obviously this isn't always the case, but just saying that by default if you're being killed as a tank means you did good isn't necessarily true.
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On February 11 2012 00:52 yenta wrote:
HS saying farm is irrelevant had an entirely different point behind it. Farm is not irrelevant in the laning phase of the game. However, at the point where they start sieging / poking Doublelift needs to be with the team as opposed to wandering off clearing jungle camps and clearing waves (hence farm is irrelevant to what the team is trying to achieve at that point in the game).
No it sounded like HS just didn't know what the meaning of irrelevant was. DL is always close enough to help the team. And to be fair, I don't think HSGG has any right to accuse anyone of ignoring the team and just farming.
On February 11 2012 00:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 00:20 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
I didn't think their comp was that great. Any engage from a balanced team (no shaco) would have left them at a loss early game. You can call it a poke comp but the only big poke are cait's ult and nidalee spears. The whole basis of that team-comp is to punish a team that does not pick a reliable initiate, and abusing the fact that Trundle pillar disrupts most unreliable forms of initiation. Obviously picking a poke comp into a team with hard initiating power is a huge screwup at the ban/pick phase, but I'm fairly certain all the top teams recognize this, particularly since I remember Jatt making note of this about Trundle when he still played. Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 00:20 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Also, I don't understand why people say MBR is a bad item. Very few people ever build more MR than their armor, and it adds a lot of magic damage and dps overall on anyone that isn't going IE, Pdancer That's the problem. All magic damage proc items have to be efficient based on their 1-2 item midgame DPS. At that midgame stage, MBR's %-based damage makes it less cost-efficient than Wit's or Triforce. At the stage in the game where the %-based damage has picked up, it gets surpassed by AD-based item setups. There's no point in the game where it's reliably good compared to other options.
This makes sense to me. It's still probably more efficient than trinity force on a lot of champions.
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On February 11 2012 03:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 03:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
And its damn near impossible to get 10k gold in the jungle.
Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 03:18 Seuss wrote:
Trundle's ganking/map presence is fine. The problem is less the strength of his ganking and more that he's utterly reliant on being successful with his ganks to have much relevance later in the game (i.e. Xin Zhao syndrome).
If you don't have map presence as Trundle you're probably trying too hard to farm the jungle. The only reason this "syndrome" exists is because people don't play supportive laners that cede farm to junglers later in the game, so their development is entirely centered on their ability to get farmed during the jungling phase. Consider that more than 2/3-3/4 of the farm in a game will come from farming outside of the laning phase, your gold income should be UTTERLY IRRELEVANT to what lane/role you take, and more related to how the team chooses to assign post-laning farm to you. A more apt name for it would be "4-carry syndrome".
Gold income isn't an absolute. The question of "when" is almost as important as the question of "how much". During the laning phase a jungler will have less income, which means they will enter the post-laning phase with less farm/fewer items unless they had a number of successful ganks or covered lanes abnormally often.
You may give farm thereafter to the jungler, but that doesn't change that their farm up to that point is less by virtue of jungling and asserting map control. Depending on where you are in a given game your role is not utterly irrelevant to your farm.
Trundle/Xin Zhao happen to get a raw deal out of the "4-carry syndrome". It's hard to make an argument for picking them when they're likely to fall behind in the first place and will need farm to stay relevant, when you could pick stronger junglers who don't need the late-game farm to be relevant and just feed it all to a better scaling champion.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 11 2012 03:39 Seuss wrote:
Trundle/Xin Zhao happen to get a raw deal out of the "4-carry syndrome". It's hard to make an argument for picking them when they're likely to fall behind in the first place and will need farm to stay relevant, when you could pick stronger junglers who don't need the late-game farm to be relevant and just feed it all to a better scaling champion.
Except for the fact that these types of carry junglers pair up naturally with heroes that are monstrously strong immediately out of the laning phase but lose steam throughout the rest of the game (e.g. Garen, Leblanc, etc.).
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@barbsq what you are describing is the ideal situation for your team. Where you have a Singed and all that. I guess I'm trying to say that when you pick Trundle to counter Rammus you're giving Rammus all the control. All of my initiates are on a much shorter CD than your ultimate, so if I powerball in and get ulted, and can choose to continue the engagement, or back off and try again in 6 seconds when the ult wears off. I don't know the CD for Trundle Ult off the top of my head, but I think its like 80/70/60. That is a lot of downtime for your counter. When its down, you can still use Pillar to peel and all that, but I can feel free to go in guns blazin.
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trundle is great against really fed bruisers because he makes them unable to do their proper job, and if they ever attempt to (i.e. walk in front of their team to initiate or soak up poke for an initiate etc.) his ult will wreck them. when udyr was considered an OP jungler (dignitas was wrecking tourneys etc.) trundle was found to be a very effective counterpick due to his ultimate wrecking udyr's efficiency - likewise, in a game between CLG and some EU team maybe slightly before or after IEM guangzhou, hotshot's cho was wrecked by a trundle pick from the EU team.
i dont think considering trundle a counter to rammus is silly - trundle's farming rate only increases while rammus's falls off, he has good counterganking ability against rammus (his pillar is the perfect disengage for mid tower engagements) - while rammus still has far greater ability to gank the sidelanes, most other junglers would not be able to prevent that efficiently either, and the point at which you can say "let's ult and focus rammus" is often as early as the first dragon. if they attempt to take drag, a well placed ult (especially if he is using DBC) will make trundle invincible while giving rammus near negative defensive stats, making him a piece of paper to be shredded. lategame, rammus has difficulty initiating or doing his job properly if trundle pillars correctly, and if rammus does attempt to initiate with flash, a well placed pillar can cut or slow the rest of his team while a trundle ult will wreck rammus and let his team destroy him quickly.
trundle does need a greater amount of farm than most single target junglers can achieve out of the jungle reasonably, but as yango said, i think many APs can afford to stop afk-clearing midlane at some point and gank and set up kills and easier farm / objectives for their other carries, returning as needed if ganks are unsuccessful or to reach key item builds. for some casters like kass, this core may be as little as a catalyst and tear combined with blue buff to allow for extreme mobility and charges on his ultimate - others may want to finish their RoA or several drings and sorcs first, etc.
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On February 11 2012 03:43 Terranasaur wrote:
@barbsq what you are describing is the ideal situation for your team. Where you have a Singed and all that. I guess I'm trying to say that when you pick Trundle to counter Rammus you're giving Rammus all the control. All of my initiates are on a much shorter CD than your ultimate, so if I powerball in and get ulted, and can choose to continue the engagement, or back off and try again in 6 seconds when the ult wears off. I don't know the CD for Trundle Ult off the top of my head, but I think its like 80/70/60. That is a lot of downtime for your counter. When its down, you can still use Pillar to peel and all that, but I can feel free to go in guns blazin.
I dunno if people may have noticed, I just have a serious aversion to blanket statements, when ppl say things that I interpret as 'rammus being focused and killed is always good because it means my AD carries are doing work', I put on my fighting gloves. What you say is true in situations where rammus is SOO scary that you're forced to preempt his engagements. most of the time, however, it's really not hard to just wait for rammus to engage. He's an 0 to 100% sort of initiation champ. He really can't disengage once he's hit somebody, so I don't think ulting a rammus at the one point where he doesn't have to commit is ideal when he's such a binary initiation champion.
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On February 11 2012 03:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote:
Then why not play trundle as a support and take him for the ult. Cuz he CERTAINLY isnt worth wasting your jungle slot on ATM. He just doesnt bring enough to the table. His map presence is low, his ganking is pretty bad (lack of damage compared to others, still has to run at you, no hard cc) and his late game is pretty terrible because there are no real good build options for him. What, what, and WHAT? Since when was Trundle's ganking "pretty bad"? 1) Damage may be lower than Udyr/Shyv, but not by appreciably before 6, and after 6 it is comparable/better because of how much comparative damage your ult puts into a gank. 5th rank Phoenix is 55 damage per second. 5th rank Trundle Q is +40 AD--and you will attack at a rate of ~1 attack per second or better with W. The per-3rd attack proc from Phoenix is roughly equivalent to the damage from the actual activation of Trundle Q, so overall damage output is only slightly behind, and again, usage of the ultimate completely closes that in-gank damage gap. While his AoE damage is drastically worse in that comparison, that's rarely relevant in the context of a gank. For single-target damage in a gank, Trundle's damage output really isn't that much worse than Udyr. 2) Still has to run at you? So do Udyr, Skarner, and Shyvana. In fact, Contaminate is both stronger and practically longer-lasting than both Bear Stance and Crystalline Exoskeleton, so Trundle performs BETTER in this department than Udyr and Skarner. 3) No hard CC--but Trundle has a reliable ranged slow--that happens to outrange the 3 other reliable ranged slows available to common junglers. Somehow Nunu's and Gangplank's ranged slows make them monster gankers, but Trundle's makes him terrible?
1) Not only is Phoenix the AoE damage, but it also gives him 48 AP and 24 AD, and it doesn't need a target and is up whenever he wants. I'd rather have that. Plus Turtle is a much more reliable defensive tool than Trundle ult.
2) You can leave Contaminate, and once Udyr and Skarner get on you, you don't escape. Sure, Trundle might get there a second or two sooner, but there's nothing really stopping the target from just getting away at that point.
3) Pillar isn't really "reliable". Maybe more so than GP ult, but it's also a much smaller area that's much easier to step out of. Anyone with a jump type ability just ignores it, which is almost all bot laners and some mids.
In a static environment with all favorable conditions, I'd say Trundle is just as good. I just think he's much easier to deal with than any of the other prevalent junglers. He also doesn't have a consistent strength in the late game. You miss a pillar, the enemy deals with your ult (by getting that champ out of there or spell shielding it), then you can't do much. Udyr, Skarner, Shy, and Lee are all consistently strong and generally don't rely on binary states like that. Except like, Lee's Q or Shy not having full fury, but those are not as big of a deal.
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On February 11 2012 03:53 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 03:43 Terranasaur wrote:
@barbsq what you are describing is the ideal situation for your team. Where you have a Singed and all that. I guess I'm trying to say that when you pick Trundle to counter Rammus you're giving Rammus all the control. All of my initiates are on a much shorter CD than your ultimate, so if I powerball in and get ulted, and can choose to continue the engagement, or back off and try again in 6 seconds when the ult wears off. I don't know the CD for Trundle Ult off the top of my head, but I think its like 80/70/60. That is a lot of downtime for your counter. When its down, you can still use Pillar to peel and all that, but I can feel free to go in guns blazin. I dunno if people may have noticed, I just have a serious aversion to blanket statements, when ppl say things that I interpret as 'rammus being focused and killed is always good because it means my AD carries are doing work', I put on my fighting gloves. What you say is true in situations where rammus is SOO scary that you're forced to preempt his engagements. most of the time, however, it's really not hard to just wait for rammus to engage. He's an 0 to 100% sort of initiation champ. He really can't disengage once he's hit somebody, so I don't think ulting a rammus at the one point where he doesn't have to commit is ideal when he's such a binary initiation champion.
See, and this is where we have a disconnect. When I made that statement I didn't mean "this is true fact 100% of the time," I simply meant, "this is how it works out most often in my experience." I have a hard time with people that try to counter every statement with a "Ya, BUT..." That just isn't how my brain works.
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On February 11 2012 03:58 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 03:13 TheYango wrote:On February 11 2012 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote:
Then why not play trundle as a support and take him for the ult. Cuz he CERTAINLY isnt worth wasting your jungle slot on ATM. He just doesnt bring enough to the table. His map presence is low, his ganking is pretty bad (lack of damage compared to others, still has to run at you, no hard cc) and his late game is pretty terrible because there are no real good build options for him. What, what, and WHAT? Since when was Trundle's ganking "pretty bad"? 1) Damage may be lower than Udyr/Shyv, but not by appreciably before 6, and after 6 it is comparable/better because of how much comparative damage your ult puts into a gank. 5th rank Phoenix is 55 damage per second. 5th rank Trundle Q is +40 AD--and you will attack at a rate of ~1 attack per second or better with W. The per-3rd attack proc from Phoenix is roughly equivalent to the damage from the actual activation of Trundle Q, so overall damage output is only slightly behind, and again, usage of the ultimate completely closes that in-gank damage gap. While his AoE damage is drastically worse in that comparison, that's rarely relevant in the context of a gank. For single-target damage in a gank, Trundle's damage output really isn't that much worse than Udyr. 2) Still has to run at you? So do Udyr, Skarner, and Shyvana. In fact, Contaminate is both stronger and practically longer-lasting than both Bear Stance and Crystalline Exoskeleton, so Trundle performs BETTER in this department than Udyr and Skarner. 3) No hard CC--but Trundle has a reliable ranged slow--that happens to outrange the 3 other reliable ranged slows available to common junglers. Somehow Nunu's and Gangplank's ranged slows make them monster gankers, but Trundle's makes him terrible? 1) Not only is Phoenix the AoE damage, but it also gives him 48 AP and 24 AD, and it doesn't need a target and is up whenever he wants. I'd rather have that. Plus Turtle is a much more reliable defensive tool than Trundle ult. 2) You can leave Contaminate, and once Udyr and Skarner get on you, you don't escape. Sure, Trundle might get there a second or two sooner, but there's nothing really stopping the target from just getting away at that point. 3) Pillar isn't really "reliable". Maybe more so than GP ult, but it's also a much smaller area that's much easier to step out of. Anyone with a jump type ability just ignores it, which is almost all bot laners and some mids. In a static environment with all favorable conditions, I'd say Trundle is just as good. I just think he's much easier to deal with than any of the other prevalent junglers. He also doesn't have a consistent strength in the late game. You miss a pillar, the enemy deals with your ult (by getting that champ out of there or spell shielding it), then you can't do much. Udyr, Skarner, Shy, and Lee are all consistently strong and generally don't rely on binary states like that. Except like, Lee's Q or Shy not having full fury, but those are not as big of a deal.
1. his damage is not as good - but damage is usually not the limiting factor in most ganks, its mobility spells / summoners and CC from the ganking side
2. ONCE they get on you. however, against a smart opponent who does not overextend himself beyond the halfway point at any time, most enemies can get away without even using a summoner spell unless you or the jungler uses a flash for a stun at any point. the thing is while Udyr and skarner have to run at an opponent, trundle can essentially set up CC for his laner to follow up with from any brush while ganking - forcing summoners with the correct laner much more easily. not necessarily stronger than skarner or udyr (especially one with flash), but they do function differently and indeed without flash it is easier to set up kills or force summoners.
3. almost no supports, almost no APs - and you can wait for them to use the mobility skill in question before pillaring if needed, especially if they often use it for harass and set up obvious harassment routines
it should be almost impossible to spell shield trundle ult lategame unless he is a. too hasty or b. his team is not there, in which case why is he ulting by himself lategame?
his lategame is definitely one of the strongest amongst junglers in the right teamcomp, and against a very fed bruiser it absolutely changes the dynamic of the game. he is not a unconditionally strong jungler as perhaps udyr is, but his strengths are worth consideration.
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United States37500 Posts
Been away for a bit (aka, not able to check TL once an hour, huehue) so I just had to read through the past 8 pages. Wanted to chime in on two points:
1. Someone asked about LoL featured streams but Loco will be featured relatively soon. Same with Smash and two other users. This is obviously a warranted promotion for these guys, so a preemptive congrats. :3
2. Trundle is stupidly strong... in 5s setting. I wouldn't touch him in solo q with a 10 foot pole (hi, I use imperial measurements, derp)
His pillar is flat out stronk even as a way to initiate and siege, not just catching people out of position. That being said, you really, really need to team comp around a pick like Trundle. Take a look at saint on Trundle with CLG runs their poke comp. Tell me how it is not demoralizing to be on the receiving end of that shit.
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On February 11 2012 04:07 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 03:58 Requizen wrote:On February 11 2012 03:13 TheYango wrote:On February 11 2012 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote:
Then why not play trundle as a support and take him for the ult. Cuz he CERTAINLY isnt worth wasting your jungle slot on ATM. He just doesnt bring enough to the table. His map presence is low, his ganking is pretty bad (lack of damage compared to others, still has to run at you, no hard cc) and his late game is pretty terrible because there are no real good build options for him. What, what, and WHAT? Since when was Trundle's ganking "pretty bad"? 1) Damage may be lower than Udyr/Shyv, but not by appreciably before 6, and after 6 it is comparable/better because of how much comparative damage your ult puts into a gank. 5th rank Phoenix is 55 damage per second. 5th rank Trundle Q is +40 AD--and you will attack at a rate of ~1 attack per second or better with W. The per-3rd attack proc from Phoenix is roughly equivalent to the damage from the actual activation of Trundle Q, so overall damage output is only slightly behind, and again, usage of the ultimate completely closes that in-gank damage gap. While his AoE damage is drastically worse in that comparison, that's rarely relevant in the context of a gank. For single-target damage in a gank, Trundle's damage output really isn't that much worse than Udyr. 2) Still has to run at you? So do Udyr, Skarner, and Shyvana. In fact, Contaminate is both stronger and practically longer-lasting than both Bear Stance and Crystalline Exoskeleton, so Trundle performs BETTER in this department than Udyr and Skarner. 3) No hard CC--but Trundle has a reliable ranged slow--that happens to outrange the 3 other reliable ranged slows available to common junglers. Somehow Nunu's and Gangplank's ranged slows make them monster gankers, but Trundle's makes him terrible? 1) Not only is Phoenix the AoE damage, but it also gives him 48 AP and 24 AD, and it doesn't need a target and is up whenever he wants. I'd rather have that. Plus Turtle is a much more reliable defensive tool than Trundle ult. 2) You can leave Contaminate, and once Udyr and Skarner get on you, you don't escape. Sure, Trundle might get there a second or two sooner, but there's nothing really stopping the target from just getting away at that point. 3) Pillar isn't really "reliable". Maybe more so than GP ult, but it's also a much smaller area that's much easier to step out of. Anyone with a jump type ability just ignores it, which is almost all bot laners and some mids. In a static environment with all favorable conditions, I'd say Trundle is just as good. I just think he's much easier to deal with than any of the other prevalent junglers. He also doesn't have a consistent strength in the late game. You miss a pillar, the enemy deals with your ult (by getting that champ out of there or spell shielding it), then you can't do much. Udyr, Skarner, Shy, and Lee are all consistently strong and generally don't rely on binary states like that. Except like, Lee's Q or Shy not having full fury, but those are not as big of a deal. 1. his damage is not as good - but damage is usually not the limiting factor in most ganks, its mobility spells / summoners and CC from the ganking side 2. ONCE they get on you. however, against a smart opponent who does not overextend himself beyond the halfway point at any time, most enemies can get away without even using a summoner spell unless you or the jungler uses a flash for a stun at any point. the thing is while Udyr and skarner have to run at an opponent, trundle can essentially set up CC for his laner to follow up with from any brush while ganking - forcing summoners with the correct laner much more easily. not necessarily stronger than skarner or udyr (especially one with flash), but they do function differently and indeed without flash it is easier to set up kills or force summoners. 3. almost no supports, almost no APs - and you can wait for them to use the mobility skill in question before pillaring if needed, especially if they often use it for harass and set up obvious harassment routines it should be almost impossible to spell shield trundle ult lategame unless he is a. too hasty or b. his team is not there, in which case why is he ulting by himself lategame? his lategame is definitely one of the strongest amongst junglers in the right teamcomp, and against a very fed bruiser it absolutely changes the dynamic of the game. he is not a unconditionally strong jungler as perhaps udyr is, but his strengths are worth consideration.
I'd like to talk about your point in 2. Do you really think the utility of Pillar makes up for the lack of sticking power/hard CC?
This is basically the point that this discussion boils down to, I think. Does slightly high utility make up for lower damage and tankiness? Possibly, given the right teamcomp, but even then, it comes down to my last point. I feel consistency is better than specific strengths. Where Trundle's pillar and Ult are godmode in certain situations, they're not consistently strong. I'd much rather have the consistent strength of Udyr, Skarner, or hell, even GP than bring Trundle on the chance that he'll win a teamfight through perfect pillar placement and maybe the enemy bruiser will be the biggest threat and Trundle ult will take him out of the game.
Too much has to go right for Trundle to be at full capacity, I'm saying. I think if you want consistent results, you should take a champ that has consistent strength. Same reason I don't like Xin or Shaco or other snowball champs/junglers.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:21 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:07 Navi wrote:On February 11 2012 03:58 Requizen wrote:On February 11 2012 03:13 TheYango wrote:On February 11 2012 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote:
Then why not play trundle as a support and take him for the ult. Cuz he CERTAINLY isnt worth wasting your jungle slot on ATM. He just doesnt bring enough to the table. His map presence is low, his ganking is pretty bad (lack of damage compared to others, still has to run at you, no hard cc) and his late game is pretty terrible because there are no real good build options for him. What, what, and WHAT? Since when was Trundle's ganking "pretty bad"? 1) Damage may be lower than Udyr/Shyv, but not by appreciably before 6, and after 6 it is comparable/better because of how much comparative damage your ult puts into a gank. 5th rank Phoenix is 55 damage per second. 5th rank Trundle Q is +40 AD--and you will attack at a rate of ~1 attack per second or better with W. The per-3rd attack proc from Phoenix is roughly equivalent to the damage from the actual activation of Trundle Q, so overall damage output is only slightly behind, and again, usage of the ultimate completely closes that in-gank damage gap. While his AoE damage is drastically worse in that comparison, that's rarely relevant in the context of a gank. For single-target damage in a gank, Trundle's damage output really isn't that much worse than Udyr. 2) Still has to run at you? So do Udyr, Skarner, and Shyvana. In fact, Contaminate is both stronger and practically longer-lasting than both Bear Stance and Crystalline Exoskeleton, so Trundle performs BETTER in this department than Udyr and Skarner. 3) No hard CC--but Trundle has a reliable ranged slow--that happens to outrange the 3 other reliable ranged slows available to common junglers. Somehow Nunu's and Gangplank's ranged slows make them monster gankers, but Trundle's makes him terrible? 1) Not only is Phoenix the AoE damage, but it also gives him 48 AP and 24 AD, and it doesn't need a target and is up whenever he wants. I'd rather have that. Plus Turtle is a much more reliable defensive tool than Trundle ult. 2) You can leave Contaminate, and once Udyr and Skarner get on you, you don't escape. Sure, Trundle might get there a second or two sooner, but there's nothing really stopping the target from just getting away at that point. 3) Pillar isn't really "reliable". Maybe more so than GP ult, but it's also a much smaller area that's much easier to step out of. Anyone with a jump type ability just ignores it, which is almost all bot laners and some mids. In a static environment with all favorable conditions, I'd say Trundle is just as good. I just think he's much easier to deal with than any of the other prevalent junglers. He also doesn't have a consistent strength in the late game. You miss a pillar, the enemy deals with your ult (by getting that champ out of there or spell shielding it), then you can't do much. Udyr, Skarner, Shy, and Lee are all consistently strong and generally don't rely on binary states like that. Except like, Lee's Q or Shy not having full fury, but those are not as big of a deal. 1. his damage is not as good - but damage is usually not the limiting factor in most ganks, its mobility spells / summoners and CC from the ganking side 2. ONCE they get on you. however, against a smart opponent who does not overextend himself beyond the halfway point at any time, most enemies can get away without even using a summoner spell unless you or the jungler uses a flash for a stun at any point. the thing is while Udyr and skarner have to run at an opponent, trundle can essentially set up CC for his laner to follow up with from any brush while ganking - forcing summoners with the correct laner much more easily. not necessarily stronger than skarner or udyr (especially one with flash), but they do function differently and indeed without flash it is easier to set up kills or force summoners. 3. almost no supports, almost no APs - and you can wait for them to use the mobility skill in question before pillaring if needed, especially if they often use it for harass and set up obvious harassment routines it should be almost impossible to spell shield trundle ult lategame unless he is a. too hasty or b. his team is not there, in which case why is he ulting by himself lategame? his lategame is definitely one of the strongest amongst junglers in the right teamcomp, and against a very fed bruiser it absolutely changes the dynamic of the game. he is not a unconditionally strong jungler as perhaps udyr is, but his strengths are worth consideration. I'd like to talk about your point in 2. Do you really think the utility of Pillar makes up for the lack of sticking power/hard CC? This is basically the point that this discussion boils down to, I think. Does slightly high utility make up for lower damage and tankiness? Possibly, given the right teamcomp, but even then, it comes down to my last point. I feel consistency is better than specific strengths. Where Trundle's pillar and Ult are godmode in certain situations, they're not consistently strong. I'd much rather have the consistent strength of Udyr, Skarner, or hell, even GP than bring Trundle on the chance that he'll win a teamfight through perfect pillar placement and maybe the enemy bruiser will be the biggest threat and Trundle ult will take him out of the game. Too much has to go right for Trundle to be at full capacity, I'm saying. I think if you want consistent results, you should take a champ that has consistent strength. Same reason I don't like Xin or Shaco or other snowball champs/junglers.
I'm not Navi, but...
Yes, sometimes Pillar's utility (terrain block and slow) will make up for hard CC. It's going to be situational though.
For example, if enemy team has picked Irelia and Ali; your team has a Malphite, how team fights will usually end up is Irelia will Bladesurge to get near your squishes and Malphite will ulti on top of their carries (with Ali trying to peel most likely). If you are Trundle, you can Pillar to separate Irelia from your carries and then ulti so your team can focus down Irelia if she dove in too fast. Pillar can also function offensively to keep Ali away from defending enemy carries. In this specific scenario, I would say Trundle is a better pick because of Pillar, than say a Udyr who can get CC'd by that Ali and then get kited. (Slayer91 taught me that Udyr is bad at peeling, so we won't even talk about trying to defend your carry from an Irelia)
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I don't remember the dude's name, but somewhere around 2K last season I played Irelia vs. a team with a stupidly good Trundle and late game he couldn't actually keep me off his squishies and after the game he said that he considered late game Irelia the hardest bruiser for Trundle to deal with. Not sure if that's true or if he had bad perception of how it plays out late game, but that's the closest thing I have to a contribution about Trundle's late game discussion =3.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:37 Mogwai wrote:
I don't remember the dude's name, but somewhere around 2K last season I played Irelia vs. a team with a stupidly good Trundle and late game he couldn't actually keep me off his squishies and after the game he said that he considered late game Irelia the hardest bruiser for Trundle to deal with. Not sure if that's true or if he had bad perception of how it plays out late game, but that's the closest thing I have to a contribution about Trundle's late game discussion =3.
Ok, maybe Irelia isn't the best example because she'll have a full passive to work with. Trundle's slow won't slow as much if she's Irelia vs 5.
Substitute in WuKong, Trynd, or some other AD top laner instead and my argument still has some merit.
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EPT
