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Heed these two simple warnings. It will help make our GD a better place. Consider this fair notice to all users. Warning will be dished out this patch. Thanks. Neo, 31.01.12 |
On February 11 2012 04:21 NeoIllusions wrote:
Been away for a bit (aka, not able to check TL once an hour, huehue) so I just had to read through the past 8 pages. Wanted to chime in on two points:
1. Someone asked about LoL featured streams but Loco will be featured relatively soon. Same with Smash and two other users. This is obviously a warranted promotion for these guys, so a preemptive congrats. :3
Grats guys!
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I think my problem with trundle can pretty much be summed up as:
If I am trading away jungle speed and a pretty fair amount of map presence I want something BACK in return.
WW has a strong late game and level 6+ ult.
GP has an absurd late game
LS has some of the best ganking in the game, and the best 1v1
ATM Trundle doesnt give enough back to make up for the lack of speed and presence.
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the no shredding on Dragon/Baron was a dumb change IMO. Ignores the real problem (too low MRes on them) and instead does a blanket change that hurt trundle's solo queue presence really significantly.
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On February 11 2012 04:33 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 04:21 Requizen wrote:On February 11 2012 04:07 Navi wrote:On February 11 2012 03:58 Requizen wrote:On February 11 2012 03:13 TheYango wrote:On February 11 2012 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote:
Then why not play trundle as a support and take him for the ult. Cuz he CERTAINLY isnt worth wasting your jungle slot on ATM. He just doesnt bring enough to the table. His map presence is low, his ganking is pretty bad (lack of damage compared to others, still has to run at you, no hard cc) and his late game is pretty terrible because there are no real good build options for him. What, what, and WHAT? Since when was Trundle's ganking "pretty bad"? 1) Damage may be lower than Udyr/Shyv, but not by appreciably before 6, and after 6 it is comparable/better because of how much comparative damage your ult puts into a gank. 5th rank Phoenix is 55 damage per second. 5th rank Trundle Q is +40 AD--and you will attack at a rate of ~1 attack per second or better with W. The per-3rd attack proc from Phoenix is roughly equivalent to the damage from the actual activation of Trundle Q, so overall damage output is only slightly behind, and again, usage of the ultimate completely closes that in-gank damage gap. While his AoE damage is drastically worse in that comparison, that's rarely relevant in the context of a gank. For single-target damage in a gank, Trundle's damage output really isn't that much worse than Udyr. 2) Still has to run at you? So do Udyr, Skarner, and Shyvana. In fact, Contaminate is both stronger and practically longer-lasting than both Bear Stance and Crystalline Exoskeleton, so Trundle performs BETTER in this department than Udyr and Skarner. 3) No hard CC--but Trundle has a reliable ranged slow--that happens to outrange the 3 other reliable ranged slows available to common junglers. Somehow Nunu's and Gangplank's ranged slows make them monster gankers, but Trundle's makes him terrible? 1) Not only is Phoenix the AoE damage, but it also gives him 48 AP and 24 AD, and it doesn't need a target and is up whenever he wants. I'd rather have that. Plus Turtle is a much more reliable defensive tool than Trundle ult. 2) You can leave Contaminate, and once Udyr and Skarner get on you, you don't escape. Sure, Trundle might get there a second or two sooner, but there's nothing really stopping the target from just getting away at that point. 3) Pillar isn't really "reliable". Maybe more so than GP ult, but it's also a much smaller area that's much easier to step out of. Anyone with a jump type ability just ignores it, which is almost all bot laners and some mids. In a static environment with all favorable conditions, I'd say Trundle is just as good. I just think he's much easier to deal with than any of the other prevalent junglers. He also doesn't have a consistent strength in the late game. You miss a pillar, the enemy deals with your ult (by getting that champ out of there or spell shielding it), then you can't do much. Udyr, Skarner, Shy, and Lee are all consistently strong and generally don't rely on binary states like that. Except like, Lee's Q or Shy not having full fury, but those are not as big of a deal. 1. his damage is not as good - but damage is usually not the limiting factor in most ganks, its mobility spells / summoners and CC from the ganking side 2. ONCE they get on you. however, against a smart opponent who does not overextend himself beyond the halfway point at any time, most enemies can get away without even using a summoner spell unless you or the jungler uses a flash for a stun at any point. the thing is while Udyr and skarner have to run at an opponent, trundle can essentially set up CC for his laner to follow up with from any brush while ganking - forcing summoners with the correct laner much more easily. not necessarily stronger than skarner or udyr (especially one with flash), but they do function differently and indeed without flash it is easier to set up kills or force summoners. 3. almost no supports, almost no APs - and you can wait for them to use the mobility skill in question before pillaring if needed, especially if they often use it for harass and set up obvious harassment routines it should be almost impossible to spell shield trundle ult lategame unless he is a. too hasty or b. his team is not there, in which case why is he ulting by himself lategame? his lategame is definitely one of the strongest amongst junglers in the right teamcomp, and against a very fed bruiser it absolutely changes the dynamic of the game. he is not a unconditionally strong jungler as perhaps udyr is, but his strengths are worth consideration. I'd like to talk about your point in 2. Do you really think the utility of Pillar makes up for the lack of sticking power/hard CC? This is basically the point that this discussion boils down to, I think. Does slightly high utility make up for lower damage and tankiness? Possibly, given the right teamcomp, but even then, it comes down to my last point. I feel consistency is better than specific strengths. Where Trundle's pillar and Ult are godmode in certain situations, they're not consistently strong. I'd much rather have the consistent strength of Udyr, Skarner, or hell, even GP than bring Trundle on the chance that he'll win a teamfight through perfect pillar placement and maybe the enemy bruiser will be the biggest threat and Trundle ult will take him out of the game. Too much has to go right for Trundle to be at full capacity, I'm saying. I think if you want consistent results, you should take a champ that has consistent strength. Same reason I don't like Xin or Shaco or other snowball champs/junglers. I'm not Navi, but... Yes, sometimes Pillar's utility (terrain block and slow) will make up for hard CC. It's going to be situational though. For example, if enemy team has picked Irelia and Ali; your team has a Malphite, how team fights will usually end up is Irelia will Bladesurge to get near your squishes and Malphite will ulti on top of their carries (with Ali trying to peel most likely). If you are Trundle, you can Pillar to separate Irelia from your carries and then ulti so your team can focus down Irelia if she dove in too fast. Pillar can also function offensively to keep Ali away from defending enemy carries. In this specific scenario, I would say Trundle is a better pick because of Pillar, than say a Udyr who can get CC'd by that Ali and then get kited. (Slayer91 taught me that Udyr is bad at peeling, so we won't even talk about trying to defend your carry from an Irelia)
That's true, but what stopping the enemy team from just engaging in a favorable environment? Pillar is much less useful in open areas where you can spread out and get out of it (River, mid, most base entrances), but is much more favorable in jungles and the like. A smart engage can minimize it's effect, and quick calls for target switches can negate it's peel effect (go after Cait, pillar splits you, swap to Brand or something).
That said, yes. It's utility is super high and when it's useful, it's USEFUL. I've seen Pillars secure ganks and kills, I've seen Pillars fail horribly.
I suppose I just don't like that playstyle. Similar to why TF frustrates me (get every PAC right, win, miss one or two, lose). It's just too reliant on particulars when I like to focus on things like positioning, smart engages, and strat stuff like that.
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If anything, I'd be pillaring the enemy back line after the tank/bruiser rush in so that their team would be split and then using the effective permaslow of trinity/mallet + red that will have a literal uptime of 100% thanks to auto+q as my peel. Pillaring your own back line just makes it really difficult to help your carry.
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Oh there is some small tournament going on Fanatic vs Siphon gaming. Ro16
http://www.own3d.tv/live/10955/EG_Nhat_Nguyen
TSM going to face the winners. The prize is cameras apparently.
Fanatic
ryze, shaco (lane), udyr(jungle), nunu, ashe
Siphon Gaming
shyvanna (jungle), sona, sivir, cass, wukong
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All in all, most of my arguments might be completely off base because I haven't played Trundle in like, forever. I played him a few times on a friends account when I was first starting, so maybe if I try him again my viewpoint will change. Nice that I'm almost at 4800.
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thanks for mentioning it!
im watching it now
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On February 11 2012 03:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote:
Then why not play trundle as a support and take him for the ult. Cuz he CERTAINLY isnt worth wasting your jungle slot on ATM. He just doesnt bring enough to the table. His map presence is low, his ganking is pretty bad (lack of damage compared to others, still has to run at you, no hard cc) and his late game is pretty terrible because there are no real good build options for him. What, what, and WHAT? Since when was Trundle's ganking "pretty bad"? 1) Damage may be lower than Udyr/Shyv, but not by appreciably before 6, and after 6 it is comparable/better because of how much comparative damage your ult puts into a gank. 5th rank Phoenix is 55 damage per second. 5th rank Trundle Q is +40
Udyr R at level 9 gives 24 AD and 48 AP. That's 67 damage per second, and 212 damage every third hit, so that's a total of a 95 AD steriod as well as 67 damage per second AoE. People seem to forget about that. It's the reason pheonix does more damage than people think and tiger really isn't better sustained damage until crit comes into play.
As for peeling: Yes, unless irelia is stupidly unfarmed having 2 types of damage 1 of which doesn't scale with crit isn't good versus someone building a lot of both. Udyr can't peel like that, he has to just zone the other dudes and hope for the best. Trundles ult is one of the best anti fed irelia tools since if you let her tank everything you lose and if you ignore her you lose.
Trundle shouldn't try to keep irelia off the carries, just assume they're smart enough to survive and ult her and go deal with their real damage.
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Fnatic vs TSM bo3 next!
I'm a big fan of these bo3's pretty much right away, I feel like most LoL tournies have way too many rounds of bo1, but I guess that's due to the nature of most of the tournies.
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Lol Nhat flips a coin. TSM gets first pick. Fnatic calls hax and says screen cap or it didn't happen so Nhat goes to an online site random.org to do the coin flip. Don't think the online coin flip matters though, but funny that he actually did an online coin flip.
TSM
Pick:Sona, Lee, MF (surprise), sion, gangplank
bans morg, ryze, soraka
Fnatic
Pick: Shyvanna, Nunu,ashe, ahri, gragas
bans ziggs , cass, Leblanc
Spectator fails for Nhat 
TSM has a big lead at 18mins. 6-2 and they have gotten both dragons. They have also stolen most of the enemies blue buffs. They're up on towers as well. TSM lets them get back in the game when Baron gets stolen, Gragas + Shyvanna ult and smite. Some good split pushing lets TSM get two inhib towers, TSM still hasn't lost any of their towers. TSM wins fight at bot inhib, top pushes in to Nexus and TSM finishes the game.
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Hmm, this is a small thing, but can anyone verify, did TSM get both drakes before nash, or did Cyanide steal one? I missed it, but my friend says drakes were 2-1 for Fnatic after the nash drake.
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legendary vs sk, game was in favor of legendary but then they did some inexplicably scrubby stuff like randomly pushing second mid tower with four vs triple aoe. Very much the kind of thing I'd expect to see in solo queue. A few plays like that put SK in a dominating position, will take a miracle for legendary to turn this around.
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SK vs Legendary Game ?
Nyph and Kevin get caught and killed, Legendary goes for baron as 5, loses the 5v3 and SK gets the baron, aces them again and wins the game. Galio ulted most of LG in baron pit, and Trist cleaned up.
Legendary had the kill advantage for most of the game but Graves got outfarmed super hard by Candypanda Trist and LG never was able to build a sizable gold advantage before the Galio ult at mid second tower gave SK the advantage for the rest of the game.
TSM vs Fnatic game 2 coming up next.
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Is the evelynn pick serious in TSM vs Fnactic or ?
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On February 11 2012 07:37 WhiteDog wrote:
Is the evelynn pick serious in TSM vs Fnactic or ?
Placeholder for Cassio.
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On February 11 2012 07:37 WhiteDog wrote:
Is the evelynn pick serious in TSM vs Fnactic or ?
Eve pick is used on live realm when someone doesn't own a champion. It was a stand-in for Cassio, hence the remake.
Anyways, bans and picks over for Game 2.
Fnatic Bans: LeBlanc/Sona/Gangplank
TSM Bans: Morgana/Ryze/Shyvana
Fnatic Picks: Maokai/Trist/Fizz/Shaco(wtfShushei)/Nunu
TSM Picks: Cassio/Soraka/Lee Sin/Graves/Yorick
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-.- oh i got the v legendary and v TSM mixed up LOL
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EPT
