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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. ===== + Show Spoiler +If your [Stream] thread was moved to the general TL Stream subforum (aka SC stream land), find your thread and PM it to me and I'll move it back to LoL territory. I can argue with staff that moving a non-SC thread into a SC subforum is just asking for that thread to get buried.
- Neo, Dec. 15 2011, 6:33 KST I have admin approval. I'll be moving LoL streams back to the subforum. Stream name will be based on Summoner name. - Neo 7:07 KST |
On December 19 2011 08:57 FuzzyLord wrote:
Problem with snowball items is that the second you get it, your get focused hard ----> losing stacks ----> losing effectiveness.
That's the point...You're the bruiser not the carry. Your job is to (among other things) tank the damage so your carry can do their job. If you can do something that makes your opponents want to attack you over the people they "should" be attacking then by all means you should be doing that.
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On December 19 2011 08:54 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:39 STS17 wrote:
You only need the bare minimum amount of defenses to survive with 1hp in a teamfight. Everything else is absolutely wasted money (in terms of survivability). As long as you are living in fights you can afford to spend some money on offense. I'm saying these items are viable options to spend that money on. While I used to use this argument when it came to bruisers and how they use their farm, it really is a hugely flawed argument. While survivability in and of itself doesn't directly improve your damage output, it affects the WAY in which you can play out fights, which DOES affect your damage output indirectly and very significantly. There's a huge difference between initiating a fight and then running away like a pussy, and being able to tank everything and not give a shit. You still come out of the fight alive in both scenarios, but the latter has you doing a LOT more damage and being a lot more useful. Survivability does scale your damage output and usefulness, and you really have to have to be absurdly overdoing it for survivability to not be useful.
If you're initiating a fight then "having to run away like a pussy" in order to survive then you don't have enough defensive stats and you made a mistake if you spend money on offensive stats at that point in the game. The argument isn't flawed, you're using failed applications of the argument to disprove it.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:01 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:57 FuzzyLord wrote:
Problem with snowball items is that the second you get it, your get focused hard ----> losing stacks ----> losing effectiveness.
That's the point...You're the bruiser not the carry. Your job is to (among other things) tank the damage so your carry can do their job. If you can do something that makes your opponents want to attack you over the people they "should" be attacking then by all means you should be doing that.
Getting people to attack you isn't useful unless you actually have the means to withstand being attacked. If you spend 2.6k on 2 pure damage items, you won't be any tankier than the carry you're trying to protect. They kill you in two seconds, then move on to your carry.
Bruisers have high base damages. Most of them build tanky, and force threat on themselves by presenting a threat to the enemy back line. They force focus because the alternative is to let your own team's squishies die.
On December 19 2011 09:06 STS17 wrote:
If you're initiating a fight then "having to run away like a pussy" in order to survive then you don't have enough defensive stats and you made a mistake if you spend money on offensive stats at that point in the game. The argument isn't flawed, you're using failed applications of the argument to disprove it.
OK, so don't build your offensive items till you get to the point where you're ahead enough that you can already tank the damage. Gotcha...
Except in any practical game where you're not absurdly ahead, you never GET to the point where you can afford to spend 2.6k gold on pure-offensive items. Unless you're drastically outpacing the enemy carries on gold gain, their damage output should ALWAYS be able to keep up with the rate of your defensive item building.
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Any of the higher elo guys around here know the members of Sypher? Got into a match with a smurf from sypher, but he wouldnt reveal his identity. He was a really nice guy and I want to help him by watching his stream. He spoke french and his smurf is Kopitz. 
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On December 19 2011 09:08 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 09:01 STS17 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:57 FuzzyLord wrote:
Problem with snowball items is that the second you get it, your get focused hard ----> losing stacks ----> losing effectiveness.
That's the point...You're the bruiser not the carry. Your job is to (among other things) tank the damage so your carry can do their job. If you can do something that makes your opponents want to attack you over the people they "should" be attacking then by all means you should be doing that. Getting people to attack you isn't useful unless you actually have the means to withstand being attacked. If you spend 2.6k on 2 pure damage items, you won't be any tankier than the carry you're trying to protect. They kill you in two seconds, then move on to your carry. Bruisers have high base damages. Most of them build tanky, and force threat on themselves by presenting a threat to the enemy back line. They force focus because the alternative is to let your own team's squishies die.
Where are you getting 2.6k gold? You aren't acting under the premise that a single character buy both soto and mejai's are you?
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United States47024 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:10 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 09:08 TheYango wrote:On December 19 2011 09:01 STS17 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:57 FuzzyLord wrote:
Problem with snowball items is that the second you get it, your get focused hard ----> losing stacks ----> losing effectiveness.
That's the point...You're the bruiser not the carry. Your job is to (among other things) tank the damage so your carry can do their job. If you can do something that makes your opponents want to attack you over the people they "should" be attacking then by all means you should be doing that. Getting people to attack you isn't useful unless you actually have the means to withstand being attacked. If you spend 2.6k on 2 pure damage items, you won't be any tankier than the carry you're trying to protect. They kill you in two seconds, then move on to your carry. Bruisers have high base damages. Most of them build tanky, and force threat on themselves by presenting a threat to the enemy back line. They force focus because the alternative is to let your own team's squishies die. Where are you getting 2.6k gold? You aren't acting under the premise that a single character buy both soto and mejai's are you?
That's what I thought you were implying. My mistake then.
My previous point still stands, you are VASTLY understating how large a 1k itemized disadvantage is. Getting a Longsword's worth of AD for 1400 gold makes a huge dent in your effectiveness in a close game. Again, the large difference in effectiveness that can be felt in competitive games between teams that are only ahead/behind by 2-4k gold is a testament to this.
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On December 19 2011 09:10 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 09:08 TheYango wrote:On December 19 2011 09:01 STS17 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:57 FuzzyLord wrote:
Problem with snowball items is that the second you get it, your get focused hard ----> losing stacks ----> losing effectiveness.
That's the point...You're the bruiser not the carry. Your job is to (among other things) tank the damage so your carry can do their job. If you can do something that makes your opponents want to attack you over the people they "should" be attacking then by all means you should be doing that. Getting people to attack you isn't useful unless you actually have the means to withstand being attacked. If you spend 2.6k on 2 pure damage items, you won't be any tankier than the carry you're trying to protect. They kill you in two seconds, then move on to your carry. Bruisers have high base damages. Most of them build tanky, and force threat on themselves by presenting a threat to the enemy back line. They force focus because the alternative is to let your own team's squishies die. Where are you getting 2.6k gold? You aren't acting under the premise that a single character buy both soto and mejai's are you?
Even if it's only SotO or just Mejais, it's still 1.2~1.4k gold and that's still significant and Yango's point still stands.
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I dunno why even ask the question if you just want to ignore what everyone says.
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United States47024 Posts
Looking at it another way, 1000 gold is 40 cs. Being 40 CS worth of items behind your lane opponent is VERY noticeable when you both are entering teamfights.
You can't say that paying 1400 for SotO and only getting ~400 gold worth of AD out of it immediately is "not a big deal" when all practical examples you can envision for that kind of a gold difference shows it as being a huge deal.
The BT and Warmog's examples are also not comparable because you can farm stacks from minions. You don't have to commit to a fight unless you're strong enough to fight it. With SotO or Mejai's, you are REQUIRED to fight to make the items cost-effective.
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it's not 'playing devil's advocate' to ignore the obvious
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I used to grab Mejais after Sheen with old GP solo top. AP GP with Lichbane + Mejais was amazing. With his old ult you could get stacks so easily by just watching the minimap, and with constant deny + Q farm meant that you could win lane so easily and never need to over extend. Probably not viable in ranked however. Stacking items cost too much early gold which should be spent on more gold efficient items.
Anyone else irritated by Colbycheeze's constant whining about Ryze? Ryze lost yesterday when Nyjacky played him against CLG. Ryze doesn't have the late game or AoE damage of a lot of AP carries, I don't think he is too out of line. Hard to kill and can nuke hard, but compare him to Cassiopiea, Karthus, or Annie and his damage isn't all that impressive.
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Of course it's significant. If it was insignificant people would do it already. You're spending money now on something that has the potential of being much better later on, but it's not guaranteed because the game could end beforehand. They have some stats on them but not too much compared to the price you paid and as such you're behind where you could be in the immediate moment.
Wait, that sounds a lot like the argument for getting gold/10 items.
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Anyway, Curse 1-0 Dignitas atm.
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On December 19 2011 09:20 STS17 wrote:
Of course it's significant. If it was insignificant people would do it already. You're spending money now on something that has the potential of being much better later on, but it's not guaranteed because the game could end beforehand. They have some stats on them but not too much compared to the price you paid and as such you're behind where you could be in the immediate moment.
Wait, that sounds a lot like the argument for getting gold/10 items.
Except Gp10's don't force you fight at a disadvantage to make them cost-effective.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:20 STS17 wrote:
Wait, that sounds a lot like the argument for getting gold/10 items.
I'm getting trolled hard, but as with the BT and Warmog's examples, you're ignoring the crucial difference between having to get stacks from champ kills and from being able to get them off minions/free gold.
Having snowball/stack items makes you worse immediately in fights. However, with stacks that can be recovered through farming/stalling, you can pull ahead by avoiding fights. Do you not see how silly it is to have items that immediately make you worse at fighting, but REQUIRE you to fight to catch up?
You can play around the immediate disadvantage of BT/Mog's/RoA/Gp10 items by stalling/farming. You can't similarly play around the disadvantage of snowball items.
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On December 19 2011 09:20 STS17 wrote:
Of course it's significant. If it was insignificant people would do it already. You're spending money now on something that has the potential of being much better later on, but it's not guaranteed because the game could end beforehand. They have some stats on them but not too much compared to the price you paid and as such you're behind where you could be in the immediate moment.
Wait, that sounds a lot like the argument for getting gold/10 items.
The difference is gold/10 items are [guaranteed to become cost efficient 10 minutes after you buy them and only become more cost efficient as the game goes on. Not to mention gold/10 items actually build into stuff that are extremely useful.
Stack items aren't efficient, won't necessarily become efficient, and don't build into shit.
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On December 19 2011 09:20 GreenManalishi wrote:
Anyone else irritated by Colbycheeze's constant whining about Ryze? Ryze lost yesterday when Nyjacky played him against CLG. Ryze doesn't have the late game or AoE damage of a lot of AP carries, I don't think he is too out of line. Hard to kill and can nuke hard, but compare him to Cassiopiea, Karthus, or Annie and his damage isn't all that impressive.
He has sustain damage and he's tanky. Sure, he doesn't burst like Annie or Brand but he isn't a burst caster he's a sustained damage caster. He doesn't do as much damage as Cass or Karthus but he can actually tank damage and survive burst unlike Cass and Karthus.
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On December 19 2011 09:20 GreenManalishi wrote:
Anyone else irritated by Colbycheeze's constant whining about Ryze? Ryze lost yesterday when Nyjacky played him against CLG. Ryze doesn't have the late game or AoE damage of a lot of AP carries, I don't think he is too out of line. Hard to kill and can nuke hard, but compare him to Cassiopiea, Karthus, or Annie and his damage isn't all that impressive.
Wut...Ryze has amazing late game...Unkillable and does a ton of damage with to his near non-existent cds cause of his passive. His early game can be strong depending on his matchups. Ryze is weakest mid-game but is a monster lategame.
Annie has one combo, then she's more or less done. Her Q and W are really strong, but their cooldowns are pretty significant. Karthus/Cassiopeia are lategame monsters due to their insane scaling and dps, but they're both really squishy. Ryze may do less damage per skill, but his shits extremely spammable and he's basically unkillable.
I don't think Ryze is all that out of line 'cause he needs a ton of farm, but he's definitely really powerful.
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On December 19 2011 09:24 Aukai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 09:20 STS17 wrote:
Of course it's significant. If it was insignificant people would do it already. You're spending money now on something that has the potential of being much better later on, but it's not guaranteed because the game could end beforehand. They have some stats on them but not too much compared to the price you paid and as such you're behind where you could be in the immediate moment.
Wait, that sounds a lot like the argument for getting gold/10 items. Except Gp10's don't force you fight at a disadvantage to make them cost-effective.
You're right, they force you to play passively and farm and avoid fighting while at a disadvantage. While someone who opts not to get them and instead get more immediately cost-efficient items can take advantage of that by forcing you into a fight while you're at a disadvantage. In essence they promote the opposite of what soto/mejai's promotes you to do. Believe it or not some teams want to be aggressive
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EPT
