EPTI agree with his notion that last hitting is arbitrary mechanical difficulty, though his proposals would fudamentally change the game. The challenge would be finding a system that makes last hitting mechanically easier while retaining the gameplay based around it, such as zoning. Maybe like an invisible 30-50 hp shield against non-champion damage or something.
[Patch 1.0.0.132: Sejuani] General Discussion - Page 169
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
I agree with his notion that last hitting is arbitrary mechanical difficulty, though his proposals would fudamentally change the game. The challenge would be finding a system that makes last hitting mechanically easier while retaining the gameplay based around it, such as zoning. Maybe like an invisible 30-50 hp shield against non-champion damage or something. | ||
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Craton
United States17295 Posts
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
I mean, which one do people think is more interesting to watch, irelia jump around creep with Q while GP next to him Qs them too or watch team fights happen? | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
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Craton
United States17295 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:38 daemir wrote: It would quite possibly make LoL even more spectator friendly though, watching people last hit next to each other vs looking at constant champ vs champ action and quite possibly mixing up the lane meta. I mean, which one do people think is more interesting to watch, irelia jump around creep with Q while GP next to him Qs them too or watch team fights happen? It would also make the game hugely shallow and would remove a tremendous amount of skill differential. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:39 Craton wrote: It would also make the game hugely shallow and would remove a tremendous amount of skill differential. Agree, I still enjoy looking at gameplay from someone who really nails his farm like Alexich did a night or 2 back, game after game highest farm while trading with other mid laner. Come to think of it, Dominion gives a taste of what removing last hitting is, although it kinda goes even further as it removes lanes too. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:27 ManyCookies wrote: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=19877669#post19877669 I agree with his notion that last hitting is arbitrary mechanical difficulty, though his proposals would fudamentally change the game. The challenge would be finding a system that makes last hitting mechanically easier while retaining the gameplay based around it, such as zoning. Maybe like an invisible 30-50 hp shield against non-champion damage or something. Sorry man, but I've played a number of competitive video games and arbitrary mechanical difficulties just come with the territory. If you don't want mechanics to come into the game, play chess with a leisurely clock, but keep the "mechanics shouldn't be any part of the game!" mentality the hell away from video games because that's just fundamentally part of a real time game and there's no way to completely remove mechanics from the equation. I can understand bitching about certain things being difficult in certain games and it feeling arbitrary and stupid, but seriously, LoL is a joke when it comes to mechanics already, dumbing it down any further would be a mistake (especially on something like last hitting). | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:37 Kaniol wrote: Why do people insist on removing things that separate bad players from good players? Because last hitting is not the fundamental source of LoL "skill". "Skill" is control and knowledge of your lane, cordination with your team, positional skills, knowing when to engage and when to play passively, and so on. Yes, it's "skillful" to last hit; it would also be skillful having to solve a Lorentz transformation everytime you built a new building in Starcraft. Mechanical skill is fine so long as it enhances the actual gameplay. The macro mechanics in Starcraft are demanding, but it allows for freedom of choice. But just arbitrarily throwing in mechanical difficulty for the sake of mechanical difficulty is silly. It detracts from the ultimate meat of the game. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:43 ManyCookies wrote: Because last hitting is not the fundamental source of LoL "skill". "Skill" is control and knowledge of your lane, cordination with your team, positional skills, knowing when to engage and when to play passively, and so on. Yes, it's "skillful" to last hit; it would also be skillful having to do a Lorentz transformation everytime you built a new building in Starcraft. It just detracts from the ultimate meat of LoL. careful, looks like you're arbitrarily drawing a line about what skills we care about to me. | ||
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DoXa
Switzerland1448 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:43 ManyCookies wrote: Because last hitting is not the fundamental source of LoL "skill". "Skill" is control and knowledge of your lane, cordination with your team, positional skills, knowing when to engage and when to play passively, and so on. Yes, it's "skillful" to last hit; it would also be skillful having to do a Lorentz transformation everytime you built a new building in Starcraft. It just detracts from the ultimate meat of LoL. Ofcourse it is. Laning defines most games, and last hitting defines laning by a great margin. so basically you want Dominion on the Summoners Rift map? | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
-soraka W-ing a creep to screw up your timing (not that common of an occurrence but still) -timing aoe/skillshots to land just as opponent tries to land a last hit (common 'skill') -creep control/zoning to a certain extent -the tradeoff between harassing vs lasthitting. being able to maintain high cs while harassing or under harass is important as a skill | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:47 DoXa wrote: Ofcourse it is. Laning defines most games, and last hitting defines laning by a great margin. so basically you want Dominion on the Summoners Rift map? Of course not. I want the mechanical difficulty of last hitting to be lowered, not remove the mechanic entirely. That would be completely retarded and fundamentally game changing. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:43 ManyCookies wrote: Because last hitting is not the fundamental source of LoL "skill". "Skill" is control and knowledge of your lane, cordination with your team, positional skills, knowing when to engage and when to play passively, and so on. Yes, it's "skillful" to last hit; it would also be skillful having to solve a Lorentz transformation everytime you built a new building in Starcraft. Mechanical skill is fine so long as it enhances the actual gameplay. The macro mechanics in Starcraft are demanding, but it allows for freedom of choice. But just arbitrarily throwing in mechanical difficulty for the sake of mechanical difficulty is silly. It detracts from the ultimate meat of the game. Lasthitting in and of itself is a mechanical skill. But the need to lasthit creeps CREATES many of the strategic interactions where are so core to laning. It defines when you can harass an opponent, when you have advantage over an opponent, and how you can push that advantage. Laning interactions are bound to this necessity for the heroes on both sides to be within attack range of the minion waves. That's not easy to replicate with any replacement mechanic (and certainly not the one he proposes). | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:43 ManyCookies wrote: Because last hitting is not the fundamental source of LoL "skill". "Skill" is control and knowledge of your lane, cordination with your team, positional skills, knowing when to engage and when to play passively, and so on. Yes, it's "skillful" to last hit; it would also be skillful having to solve a Lorentz transformation everytime you built a new building in Starcraft. Mechanical skill is fine so long as it enhances the actual gameplay. The macro mechanics in Starcraft are demanding, but it allows for freedom of choice. But just arbitrarily throwing in mechanical difficulty for the sake of mechanical difficulty is silly. It detracts from the ultimate meat of the game. That's YOUR definition of skill, don't try to force it onto someone else because you are just asking for a flamewar | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:43 ManyCookies wrote: Because last hitting is not the fundamental source of LoL "skill". "Skill" is control and knowledge of your lane, cordination with your team, positional skills, knowing when to engage and when to play passively, and so on. Yes, it's "skillful" to last hit; it would also be skillful having to solve a Lorentz transformation everytime you built a new building in Starcraft. Mechanical skill is fine so long as it enhances the actual gameplay. The macro mechanics in Starcraft are demanding, but it allows for freedom of choice. But just arbitrarily throwing in mechanical difficulty for the sake of mechanical difficulty is silly. It detracts from the ultimate meat of the game. Lasthitting is the aspect that CREATES most of lane dynamics. If it was just champ vs champ, the matchup would be instantly decided between 2 decent players. Either you win trades with an enemy, or you lose them. The only real factor would be luck. Add in lasthitting. Now a player has to make a move to grab some farm. You can predict your enemy's move. You can punish lasthits, you can fake lasthits, you can give up some farm for a reason, all the nontrivial stuff. Without lasthitting, the game would be REALLY stupid. On January 31 2012 00:50 ManyCookies wrote: Of course not. I want the mechanical difficulty of last hitting to be lowered, not remove the mechanic entirely. That would be completely retarded and fundamentally game changing. The mechanical difficulty is this: 1) Position near minion. 2) Place cursor on minion. 3) Right click. 4) At the right timing. 1) and 4) Is where the interesting stuff originates from. You can't remove those without screwing over lane dynamics. 2) and 3) can go, I don't care. But do you know a reasonable way to make these easier? | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:43 ManyCookies wrote: Because last hitting is not the fundamental source of LoL "skill". "Skill" is control and knowledge of your lane, cordination with your team, positional skills, knowing when to engage and when to play passively, and so on. Yes, it's "skillful" to last hit; it would also be skillful having to solve a Lorentz transformation everytime you built a new building in Starcraft. Mechanical skill is fine so long as it enhances the actual gameplay. The macro mechanics in Starcraft are demanding, but it allows for freedom of choice. But just arbitrarily throwing in mechanical difficulty for the sake of mechanical difficulty is silly. It detracts from the ultimate meat of the game. but last hitting is a fundamental mechanic of the game. Every lane interaction revolves around last hitting in some way or form. It may be 'arbitrary' in a way, but what it basically comes down to is that you have to move to a certain position and execute a specific action at a timing in order to receive income. Because you have to move to said certain position at said timing, that means your lane opponent has the opportunity to take advantage of that knowledge, so there's all kinds of counterplay and even counter-counterplay involved. I'm all for removing silly and pointless game mechanics, but last hitting is neither silly nor pointless. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:50 ManyCookies wrote: Of course not. I want the mechanical difficulty of last hitting to be lowered, not remove the mechanic entirely. That would be completely retarded and fundamentally game changing. In other words, you want people to still have to go through the motions of last-hitting, but also remove the possibility of being bad at it. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:50 ManyCookies wrote: Of course not. I want the mechanical difficulty of last hitting to be lowered, not remove the mechanic entirely. That would be completely retarded and fundamentally game changing. There is no way to lower the mechanical difficulty (which, again, is already pretty damn low, you should try getting good at a fighting game or an RTS sometime), without fundamentally changing the mechanics of laning. Widening the window you have to last hit fundamentally changes how you can play the PvP aspects of laning as some of the people responding to you have been pointing out. | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
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