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On January 31 2012 00:54 TheYango wrote:
In other words, you want people to still have to go through the motions of last-hitting, but also remove the possibility of being bad at it.
More or less. The motions of last hitting are neccesary to retain complexity in the laning phase, but it should not be mechanically complex.
I concede to you all, however, that the notion that mechanical complexity isn't fun is my opinion.
It might be possible to remove last-hitting while still preserving the lane dynamics around it, but none of his proposed solutions do. Requiring that people move up to a minion and attack it is the whole reason we have interesting stuff like harassing in lane. If you get gold just by standing near dying minions, then in order to get your lane not to push you can't attack minions at all, so people will just stand there. And because you don't have to come up to farm minions, people will stand as far back as possible to avoid jungle ganks. In mid lane that's practically under their tower and they'll be largely untouchable.
Right, I adknowledged his proposal failed to do this. And widening the last hitting gap too large would reduce the opprotunity of zoning denial (as an extreme example, have that shield I proposed be 500 health. You could last hit essentially at your leisure).
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On January 31 2012 00:58 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 00:54 TheYango wrote:
In other words, you want people to still have to go through the motions of last-hitting, but also remove the possibility of being bad at it. More or less. The motions of last hitting are neccesary to retain complexity in the laning phase, but it should not be mechanically complex. I concede to you all, however, that the notion that mechanical complexity isn't fun is my opinion.
It's about as mechanically simple as it gets already.
like the only solution I can think of is a sort of "last hit bot" where you move within range and tell the bot which minion you want, and it autoattacks it for you at the exact right time.
oh ok I didn't understand what you meant by the shield at first, but it does make some sense as well.
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On January 31 2012 00:38 Slaughter wrote:
Is Sejuani going to be the champion I can crawl up from terrible to mediocrity? So far 3-0 with a 3-2-19 averages. hehehehe
Ehhhh
Just from the few experiences I've had with Two_Down playing her, she is a good champ. However, she needs a team to back her up, so she's not ideal for solo q. He could tell you more about her though.
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On January 31 2012 00:58 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 00:54 TheYango wrote:
In other words, you want people to still have to go through the motions of last-hitting, but also remove the possibility of being bad at it. More or less. The motions of last hitting are neccesary to retain complexity in the laning phase, but it should not be mechanically complex. I concede to you all, however, that the notion that mechanical complexity isn't fun is my opinion.
I'm still hung up on you thinking last hitting is mechanically complex. Is this the first video game you've tried to get halfway decent at or something?
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On January 31 2012 01:02 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 00:58 ManyCookies wrote:On January 31 2012 00:54 TheYango wrote:
In other words, you want people to still have to go through the motions of last-hitting, but also remove the possibility of being bad at it. More or less. The motions of last hitting are neccesary to retain complexity in the laning phase, but it should not be mechanically complex. I concede to you all, however, that the notion that mechanical complexity isn't fun is my opinion. I'm still hung up on you thinking last hitting is mechanically complex. Is this the first video game you've tried to get halfway decent at or something?
"Mechanical Complexity" does not actually mean "It takes a lot of actions and timing to execute". It just means it requires some sort of mechanical skill to do, like clicking a button at the right time. In this case, it's more about timing than the actual action (Yes, right clicking once is an incredible drain on my focus).
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On January 31 2012 01:00 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 00:38 Slaughter wrote:
Is Sejuani going to be the champion I can crawl up from terrible to mediocrity? So far 3-0 with a 3-2-19 averages. hehehehe Ehhhh Just from the few experiences I've had with Two_Down playing her, she is a good champ. However, she needs a team to back her up, so she's not ideal for solo q. He could tell you more about her though.
She doesnt do enough damage and her cooldowns are out of whack.
She needs her ulti to have its cooldown cut in about half at high levels and q cut by about 5 seconds at all levels. That would be a good place to start IMO.
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On January 31 2012 01:05 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 01:02 Mogwai wrote:On January 31 2012 00:58 ManyCookies wrote:On January 31 2012 00:54 TheYango wrote:
In other words, you want people to still have to go through the motions of last-hitting, but also remove the possibility of being bad at it. More or less. The motions of last hitting are neccesary to retain complexity in the laning phase, but it should not be mechanically complex. I concede to you all, however, that the notion that mechanical complexity isn't fun is my opinion. I'm still hung up on you thinking last hitting is mechanically complex. Is this the first video game you've tried to get halfway decent at or something? "Mechanical Complexity" does not actually mean "It takes a lot of actions and timing to execute". It just means it requires some sort of mechanical skill to do, like clicking a button at the right time. In this case, it's more about timing than the actual action (Yes, right clicking once is an incredible drain on my focus).
Except there's nothing complex about. It's a mechanic, that's it.
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On January 31 2012 00:43 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 00:37 Kaniol wrote:
Why do people insist on removing things that separate bad players from good players? Because last hitting is not the fundamental source of LoL "skill". "Skill" is control and knowledge of your lane, cordination with your team, positional skills, knowing when to engage and when to play passively, and so on. Yes, it's "skillful" to last hit; it would also be skillful having to solve a Lorentz transformation everytime you built a new building in Starcraft. Mechanical skill is fine so long as it enhances the actual gameplay. The macro mechanics in Starcraft are demanding, but it allows for freedom of choice. But just arbitrarily throwing in mechanical difficulty for the sake of mechanical difficulty is silly. It detracts from the ultimate meat of the game.
Last hitting isn't pointless mechanical difficulty, it provides a very refined source of conflict during the laning phase. Every minion becomes a mini-objective around which both sides posture and assert space control, and over which they fight or cede. Laning is dynamic, difficult, and interesting almost entirely because of how last-hitting forces players just within arms-length of each other. Mechanics involving simple proximity or overall damage done simply can't replicate the effect.
A decade ago I thought I had the potential to be a hotshot Starcraft player, if only the mechanical skill required wasn't so high. However, when I played those sorts of games it turned out I was still terrible if not worse. Mechanics were simply an excuse, I wasn't the Rommel or Sun Tsu I thought I was. When I see these sorts of arguments I always see my deluded, oblivious past self, clinging to false notions of my own skill.
I'm not arguing that arbitrary mechanical barriers are good, simply that often people apply that label to useful mechanics because of their own inadequacies. I'm not speaking as an elitist, but as someone who used to do that himself.
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On January 31 2012 01:05 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 01:02 Mogwai wrote:On January 31 2012 00:58 ManyCookies wrote:On January 31 2012 00:54 TheYango wrote:
In other words, you want people to still have to go through the motions of last-hitting, but also remove the possibility of being bad at it. More or less. The motions of last hitting are neccesary to retain complexity in the laning phase, but it should not be mechanically complex. I concede to you all, however, that the notion that mechanical complexity isn't fun is my opinion. I'm still hung up on you thinking last hitting is mechanically complex. Is this the first video game you've tried to get halfway decent at or something? "Mechanical Complexity" does not actually mean "It takes a lot of actions and timing to execute". It just means it requires some sort of mechanical skill to do, like clicking a button at the right time. In this case, it's more about timing than the actual action (Yes, right clicking once is an incredible drain on my focus).
But the timing aspect is absolutely crucial for laning dynamics. There is no reasonable way to simplify lasthitting.
You could say that Dominion is Riot's attempt at providing a game more where lasthitting is "easier", or rather less important. They had to implement drastic gameplay changes to keep the game dynamic.
If you don't want to lasthit properly, play Dominion.
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As an Ezreal player, what do you think he needs to be a quality pick again? Something like higher base stats, higher range, or allowing Q to crit? Maybe an AoE clearing ability that's not his ult?
Not that it really matters all that much, as I'll play him because he's fun, but just thinking out loud.
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Actually after thinking about it more, I believe there are solutions which preserve the gameplay in lane while reducing the mechanical skill required. For example each minion could have a half second death animation where it's targetable only by players (so it wouldn't ruin the way the lane pushes). If you attack the minion during this time it counts as a last hit.
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On January 31 2012 01:05 ManyCookies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 01:02 Mogwai wrote:On January 31 2012 00:58 ManyCookies wrote:On January 31 2012 00:54 TheYango wrote:
In other words, you want people to still have to go through the motions of last-hitting, but also remove the possibility of being bad at it. More or less. The motions of last hitting are neccesary to retain complexity in the laning phase, but it should not be mechanically complex. I concede to you all, however, that the notion that mechanical complexity isn't fun is my opinion. I'm still hung up on you thinking last hitting is mechanically complex. Is this the first video game you've tried to get halfway decent at or something? "Mechanical Complexity" does not actually mean "It takes a lot of actions and timing to execute". It just means it requires some sort of mechanical skill to do, like clicking a button at the right time. In this case, it's more about timing than the actual action (Yes, right clicking once is an incredible drain on my focus).
I understand what you mean by mechanical complexity, but again, it's about as mechanically straightforward and easy as you can get. The timing and positioning windows are important to preserve laning gameplay, and the actual action of putting your cursor over the creep and right clicking is literally as simple as you can get to perform the action. If you want an "easy mode" option or something with these fake shields so that you and your friends can play custom games where you can be lazy about last hitting, fine, but don't touch the mechanics of competitive last hitting because it can't be simplified without fundamentally changing the dynamics of player interactions in lane.
tl;dr, the arbitrary mechanical difficulty of last hitting is negligible, while the real reasons it's at all difficult (AGAIN, IT'S STILL NOT EVEN A LITTLE DIFFICULT BY ANY OTHER COMPETITIVE GAME'S STANDARDS) are not arbitrary because they very much define the PvP interactions in lane.
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As if my view of the LoL community as a whole wasn't low enough, now some people get behind the notion of making LoL easier.
LoL - the title laughed at by dota/hon players for being soo very easy and silly.
Why remove the aspects that make mobas unique?, its the whole pve - pvp interaction that makes these games unique and not some standard deathmatch game.
Again LoL isn't even mechanicly difficult at all, its quite the opposite, its EASY.
Mechanics are important for competitive games - so don't touch it, if anything make it harder to up the skill differential.
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In any case, Riot already slightly increased the lasthitting window with the new masteries and the AD runes buffs before that. Sure, you might be able to increase the window a tiny bit more. But any significant change is likely going to trash the laning phase.
Some champs also got better attack animations and new champs generally have pretty easy animations.
Actually that's probably the only thing Riot could reasonably "improve":
Normalize attack animations. So you wouldn't have such vastly different behaviors like say Soraka and Vayne, making it easier because you don't have to re-learn the timing for every champ.
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On January 31 2012 01:06 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 01:00 jcarlsoniv wrote:On January 31 2012 00:38 Slaughter wrote:
Is Sejuani going to be the champion I can crawl up from terrible to mediocrity? So far 3-0 with a 3-2-19 averages. hehehehe Ehhhh Just from the few experiences I've had with Two_Down playing her, she is a good champ. However, she needs a team to back her up, so she's not ideal for solo q. He could tell you more about her though. She doesnt do enough damage and her cooldowns are out of whack. She needs her ulti to have its cooldown cut in about half at high levels and q cut by about 5 seconds at all levels. That would be a good place to start IMO.
Mmmm, you're numbers are too drastic IMO, but maybe I'm just missing your hyperbole :p. 3 seconds off the Q, and ult down from 150/130/110 to 120/100/80 might be reasonable, but you really don't want the Q to go down to a 6 second base CD on a character that's looking to build CDR anyway. It's just too much mobility on a character with that much disruption IMO. If you do those and then tweak her base damages up just a little bit, she's pretty great if you ask me.
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On January 31 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:
As an Ezreal player, what do you think he needs to be a quality pick again? Something like higher base stats, higher range, or allowing Q to crit? Maybe an AoE clearing ability that's not his ult?
Not that it really matters all that much, as I'll play him because he's fun, but just thinking out loud.
Q Critting is a common suggestion, but it risks him becoming a super-ranged Gangplank. I think a better solution would be to allow his own W to affect him. It's a softer buff that primarily strengthens his late game.
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On January 31 2012 01:35 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 01:06 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 31 2012 01:00 jcarlsoniv wrote:On January 31 2012 00:38 Slaughter wrote:
Is Sejuani going to be the champion I can crawl up from terrible to mediocrity? So far 3-0 with a 3-2-19 averages. hehehehe Ehhhh Just from the few experiences I've had with Two_Down playing her, she is a good champ. However, she needs a team to back her up, so she's not ideal for solo q. He could tell you more about her though. She doesnt do enough damage and her cooldowns are out of whack. She needs her ulti to have its cooldown cut in about half at high levels and q cut by about 5 seconds at all levels. That would be a good place to start IMO. Mmmm, you're numbers are too drastic IMO, but maybe I'm just missing your hyperbole :p. 3 seconds off the Q, and ult down from 150/130/110 to 120/100/80 might be reasonable, but you really don't want the Q to go down to a 6 second base CD on a character that's looking to build CDR anyway. It's just too much mobility on a character with that much disruption IMO. If you do those and then tweak her base damages up just a little bit, she's pretty great if you ask me.
Agreed with Smash. Her kit is dangerous, and even you (T_D) have said her ult hit range is stupid good. Reducing the cooldown by half would be too good.
A permaslow champ is gonna be a bitch for them to balance.
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On January 31 2012 01:37 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:
As an Ezreal player, what do you think he needs to be a quality pick again? Something like higher base stats, higher range, or allowing Q to crit? Maybe an AoE clearing ability that's not his ult?
Not that it really matters all that much, as I'll play him because he's fun, but just thinking out loud. Q Critting is a common suggestion, but it risks him becoming a super-ranged Gangplank. I think a better solution would be to allow his own W to affect him. It's a softer buff that primarily strengthens his late game.
The issue I see with that is, how would that work with his AS passive? If they stack, that's a 90% AS buff. Or were you thinking still have it cap out at 50%, but let him get the 40% immediately from W so he doesn't have to stack his passive pre-fight?
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There are flaws with last hitting as a mechanic - it's not intuitive for new players, it creates the 0CS Support meta, etc - but it definitely creates interesting gameplay and laning mechanics and skill differentiators, and not just the "is your timing good" test. It would be much more difficult than that thread suggestsnto remove the mechanic without overhauling the game. But hey, we're going to get a case study in Blizzard Dota, so let's see what happens.
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Yeah, an AoE perma slow is crazy strong, especially with one of the strongest initiating/ganking ultis in the game. Imagine if a champion like that had great natural tankiness, mobility, and sustained damage as well??
Oh, wait..
That said for some reason skarner hasn't been played much since the nerf, even by me. No idea why, though, he's still really fun and really powerful like wtf.
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EPT
