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On January 09 2012 04:40 Haasts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:24 r.Evo wrote:
Rather let top/jungle build starks instead of wits end and be done with it for major midgame fights (also those people are always in the middle so you get the full benefit from the armor reduction) than having your support struggle with getting it at 45 minutes, if at all.
People like Irelia, Udyr, Skarner, Gangplank, Cho and most likely more can all fit a starks in rather well imo.
I'd never considered replacing Rageblade/Wit's End with Starks on Skarner, but I'm willing to give it a go - anyone tried this with jungle Skarner/Udyr, assuming you've got an AD bruiser toplane?
I feel like Stark's would give you (as well as your team) WAY more benefit than Rageblade. Wit's end is retardedly cost efficient, but even then, you get the attack speed AND good survivability for yourself and your AD, so Stark's might even be better than Wit's.
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On January 09 2012 04:02 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:44 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Katarina channels and that's why zhonya's doesn't work on her while she's ulting. That's why she's still trash in tournaments. I generally chose champs that can break channels like morg, trist, sion, rammus in normals because nunu and kat are just too strong otherwise when your team doesn't have any hard CC ! D:< You know Morg takes 3 seconds to hard CC anyone, exactly Kata's ult duration and more than Nunu's, right?  I consider Kata quite strong against Morg because of that, she can easily get out of your ult with Shumpo, has quite some range with W->Q, and Morg has nothing to deal with her ult except shielding herself, which can be baited to be on cd when you go in. I don't what's best between sorcs, lucidity or mercs, tho. I guess if you buy blue pots often you won't need lucidity.
You can generally tell when someone' setting up to ult by their movement. That and ulting the entire enemy team; you're bound to stop one channel.
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On January 09 2012 04:35 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good. Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her. He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her... "You pay 3000g for 80ap and then wonder why your damage isn't high enough to kill someone. It wasn't until people I transitioned from rylais into gunblade that i noticed that rylais is a super situational item and should almost never be bought outside of very few champions/situations." Forgive my paraphrasing I guess, but he's definitely saying/implying that Rylai's first is trash, and even later in the game is super situational. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:30 Brees wrote:On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good. Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her. He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her... sure, he doesnt take into account the interaction between W + E and flat hp. it is a reduced percentage like gragas which makes flat hp actually really good on katarina for when you go in. I also play her top where as he plays her mid so the builds are obviously going to be different. He goes for full burst on squishy mages while im trying to do sustain harass and have a CC for when ganks come. Your logic is faulty, damage reducers have equal synergy with resistances as they do health, since they only take into account your effective health, which is health*(1+resists/100).
a) I'm pretty sure Brees wasn't referring to me when he said don't feed the troll. He was talking about the guy suggesting HoG, RoA and something along those lines.
b) I'm also pretty sure Brees agrees a Katarina that goes mid does not want to build Rylai's as her first item in the vast majority of cases.
c) Rylai's being situational is true, and Brees showed a good example of where it has it's place - if you go top with her. Building Gunblade first is pretty much a death sentence, because unlike Akali, Kat does not have the frontloaded burst to take a top laner in a single combo. You need to whittle them down, and Rylai's allows for that.
d) I'm pretty sure someone like scarra who played hundreds of Kat games took the W+E+HP interaction into account.
That being said, I was under the assumption the guy asked for a build for a Kat that goes mid. Sorcs > Gunblade > situational defensive item > Deathcap > defensive item in case you didn't get it is the way to go in the vast majority of scenarios.
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starks makes you much more tankier than rageblade does on skarner, gotta be tanky.
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On January 09 2012 04:35 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:30 Brees wrote:On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good. Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her. He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her... sure, he doesnt take into account the interaction between W + E and flat hp. it is a reduced percentage like gragas which makes flat hp actually really good on katarina for when you go in. I also play her top where as he plays her mid so the builds are obviously going to be different. He goes for full burst on squishy mages while im trying to do sustain harass and have a CC for when ganks come. Your logic is faulty, damage reducers have equal synergy with resistances as they do health, since they only take into account your effective health, which is health*(1+resists/100).
I could be wrong, but I think you misunderstand what he was saying. I think he's treating spellvampable life as bonus life; kind of like a giant's belt. There was nothing about damage reduction. Effective health scales multiplicatively with health and resists so when you can leech health, you don't need as much health items.
Also new topic of conversation: singed and RoA: yes or no?
The slow on rylais doesn't proc for its full effect with singed's poison and people are in the air for the duration of the slow on your fling so I know that's not a viable option, but singed doesn't need the mana, and his AP scaling is horrendous since he doesn't build magic pen and he has bad ratios. He just needs the sustain from the catalyst effect at early levels.
I hear that the only reason people still build RoA is that it used to be good on him before a few nerfs.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On January 09 2012 04:49 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:35 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:30 Brees wrote:On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good. Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her. He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her... sure, he doesnt take into account the interaction between W + E and flat hp. it is a reduced percentage like gragas which makes flat hp actually really good on katarina for when you go in. I also play her top where as he plays her mid so the builds are obviously going to be different. He goes for full burst on squishy mages while im trying to do sustain harass and have a CC for when ganks come. Your logic is faulty, damage reducers have equal synergy with resistances as they do health, since they only take into account your effective health, which is health*(1+resists/100). I could be wrong, but I think you misunderstand what he was saying. I think he's treating spellvampable life as bonus life; kind of like a giant's belt. There was nothing about damage reduction. Effective health scales multiplicatively with health and resists so when you can leech health, you don't need as much health items.
nope im simply implying that damage reducers have much better synergy with hp then resistances because resistances only take into account 1 type of damage or the other, while HP nullifies both.
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On January 09 2012 04:55 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:49 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On January 09 2012 04:35 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:30 Brees wrote:On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good. Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her. He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her... sure, he doesnt take into account the interaction between W + E and flat hp. it is a reduced percentage like gragas which makes flat hp actually really good on katarina for when you go in. I also play her top where as he plays her mid so the builds are obviously going to be different. He goes for full burst on squishy mages while im trying to do sustain harass and have a CC for when ganks come. Your logic is faulty, damage reducers have equal synergy with resistances as they do health, since they only take into account your effective health, which is health*(1+resists/100). I could be wrong, but I think you misunderstand what he was saying. I think he's treating spellvampable life as bonus life; kind of like a giant's belt. There was nothing about damage reduction. Effective health scales multiplicatively with health and resists so when you can leech health, you don't need as much health items. nope im simply implying that damage reducers have much better synergy with hp then resistances because resistances only take into account 1 type of damage or the other, while HP nullifies both.
% dmg reduction is irrelevant whne you are deciding whether HP or Ar/MR gives you more EHP for your gold.
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On January 09 2012 04:55 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:49 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On January 09 2012 04:35 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:30 Brees wrote:On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good. Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her. He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her... sure, he doesnt take into account the interaction between W + E and flat hp. it is a reduced percentage like gragas which makes flat hp actually really good on katarina for when you go in. I also play her top where as he plays her mid so the builds are obviously going to be different. He goes for full burst on squishy mages while im trying to do sustain harass and have a CC for when ganks come. Your logic is faulty, damage reducers have equal synergy with resistances as they do health, since they only take into account your effective health, which is health*(1+resists/100). I could be wrong, but I think you misunderstand what he was saying. I think he's treating spellvampable life as bonus life; kind of like a giant's belt. There was nothing about damage reduction. Effective health scales multiplicatively with health and resists so when you can leech health, you don't need as much health items. nope im simply implying that damage reducers have much better synergy with hp then resistances because resistances only take into account 1 type of damage or the other, while HP nullifies both.
Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up.
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On January 09 2012 04:49 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Also new topic of conversation: singed and RoA: yes or no?
The slow on rylais doesn't proc for its full effect with singed's poison and people are in the air for the duration of the slow on your fling so I know that's not a viable option, but singed doesn't need the mana, and his AP scaling is horrendous since he doesn't build magic pen and he has bad ratios. He just needs the sustain from the catalyst effect at early levels.
I hear that the only reason people still build RoA is that it used to be good on him before a few nerfs.
>catalyst on singed gives him enough mana/regen/health/regen to be unharassable when combined with his ult
>a tiny bit of AP goes a long way on singed because of the way poison works
>the mana is baller for singed's passive
>defensive items are not needed early because of his ult
these are the reasons RoA is bought on singed
my general singed build is cata -> boots2 -> RoA -> situational defensive item -> rylai -> defensive items -> WotA situationally
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On January 09 2012 05:04 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:49 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Also new topic of conversation: singed and RoA: yes or no?
The slow on rylais doesn't proc for its full effect with singed's poison and people are in the air for the duration of the slow on your fling so I know that's not a viable option, but singed doesn't need the mana, and his AP scaling is horrendous since he doesn't build magic pen and he has bad ratios. He just needs the sustain from the catalyst effect at early levels.
I hear that the only reason people still build RoA is that it used to be good on him before a few nerfs. >catalyst on singed gives him enough mana/regen/health/regen to be unharassable when combined with his ult >a tiny bit of AP goes a long way on singed because of the way poison works >the mana is baller for singed's passive >defensive items are not needed early because of his ult these are the reasons RoA is bought on singed my general singed build is cata -> boots2 -> RoA -> situational defensive item -> rylai -> defensive items -> WotA situationally
I'm a fan of Randuin's and FoN for Singed's defensive items. I'll usually get them before Rylai's just to make him even more unstoppable. Team fights break out, you ult, ghost, and gun for the AD carry. I need to start playing singed more again, I just wish he didn't get trashed so hard by fotm tops though.
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I generally get starks as my 4th or 5th item with Udyr if we have a AD top and bot, by then I'm already super tank it's more of just a little something to help close out the game tried it sooner a few times but didn't feel like it added it enough to nerf my EHP
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On January 09 2012 04:55 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:49 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On January 09 2012 04:35 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:30 Brees wrote:On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good. Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her. He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her... sure, he doesnt take into account the interaction between W + E and flat hp. it is a reduced percentage like gragas which makes flat hp actually really good on katarina for when you go in. I also play her top where as he plays her mid so the builds are obviously going to be different. He goes for full burst on squishy mages while im trying to do sustain harass and have a CC for when ganks come. Your logic is faulty, damage reducers have equal synergy with resistances as they do health, since they only take into account your effective health, which is health*(1+resists/100). I could be wrong, but I think you misunderstand what he was saying. I think he's treating spellvampable life as bonus life; kind of like a giant's belt. There was nothing about damage reduction. Effective health scales multiplicatively with health and resists so when you can leech health, you don't need as much health items. nope im simply implying that damage reducers have much better synergy with hp then resistances because resistances only take into account 1 type of damage or the other, while HP nullifies both.
then your still wrong. you have some build whether its health or armor or mr or whatever you have 20% dmg reduction is 20%, end of story. if you are finding that you are building mr and getting killed by garen, thats in no way related.
what your stating is, i dislike armor because of magic dmg, so i get health to be safe against both, and therefore %reduce is good with health. its like me saying i like fruits but not vegetables, so im gonna go for a walk. is the walk good for me? yes. is it in anyway related to fruit vs vegetables? no.
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On January 09 2012 05:11 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 05:04 deskscaress wrote:On January 09 2012 04:49 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Also new topic of conversation: singed and RoA: yes or no?
The slow on rylais doesn't proc for its full effect with singed's poison and people are in the air for the duration of the slow on your fling so I know that's not a viable option, but singed doesn't need the mana, and his AP scaling is horrendous since he doesn't build magic pen and he has bad ratios. He just needs the sustain from the catalyst effect at early levels.
I hear that the only reason people still build RoA is that it used to be good on him before a few nerfs. >catalyst on singed gives him enough mana/regen/health/regen to be unharassable when combined with his ult >a tiny bit of AP goes a long way on singed because of the way poison works >the mana is baller for singed's passive >defensive items are not needed early because of his ult these are the reasons RoA is bought on singed my general singed build is cata -> boots2 -> RoA -> situational defensive item -> rylai -> defensive items -> WotA situationally I'm a fan of Randuin's and FoN for Singed's defensive items. I'll usually get them before Rylai's just to make him even more unstoppable. Team fights break out, you ult, ghost, and gun for the AD carry. I need to start playing singed more again, I just wish he didn't get trashed so hard by fotm tops though.
yeah, i like those items as well but sometimes i'll get banshee, thornmail, frozen heart, and rarely sunfire
the problem with singed right now is exactly what you said. he gets trashed by a lot of tops that aren't really top-bans. i prefer to ban shaco/rammus/morg/kennen as my top 4, but that still leaves a bunch of bans that are bad matchups for singed like riven and skarner top :|
i've seen some singed jungles in solo queue since dyrus did it and they're usually pretty successful tbh. i had one that got fb, proceeded to d/c for 3 levels, came back, got a double kill at level 4 on two level 6s, d/c for 2 levels, came back, get a double kill... etc etc etc. he ended up with more farm than any of our solo lanes too -_- (though to be fair i let him farm top every time he came back so he could catch up)
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On January 09 2012 04:55 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:49 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On January 09 2012 04:35 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:30 Brees wrote:On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good. Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her. He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her... sure, he doesnt take into account the interaction between W + E and flat hp. it is a reduced percentage like gragas which makes flat hp actually really good on katarina for when you go in. I also play her top where as he plays her mid so the builds are obviously going to be different. He goes for full burst on squishy mages while im trying to do sustain harass and have a CC for when ganks come. Your logic is faulty, damage reducers have equal synergy with resistances as they do health, since they only take into account your effective health, which is health*(1+resists/100). I could be wrong, but I think you misunderstand what he was saying. I think he's treating spellvampable life as bonus life; kind of like a giant's belt. There was nothing about damage reduction. Effective health scales multiplicatively with health and resists so when you can leech health, you don't need as much health items. nope im simply implying that damage reducers have much better synergy with hp then resistances because resistances only take into account 1 type of damage or the other, while HP nullifies both.
What you're saying has nothing to do with damage reducers. You're implying that health is better than resistances, which is sometimes true but obviously not always true.
If you're building spellvamp/lifesteal then health items are made relatively worse than resists.
On January 09 2012 04:49 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:35 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:30 Brees wrote:On January 09 2012 04:27 Kaniol wrote:On January 09 2012 04:24 Alzadar wrote:On January 09 2012 04:18 Brees wrote:
stop feedin the troll, the tried and true kat build will always be sorc/rylai's/gunblade. after that is situational but GA is pretty good. Do you have anything to back that up? He linked to a very good Katarina player saying Rylai's is trash on her. He didn't say that Rylai is a trash item, he said that it is a very situational item on her... sure, he doesnt take into account the interaction between W + E and flat hp. it is a reduced percentage like gragas which makes flat hp actually really good on katarina for when you go in. I also play her top where as he plays her mid so the builds are obviously going to be different. He goes for full burst on squishy mages while im trying to do sustain harass and have a CC for when ganks come. Your logic is faulty, damage reducers have equal synergy with resistances as they do health, since they only take into account your effective health, which is health*(1+resists/100). I could be wrong, but I think you misunderstand what he was saying. I think he's treating spellvampable life as bonus life; kind of like a giant's belt. There was nothing about damage reduction. Effective health scales multiplicatively with health and resists so when you can leech health, you don't need as much health items. Also new topic of conversation: singed and RoA: yes or no? The slow on rylais doesn't proc for its full effect with singed's poison and people are in the air for the duration of the slow on your fling so I know that's not a viable option, but singed doesn't need the mana, and his AP scaling is horrendous since he doesn't build magic pen and he has bad ratios. He just needs the sustain from the catalyst effect at early levels. I hear that the only reason people still build RoA is that it used to be good on him before a few nerfs.
Rod of Ages gives him more tankiness than any other item except Warmog's (which nobody seems to get ironically, even though it's better on Singed than ANYONE except Rammus), but it also gives lots of mana (which Singed does need, he'll run out without some kind of mana item) and AP, which does help his damage a bit.
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Catalyst is also the best lane sustain item in the game? don't forget that small detail.
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On January 09 2012 05:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Catalyst is also the best lane sustain item in the game? don't forget that small detail.
You mean potions?
13 health potion start huehuehuehue
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On January 09 2012 05:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Catalyst is also the best lane sustain item in the game? don't forget that small detail.
For a Catalyst to heal up more HP than Philo + Regrowth (~100 gold cheaper), you need to level once every 38 seconds. Which is almost once per wave. Not going to happen. You need more than 1 wave for lvl 2 even, right? When you finally can afford Cata, it'll take much longer. Cata doesn't actually proide as much sustain as people seem to think.
Obviously Cata actually builds into something useful, and also provides flat stats, but the pure sustain on it isn't spectacular.
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yes, building into aoe team movement speed buff/cdr/regen and paying for itself during the laning phase. philo stone sucks.
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Randuin's is sooo good on Singed because the only person who can take him down is the AD carry, and as soon as they start shooting him the slow procs and he flips them.
I also like building Shurelya's on Singed. You do have one already on the support, but I'd rather not have to rely on them to use it at the right time.
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On January 09 2012 06:02 turdburgler wrote:
yes, building into aoe team movement speed buff/cdr/regen and paying for itself during the laning phase. philo stone sucks.
I mainly said that because I expected someone to throw a "but having a Philo + Regrowth (both!) sucks as you won't build the Regrowth into anything decent anytime soon" or w/e at me. And some people who want lane sustain actually don't want Reverie.
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EPT
