EPT[Patch 1.0.0.133: Ziggs] General Discussion - Page 142
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
On February 10 2012 22:29 FR4CT4L wrote: http://www.own3d.tv/clgame#/watch/445654 This is a VoD of a recent CLG scrim against Curse were they use a poke comp with a Trundle jungle. Pay particular attention to the use of his pillar to force people into Nidalee spears or to disengage from a full committed team fight so they can go back to slowly whittling curse down and then fighting at a large advantage. Trundle is a very effective jungle pick for this kind of niche comp. I didn't think their comp was that great. Any engage from a balanced team (no shaco) would have left them at a loss early game. You can call it a poke comp but the only big poke are cait's ult and nidalee spears. I also don't like HS saying farm is irrelevant. I personally feel the same way about farm in LoL as I do in Starcraft's economy. If it's safe to get more resources, then you should do it. If anything, once Doublelift got 6 items on his Caitlyn from farming those wraiths XD, Hotshot became irrelevant. Also, I don't understand why people say MBR is a bad item. Very few people ever build more MR than their armor, and it adds a lot of magic damage and dps overall on anyone that isn't going IE, Pdancer | ||
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 10 2012 21:27 Rixxe wrote: Might be just me at my shockingly bad ELO, but i never see anyone jungle with Trundle anymore... It's kind of easy to see why: GP i can do just fine with boots and 3 pots, try that with Trundle and i just had to go back or i'd die. Just compare him with Shyvana, its pretty stupid how bad he is compared then. Just me who thinks hes a bit behind these days? Trundle starts fine with Boots+3pot, and clears literally at full health the entire time with Vamp. You're doing something wrong. Compare him to Shyvana? They fill entirely different roles. Shyvana is a midgame semi-carry that has high ability base damages and survivability, but tapers off lategame from mediocre scaling. Trundle is a more lategame-oriented carry due to steroids that scale off of enemy survivability, and strong mobility/utility spells. What is there to compare? On February 10 2012 22:12 Rixxe wrote: Perhaps he is still viable, i just think with the releases of some of the new junglers (and the fact that some champions that are not even stated as junglers do better) really makes it a bit of a daft pick. Trundle's problem is twofold, and neither has to do with the prominence of new strong junglers. The first is that the changes to the new jungle diminished the strength of his prior advantages. Most obvious is how Baron and Dragon are immune to armor/MR shred, but also the faster timers on small camps reduced the strength of small camp counterjungling, which Trundle was extremely good at, due to his mobility and ability to control space in the jungle. The second is the shift in the metagame. Junglers are played less now in the higher position carry roles, and more commonly in the more supportive roles. Trundle is absolutely worthless as a lower-position jungler. He needs to get his farm to shine lategame, like Olaf, which means you need supportive solo laners to be able to cede farm and allow you to match/exceed solo lane farm. People stopped doing that for some reason. Despite several US teams being very good at playing to this style, everyone went back to putting their carries into the lanes. Also related is the fact that more teams retain the ability to play double AP teams. Trundle generally doesn't do well against these, both because the large amount of incidental AoE makes it hard for him to engage, and the lack of a stand-out bruiser or melee carry itemizing heavily for resist-based survivability drastically diminishes the usefulness of his ultimate. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 11 2012 00:20 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: I didn't think their comp was that great. Any engage from a balanced team (no shaco) would have left them at a loss early game. You can call it a poke comp but the only big poke are cait's ult and nidalee spears. The whole basis of that team-comp is to punish a team that does not pick a reliable initiate, and abusing the fact that Trundle pillar disrupts most unreliable forms of initiation. Obviously picking a poke comp into a team with hard initiating power is a huge screwup at the ban/pick phase, but I'm fairly certain all the top teams recognize this, particularly since I remember Jatt making note of this about Trundle when he still played. On February 11 2012 00:20 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Also, I don't understand why people say MBR is a bad item. Very few people ever build more MR than their armor, and it adds a lot of magic damage and dps overall on anyone that isn't going IE, Pdancer That's the problem. All magic damage proc items have to be efficient based on their 1-2 item midgame DPS. At that midgame stage, MBR's %-based damage makes it less cost-efficient than Wit's or Triforce. At the stage in the game where the %-based damage has picked up, it gets surpassed by AD-based item setups. There's no point in the game where it's reliably good compared to other options. On February 11 2012 00:37 Slayer91 wrote: I would say the reason Trundle doesn't get the farm he needs is because unlike similar champs like udyr and shyvana he doesn't farm quickly either, and I would argue he's worse with farm than both of those champions, but trundles far better without farm. That's sort of tied into what I said. Because he can't farm jungle as fast as those two, he has to get it off the lanes, and people aren't playing comps that allow for lanes to give up farm because they're playing carry laners rather than supportive laners. And I disagree that he's worse with farm than Udyr/Shyvana. Both have high base damage abilities that don't scale amazingly well with items. Neither of them also have a defensive steroid that scales as amazingly as Trundle ultimate. They also have higher baseline survivability, which means they have an easier time engaging midgame fights, even with mediocre farm--whereas if Trundle is behind on gold or levels, engaging midgame fights properly is a nightmare, and always has been. | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
On February 11 2012 00:20 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: I didn't think their comp was that great. Any engage from a balanced team (no shaco) would have left them at a loss early game. You can call it a poke comp but the only big poke are cait's ult and nidalee spears. I also don't like HS saying farm is irrelevant. I personally feel the same way about farm in LoL as I do in Starcraft's economy. If it's safe to get more resources, then you should do it. If anything, once Doublelift got 6 items on his Caitlyn from farming those wraiths XD, Hotshot became irrelevant. Also, I don't understand why people say MBR is a bad item. Very few people ever build more MR than their armor, and it adds a lot of magic damage and dps overall on anyone that isn't going IE, Pdancer No, their team comp was fine but they didn't play it perfectly which is probably why you got the impression that it wasn't great. I don't think anyone except Hotshot actually knew how to play it properly, since they got overeager and tried to go for kills. HS is right that farm is largely irrelevant because the fight is between Hotshot's spears and the enemy's MR and as long as he does significant damage they will win eventually. It doesn't matter whether you siege 2 tanks or 4 tanks on the enemy's cliff, because you stop them from mining either way. 6 item Caitlyn isn't a factor because they would still lose in a straight up fight against 6 item Kog'maw unless the enemy gets caught out of position. edit: Also Doublelift's farming habits were far from safe, he would have given up huge positional advantages several times if his team didn't yell at him. It's hardly the same as in Starcraft because you risk much less using workers to gather resources. Sending Doublelift to farm is like sending your Colossus to mine. | ||
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Rixxe
United Kingdom136 Posts
On February 11 2012 00:32 TheYango wrote: Trundle starts fine with Boots+3pot, and clears literally at full health the entire time with Vamp. You're doing something wrong. Compare him to Shyvana? They fill entirely different roles. Shyvana is a midgame semi-carry that has high ability base damages and survivability, but tapers off lategame from mediocre scaling. Trundle is a more lategame-oriented carry due to steroids that scale off of enemy survivability, and strong mobility/utility spells. What is there to compare? Trundle's problem is twofold, and neither has to do with the prominence of new strong junglers. The first is that the changes to the new jungle diminished the strength of his prior advantages. Most obvious is how Baron and Dragon are immune to armor/MR shred, but also the faster timers on small camps reduced the strength of small camp counterjungling, which Trundle was extremely good at, due to his mobility and ability to control space in the jungle. The second is the shift in the metagame. Junglers are played less now in the higher position carry roles, and more commonly in the more supportive roles. Trundle is absolutely worthless as a lower-position jungler. He needs to get his farm to shine lategame, like Olaf, which means you need supportive solo laners to be able to cede farm and allow you to match/exceed solo lane farm. People stopped doing that for some reason. Despite several US teams being very good at playing to this style, everyone went back to putting their carries into the lanes. Also related is the fact that more teams retain the ability to play double AP teams. Trundle generally doesn't do well against these, both because the large amount of incidental AoE makes it hard for him to engage, and the lack of a stand-out bruiser or melee carry itemizing heavily for resist-based survivability drastically diminishes the usefulness of his ultimate. Thanks for the insight. Perhaps i need to give him another try. It's interesting how not so long ago he was used (as others have said) constantly, and now hardly at all. | ||
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yenta
Poland1142 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21961 Posts
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yenta
Poland1142 Posts
Edit: Actually, if I think about it more, they kept repeating that same mistake later in the same match. At one point they were chasing one or two of the AL team through their top jungle - and stubbornly walked into a full on flank. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
The other problem he has is that his ultimate is terrible. It really doesnt DO anything for him. Optimally you need to run through the enemy team to the tank, then run through the team to the carry. All the while getting beat to shit. And his ult just isnt even that good. You barely leech life, and in terms of abilities that give stat bonuses id MUCH rather have shy's ult than trundles. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:12 Two_DoWn wrote: Trundle isnt very good simply because the ONLY thing that he brings to a team is his pillar. Thats it. And even then other characters have better peel/disengage abilities than pillar (for example, alistar is MUCH better in a poke comp than trundle can ever hope to be). The other problem he has is that his ultimate is terrible. It really doesnt DO anything for him. Optimally you need to run through the enemy team to the tank, then run through the team to the carry. All the while getting beat to shit. And his ult just isnt even that good. You barely leech life, and in terms of abilities that give stat bonuses id MUCH rather have shy's ult than trundles. Such an egocentric thought process, lol. Trundle's ult isn't amazing for himself. It's amazing AGAINST the target. How do you take down a fed bruiser? You throw trundle ult at him, focus him, and watch as he dies faster than your average squishy. | ||
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Shanba
Scotland144 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 11 2012 02:28 spinesheath wrote: Such an egocentric thought process, lol. Trundle's ult isn't amazing for himself. It's amazing AGAINST the target. How do you take down a fed bruiser? You throw trundle ult at him, focus him, and watch as he dies faster than your average squishy. Then why not play trundle as a support and take him for the ult. Cuz he CERTAINLY isnt worth wasting your jungle slot on ATM. He just doesnt bring enough to the table. His map presence is low, his ganking is pretty bad (lack of damage compared to others, still has to run at you, no hard cc) and his late game is pretty terrible because there are no real good build options for him. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
In Trundle's case he becomes nothing more than a Pillar bot and a defense-stripping Ult. That's not the worst fallback one could have, but you'd almost always be better off picking a champion who had a reasonable chance of avoiding their fallback. Trundle has other disadvantages as well, but it's those three that are the primary causes of Trundle's fall from grace. Minor tweaks to each or a complete fix to one would greatly help him in terms of viability. | ||
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