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[Patch 1.0.0.131: Viktor] General Discussion - Page 125

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novalight
Profile Joined December 2011
United States20 Posts
January 08 2012 18:09 GMT
#2481
starks really isn't 'costefficient on carries and fighters without the aura effect' at all. on an ad carry, starks doesn't have the stats to replace ANY core offensive item, is too expensive to build before buying defense, and is a waste of a slot in an endgame 6item build. toplane ad has a similar problem, with the additional issue of many top laners building as bruisers, in which case a starks would make no sense at all. the only role other than support that i would consider getting a starks on is jungler, and only then on very specific junglers/comps
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
January 08 2012 18:10 GMT
#2482
On January 09 2012 03:07 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 02:22 jcarlsoniv wrote:
For people who have played Viktor:

Have any of you noticed that his Laser seems pretty buggy? There are times I see it go right through a target and it does no damage. Either it's buggy, or they made the hit box too narrow, especially for the aiming tool that it shows.


For everyone else (but still pertinent to Viktor):

What is the slow % difference between single target and aoe skills that you get from Rylai's. I absolutely love Rylai's, but it doesn't seem to do much on Viktor other than give him AP and make him tanky. His laser doesn't really seem to get much benefit at all from the slow.

I've said this many times even in this thread, the lazer has the bugs:

1. Sometimes deals no damage

2. The range is actually shorter than the animation and never hits at the start or end of the beam even if it clearly hits the enemy

3. The range is actually thinner than the animation or the targeting indicator and you will only hit with the very center

4. Sometimes it shoots the opposite direction for no reason akin to nidalee spear for instance.


Ah, I haven't followed this thread perfectly, so I missed that. But yes, I have noticed all of these things.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
JackDino
Profile Joined July 2010
Gabon6219 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-08 18:17:02
January 08 2012 18:15 GMT
#2483
On January 09 2012 03:09 topoulo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 02:36 Shiv. wrote:
On January 09 2012 02:24 wei2coolman wrote:
So I've been playing a lot of Katarina, and I've run into a couple of problems.

a) should I run WotA? or Hextech Gunblade? Recently I've been going WotA since there's usually another AP on my team.
b) should I rush WotA/gunblade? or should I stop at revolver, and then work on other items?
c) should I build rylais before or after Death Cap?
d) is deathcap worth it? I've recently been building blood thirster. Gives more bonus damage to my ult, also offers more auto attack damage, while cd's are down, and is cheaper.... but DC makes shunpo a lot stronger.

Sorc Shoes -> Gunblade -> possible defensive item (QSS, GA) -> Deathcap -> Defensive item in case you didn't get it -> WotA.


Yea ok with 0 hps youll be focus down in a global.

try standar rod of ages ( i know mana is usless but uber hp bonuses and 80 ability ) ,rylais then deathcap, this way ull get 1200 hp more + snare , which is crusial, even then get hourglass then deathcap.

If not rylais , heart of gold ,hourglass ,

Gunblade is trash

Really, Rod of Ages on a manaless champ? I better buy Rod of Ages on akali for that imba HP and AP.
On January 09 2012 03:09 novalight wrote:
starks really isn't 'costefficient on carries and fighters without the aura effect' at all. on an ad carry, starks doesn't have the stats to replace ANY core offensive item, is too expensive to build before buying defense, and is a waste of a slot in an endgame 6item build. toplane ad has a similar problem, with the additional issue of many top laners building as bruisers, in which case a starks would make no sense at all. the only role other than support that i would consider getting a starks on is jungler, and only then on very specific junglers/comps

Starks is a great item on irelia(actually helps you in lane) and it could work as a late item on GP. I'm sure there are other top laners who can get away with buying a somewhat early starks.
Only problem with getting an early starks on a nonsupport is, if you get it too early you'll lose out on damage.
This isnt Broodwar so I dont owe anyone respect for beating me. -arb
topoulo
Profile Joined September 2011
253 Posts
January 08 2012 18:15 GMT
#2484
Viktor is such a fail lol, i mean it could be ok if they fix the lazer bugs then add a separate slot ( with a bit of nerf on stats i guess) for his special gear and it will still be inferior to morgana , cass or karthus for instance .
topoulo
Profile Joined September 2011
253 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-08 18:19:02
January 08 2012 18:18 GMT
#2485


Really, Rod of Ages on a manaless champ? I better buy Rod of Ages on akali for that imba HP and AP.


Depends if ur getting focused down , the xtra 600ish hp are usefull and the price is still good, rylais should be the first item u get.

Also hourglass + ulti can be golden cause katarinas main problem is with 1 stun she dies and you dont wnat that , thats why its consider a trash champ overall and is never ben used in any serious tournaments.
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-08 18:27:20
January 08 2012 18:24 GMT
#2486
On January 09 2012 03:03 spinesheath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 02:44 clickrush wrote:
i dont get the starks on support discussion at all. starks is allready costefficient on carries and fighters without the aura effect. If a champ does phisical damage and likes to have an AS item then he should get starks as long as he isnt the only one who profits from it and if there inst allready anyone building it.

The idea is that the carry can put that money towards other sources of DPS, while he gets the aura from someone else. If your ranged AD has IE LW PD then it'll be hard to find a better way to spend money on the support than Starks: The stats on it are greatly amplified on the ranged AD. Anything you buy that works just for yourself will not be amplified.


I find starks on the support a stupid idea as well in an organized setting.

Rather let top/jungle build it instead of wits end and be done with it for major midgame fights (also those people are always in the middle so you get the full benefit from the armor reduction) than having your support struggle with getting it at 45 minutes, if at all.

People like Irelia, Udyr, Skarner, Gangplank, Cho and most likely more can all fit a starks in rather well imo.



On January 09 2012 03:18 topoulo wrote:


Show nested quote +
Really, Rod of Ages on a manaless champ? I better buy Rod of Ages on akali for that imba HP and AP.


Depends if ur getting focused down , the xtra 600ish hp are usefull and the price is still good, rylais should be the first item u get.

Also hourglass + ulti can be golden cause katarinas main problem is with 1 stun she dies and you dont wnat that , thats why its consider a trash champ overall and is never ben used in any serious tournaments.


I have played kat like twice in my life, but... RoA is trash on manaless champs. If you need a source of HP and AP on any of those get Rylais. Next you're gonna suggest RoA on Kennen and then on Lee Sin, right?

She is not a trash champ, just most people suck at playing her. If she'd be eve-level (aka trash) it would have been impossible for Scarra to play her on that level. The trick is knowing when to go in and when not. Also (I think I'm quoting redtooth here) she's not about her ult but about bouncing blade.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
JackDino
Profile Joined July 2010
Gabon6219 Posts
January 08 2012 18:26 GMT
#2487
I buy RoA on lee so I have more hp and my shield shields me for more so I never die!
This isnt Broodwar so I dont owe anyone respect for beating me. -arb
Shiv.
Profile Joined January 2011
3534 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-08 18:30:37
January 08 2012 18:29 GMT
#2488
On January 09 2012 03:09 topoulo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 02:36 Shiv. wrote:
On January 09 2012 02:24 wei2coolman wrote:
So I've been playing a lot of Katarina, and I've run into a couple of problems.

a) should I run WotA? or Hextech Gunblade? Recently I've been going WotA since there's usually another AP on my team.
b) should I rush WotA/gunblade? or should I stop at revolver, and then work on other items?
c) should I build rylais before or after Death Cap?
d) is deathcap worth it? I've recently been building blood thirster. Gives more bonus damage to my ult, also offers more auto attack damage, while cd's are down, and is cheaper.... but DC makes shunpo a lot stronger.

Sorc Shoes -> Gunblade -> possible defensive item (QSS, GA) -> Deathcap -> Defensive item in case you didn't get it -> WotA.


Yea ok with 0 hps youll be focus down in a global.

try standar rod of ages ( i know mana is usless but uber hp bonuses and 80 ability ) ,rylais then deathcap, this way ull get 1200 hp more + snare , which is crusial, even then get hourglass then deathcap.

If not rylais , heart of gold ,hourglass ,

Gunblade is trash

I mained her for the majority of time I played this game. I still play her regularly. You, dear sir, have no clue on how to build her and your advice is terrible. I talked to scarra bout how to build her and he builds her the same way. If you get focussed in a global, you went in at the wrong time. Rylai's is horrible because you spend 3k gold on 80 AP and wonder why you deal no damage. Get a clue before posting advice.

scarra discussing Kat builds.
currently rooting for myself.
Niton
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2395 Posts
January 08 2012 18:29 GMT
#2489
Thinking about it - what if they replaced the Recurve Bow in Stark's with a Zeal, and changed the self stats / cost to reflect? You'd get half the movement speed of a PD, but lifesteal and armor pen for your team in that slot.
tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it.
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-08 18:39:54
January 08 2012 18:30 GMT
#2490
On January 09 2012 03:18 topoulo wrote:


Show nested quote +
Really, Rod of Ages on a manaless champ? I better buy Rod of Ages on akali for that imba HP and AP.


Depends if ur getting focused down , the xtra 600ish hp are usefull and the price is still good, rylais should be the first item u get.

Also hourglass + ulti can be golden cause katarinas main problem is with 1 stun she dies and you dont wnat that , thats why its consider a trash champ overall and is never ben used in any serious tournaments.


Building a Rod of Ages on a manaless champion when you don't have Rylais is probably the stupidest thing you can do. Rylais costs 100 more gold and gives you the slow proc instead of catalyst and ~100 less hitpoints after 10 minutes. I'd also suggest that resists are far more effective than health since you're naturally going to be getting a lot of sustain from spell vamp.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
January 08 2012 18:44 GMT
#2491
On January 09 2012 03:24 r.Evo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 03:03 spinesheath wrote:
On January 09 2012 02:44 clickrush wrote:
i dont get the starks on support discussion at all. starks is allready costefficient on carries and fighters without the aura effect. If a champ does phisical damage and likes to have an AS item then he should get starks as long as he isnt the only one who profits from it and if there inst allready anyone building it.

The idea is that the carry can put that money towards other sources of DPS, while he gets the aura from someone else. If your ranged AD has IE LW PD then it'll be hard to find a better way to spend money on the support than Starks: The stats on it are greatly amplified on the ranged AD. Anything you buy that works just for yourself will not be amplified.


I find starks on the support a stupid idea as well in an organized setting.

Rather let top/jungle build it instead of wits end and be done with it for major midgame fights (also those people are always in the middle so you get the full benefit from the armor reduction) than having your support struggle with getting it at 45 minutes, if at all.

People like Irelia, Udyr, Skarner, Gangplank, Cho and most likely more can all fit a starks in rather well imo.



Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 03:18 topoulo wrote:


Really, Rod of Ages on a manaless champ? I better buy Rod of Ages on akali for that imba HP and AP.


Depends if ur getting focused down , the xtra 600ish hp are usefull and the price is still good, rylais should be the first item u get.

Also hourglass + ulti can be golden cause katarinas main problem is with 1 stun she dies and you dont wnat that , thats why its consider a trash champ overall and is never ben used in any serious tournaments.


I have played kat like twice in my life, but... RoA is trash on manaless champs. If you need a source of HP and AP on any of those get Rylais. Next you're gonna suggest RoA on Kennen and then on Lee Sin, right?

She is not a trash champ, just most people suck at playing her. If she'd be eve-level (aka trash) it would have been impossible for Scarra to play her on that level. The trick is knowing when to go in and when not. Also (I think I'm quoting redtooth here) she's not about her ult but about bouncing blade.

I agree completely. Her lane is very very strong imo, I haven't really lost any top lanes with her. In team fights it's all about skirting around the fight, and then ulting at the right time.
liftlift > tsm
Hidden_MotiveS
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada2562 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-08 18:50:07
January 08 2012 18:44 GMT
#2492
On January 09 2012 03:18 topoulo wrote:


Show nested quote +
Really, Rod of Ages on a manaless champ? I better buy Rod of Ages on akali for that imba HP and AP.


Depends if ur getting focused down , the xtra 600ish hp are usefull and the price is still good, rylais should be the first item u get.

Also hourglass + ulti can be golden cause katarinas main problem is with 1 stun she dies and you dont wnat that , thats why its consider a trash champ overall and is never ben used in any serious tournaments.


Katarina channels and that's why zhonya's doesn't work on her while she's ulting. That's why she's still trash in tournaments. I generally chose champs that can break channels like morg, trist, sion, rammus in normals because nunu and kat are just too strong otherwise when your team doesn't have any hard CC ! D:<


I also have to agree with the don't buy RoA on manaless champs thing. Do you buy boots of swiftness and boots of mobility so you'll have a minimum of +70 move speed, and a max of 120 move speed? I mean you can but it's not gold efficient.
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
January 08 2012 18:53 GMT
#2493
On January 09 2012 03:24 r.Evo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 03:03 spinesheath wrote:
On January 09 2012 02:44 clickrush wrote:
i dont get the starks on support discussion at all. starks is allready costefficient on carries and fighters without the aura effect. If a champ does phisical damage and likes to have an AS item then he should get starks as long as he isnt the only one who profits from it and if there inst allready anyone building it.

The idea is that the carry can put that money towards other sources of DPS, while he gets the aura from someone else. If your ranged AD has IE LW PD then it'll be hard to find a better way to spend money on the support than Starks: The stats on it are greatly amplified on the ranged AD. Anything you buy that works just for yourself will not be amplified.


I find starks on the support a stupid idea as well in an organized setting.

Rather let top/jungle build it instead of wits end and be done with it for major midgame fights (also those people are always in the middle so you get the full benefit from the armor reduction) than having your support struggle with getting it at 45 minutes, if at all.

People like Irelia, Udyr, Skarner, Gangplank, Cho and most likely more can all fit a starks in rather well imo.

It's not a stupid idea if you can afford it - that is in rather long games.
Now if you let everyone on the team buy a couple more wards, and the support a couple less, the support can get Starks quicker. That makes it less troublesome than to fit it into a build of another champ, since there's really not much of a problem with Reverie -> Starks on most supports. Thus you rebalance the gold cost of the aura by rebalancing the money spent on wards. This works nicely because Starks provides almost all stats as an aura. It also doesn't mean a huge investment on one (non-support) champ anymore, just a small cost on everyone.

That being said, IF you have a champ who can properly fit starks into his regular build, and Starks is appropriate for the current match, it is most likely still slightly better. 20% ASpd better, so to say.

The range of the armor reduction aura is not really an issue. 1200 is plenty even on a support (well maybe except for Soraka).

Junglers don't earn too much money either and often struggle with survivability, so I don't expect it to go too well on them. Solo top is the most likely non-support Starks carrier.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-08 19:14:34
January 08 2012 19:02 GMT
#2494
On January 09 2012 03:44 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Katarina channels and that's why zhonya's doesn't work on her while she's ulting. That's why she's still trash in tournaments. I generally chose champs that can break channels like morg, trist, sion, rammus in normals because nunu and kat are just too strong otherwise when your team doesn't have any hard CC ! D:<


You know Morg takes 3 seconds to hard CC anyone, exactly Kata's ult duration and more than Nunu's, right? I consider Kata quite strong against Morg because of that, she can easily get out of your ult with Shumpo, has quite some range with W->Q, and Morg has nothing to deal with her ult except shielding herself, which can be baited to be on cd when you go in.
I don't what's best between sorcs, lucidity or mercs, tho. I guess if you buy blue pots often you won't need lucidity.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Brees
Profile Joined January 2010
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
January 08 2012 19:18 GMT
#2495
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good.
Brees on in
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
January 08 2012 19:24 GMT
#2496
On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good.


Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her.
I am the Town Medic.
Kaniol
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Poland5551 Posts
January 08 2012 19:27 GMT
#2497
On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good.


Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her.

He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her...
Brees
Profile Joined January 2010
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
January 08 2012 19:30 GMT
#2498
On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:
On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good.


Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her.

He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her...


sure, he doesnt take into account the interaction between W + E and flat hp. it is a reduced percentage like gragas which makes flat hp actually really good on katarina for when you go in. I also play her top where as he plays her mid so the builds are obviously going to be different. He goes for full burst on squishy mages while im trying to do sustain harass and have a CC for when ganks come.
Brees on in
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-08 19:38:53
January 08 2012 19:35 GMT
#2499
On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:
On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good.


Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her.

He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her...


"You pay 3000g for 80ap and then wonder why your damage isn't high enough to kill someone.
It wasn't until people I transitioned from rylais into gunblade that i noticed that rylais is a super situational item and should almost never be bought outside of very few champions/situations."

Forgive my paraphrasing I guess, but he's definitely saying/implying that Rylai's first is trash, and even later in the game is super situational.


On January 09 2012 04:30 Brees wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:
On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:
On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good.


Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her.

He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her...


sure, he doesnt take into account the interaction between W + E and flat hp. it is a reduced percentage like gragas which makes flat hp actually really good on katarina for when you go in. I also play her top where as he plays her mid so the builds are obviously going to be different. He goes for full burst on squishy mages while im trying to do sustain harass and have a CC for when ganks come.


Your logic is faulty, damage reducers have equal synergy with resistances as they do health, since they only take into account your effective health, which is health*(1+resists/100).
I am the Town Medic.
Haasts
Profile Joined October 2011
New Zealand4445 Posts
January 08 2012 19:40 GMT
#2500
On January 09 2012 03:24 r.Evo wrote:
Rather let top/jungle build starks instead of wits end and be done with it for major midgame fights (also those people are always in the middle so you get the full benefit from the armor reduction) than having your support struggle with getting it at 45 minutes, if at all.

People like Irelia, Udyr, Skarner, Gangplank, Cho and most likely more can all fit a starks in rather well imo.


I'd never considered replacing Rageblade/Wit's End with Starks on Skarner, but I'm willing to give it a go - anyone tried this with jungle Skarner/Udyr, assuming you've got an AD bruiser toplane?

PaniaoftheReef in Path of Exile TotA SSF SC // Lovelin fanclub // GreenTea #1
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