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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. ===== + Show Spoiler +If your [Stream] thread was moved to the general TL Stream subforum (aka SC stream land), find your thread and PM it to me and I'll move it back to LoL territory. I can argue with staff that moving a non-SC thread into a SC subforum is just asking for that thread to get buried.
- Neo, Dec. 15 2011, 6:33 KST I have admin approval. I'll be moving LoL streams back to the subforum. Stream name will be based on Summoner name. - Neo 7:07 KST |
On December 19 2011 08:03 STS17 wrote:
What's the consensus about using snowball items to force focus fire on champions you want to be focused?
Consider the basic strategy of teamfights: Focus down the AD and AP carries quickly to deny the other team their primary damage sources while keeping yours alive then deal with the tankier members of their team. There are many nuances that help this or hinder your opponents from doing this (like peeling for example) but overall your goal of killing their carry while keeping yours alive in a teamfight remains the same.
However, putting SotO and Mejai's on your bruisers basically says to the enemy team "You gotta kill me before my stacks get up or I'll be able to rape all of you in the next teamfight" and greatly encourages a team to kill the one holding them. However, the enemy team focusing your damage on your tanky members is exactly what you want them to do because it leaves your real carries to do what they do best: melt faces.
The items themselves are not extremely expensive either and can be gotten fairly easily in the midgame after you have some decent defensive items up.
um in games where people are tryharding / competitive games
a snowball item is 1000+ gold and gives less stats than elixirs -_-
you're not going to get a single stack unless you're already 2000 gold ahead of your counterpart on the enemy team. you'll just die.
instead of 2 snowball items you can get an aura item, which gives just as much stats overall than a fully stacked mejais/soto.
in a normal blind pick game? even if you're 0-5?
always build snowball items because people will go full derp for you! ;D
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On December 19 2011 08:12 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:07 JackDino wrote:However, putting SotO and Mejai's on your bruisers basically says to the enemy team "You gotta kill me before my stacks get up or I'll be able to rape all of you in the next teamfight" and greatly encourages a team to kill the one holding them. However, the enemy team focusing your damage on your tanky members is exactly what you want them to do because it leaves your real carries to do what they do best: melt faces. No, this actually says lol you have worthless snowball items with no stacks we just gonna kill your team. I would say that's an ignorant statement. You're assuming a bruiser is magically useless because he's spent ~1400 gold on 10 attack damage or 1200g on 20 ap instead of something that is initially more cost efficient. That's like saying buying warmogs or BT make you useless because they aren't the most cost-efficient items in the game when you first buy them.
That could've been a revolver(on a bruiser like rumble for example) or like a giant's belt to make you much more tankier, or even a chain vest and a hp crystal. It's like saying missing out 1200g on cs won't put you behind a lot compared to the enemy.
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On December 19 2011 08:12 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:07 JackDino wrote:However, putting SotO and Mejai's on your bruisers basically says to the enemy team "You gotta kill me before my stacks get up or I'll be able to rape all of you in the next teamfight" and greatly encourages a team to kill the one holding them. However, the enemy team focusing your damage on your tanky members is exactly what you want them to do because it leaves your real carries to do what they do best: melt faces. No, this actually says lol you have worthless snowball items with no stacks we just gonna kill your team. I would say that's an ignorant statement. You're assuming a bruiser is magically useless because he's spent ~1400 gold on 10 attack damage or 1200g on 20 ap instead of something that is initially more cost efficient. That's like saying buying warmogs or BT make you useless because they aren't the most cost-efficient items in the game when you first buy them.
Wut. First off, Warmogs and BT are cost efficient from the moment you buy them. Stacks on Warmogs and BT just makes them more cost efficient. Whereas stack items are initially cost inefficient by a large margin and generally don't become efficient until 3+ stacks and don't catch up to items of similar gold value until something like 8+ stacks.
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At 5.4 stacks you match the cost efficiency of a BF Sword. It's not that hard to get 5-6 stacks if you weren't behind when you got the item
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On December 19 2011 08:23 STS17 wrote:
At 5.4 stacks you match the cost efficiency of a BF Sword. It's not that hard to get 5-6 stacks if you weren't behind when you got the item
uhm, not sure if troll but the only reason you even build BF swords is to get IE or BT which are infinitely more useful than SotO which builds into nothing
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Wrong letter, same result. Don't do it.
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On December 19 2011 08:26 Aukai wrote:
He's a Troll.
Excuse me if asking a question to generate discussion on a point then playing devil's advocate because the general populous presumes that the current norm is the best possible solution to all problems makes me a troll.
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On December 19 2011 08:28 STS17 wrote:Excuse me if asking a question to generate discussion on a point then playing devil's advocate because the general populous presumes that the current norm is the best possible solution to all problems makes me a troll.
Snowball Items are Trash. If you get them and win chances are you could have built 6 boots of swiftness and still won.
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Your theory revolves around making a bruiser, whose job is to be tanky and constantly in the face of the carries, squishy thanks to carry snowball items with stats they barely want.
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I get mejais all the time on ahri because its so hard to die with her.
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On December 19 2011 08:23 STS17 wrote:
At 5.4 stacks you match the cost efficiency of a BF Sword. It's not that hard to get 5-6 stacks if you weren't behind when you got the item
Okay, sure, but it's a dead end item and it's not gonna build into anything more useful. whereas if you got a belt or BF sword you can upgrade it into a better item and for a stack item to match those items it's going to take a significant amount of stacks.
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On December 19 2011 08:29 Aukai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:28 STS17 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:26 Aukai wrote:
He's a Troll. Excuse me if asking a question to generate discussion on a point then playing devil's advocate because the general populous presumes that the current norm is the best possible solution to all problems makes me a troll. Snowball Items are Trash. If you get them and win chances are you could have built 6 boots of swiftness and still won.
Have you run it? Personally, not just hearsay. I mean this is TeamLiquid after all, where people spend hours testing builds in starcraft to perfect timings to exploit the most subtle assumptions of their opponent. Yet nobody ever does that in League of Legends here, you just assume that anything different is automatically bad or suboptimal.
Run it. In serious games, not just troll for-fun games. I guarantee you it's not nearly as trash as you suggest it is.
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Uh, just sayin', SotO and Meijai's are legit good if you buy them as first item and can manage a positive K/D. I doubt they're something people are gonna run in the competitive scene but most people on TL aren't playing LoL competitively. For certain champs, if you know you can go positive K/D, one of the snowball items is a perfectly reasonable investment.
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On December 19 2011 08:29 Craton wrote:
Your theory revolves around making a bruiser, whose job is to be tanky and constantly in the face of the carries, squishy thanks to carry snowball items with stats they barely want.
No. The theory revolves around the basic fact that these bruisers naturally do lots of damage (otherwise they would be ignorable) and usually scale fairly well with minimal offensive stats. This is what allows them to build tanky in the first place. Getting the relevant snowball item to amplify their offensive stats if they aren't dealt with in teamfights.
You only need the bare minimum amount of defenses to survive with 1hp in a teamfight. Everything else is absolutely wasted money (in terms of survivability). As long as you are living in fights you can afford to spend some money on offense. I'm saying these items are viable options to spend that money on.
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Bruisers scale poorly with AD (and almost nonexistantly with AP). They have high base values and low ratios. That's why you go for tanky builds with 1 or 2 offensive items maximum (and these generally are also partly defensive, e.g. atma's armor, triforce's hp, wit's MR, etc). You're proposing to build carry items (of already questionable effectiveness) on something that wants to be tanky, which is bad. You will run into the fight and die instantly. You will not be tanky like you think.
Additional note:
It seems GD is quickly reaching the SC2 level of "theorycraft" where people would make threads about "what if X" without putting the slightest bit of effort into trying it beforehand.
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In serious games aka not solo q or arranged 5's full of 1400 solo q players, you'll see less than 5 kills in 15 minutes most of the time. >.>
Like even in a game today, FB happened at the 10 minute mark. Even extremely high kill games for professional play only would be 20 kills on one side, and that's over a 40 minute game.
They're really cost efficient fully stacked but........yeah...............not going to actually happen in a "real" game. But yeah for trolly stuff or normals they're fine if you do well. They're still really slot efficient (when fully stacked)
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On December 19 2011 08:45 Craton wrote:
Bruisers scale poorly with AD (and almost nonexistantly with AP). They have high base values and low ratios.
Jarvan, Lee Sin, Garen, Udyr, Renekton and Trundle have great AD ratios so i wouldn't say that is true.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 19 2011 08:12 STS17 wrote:
I would say that's an ignorant statement. You're assuming a bruiser is magically useless because he's spent ~1400 gold on 10 attack damage or 1200g on 20 ap instead of something that is initially more cost efficient. That's like saying buying warmogs or BT make you useless because they aren't the most cost-efficient items in the game when you first buy them.
Warmog's and BT ARE cost-efficient out of the gate, they just pull ahead of other stuff.
And yes, spending 1400 gold on 10 AD makes a huge difference. Consider how big of a difference small global gold differences in the range of ~2k to ~4k gold feel when you're watching a competitive game. Buying a snowball item is basically willingly imposing a 1k gold disadvantage on yourself.
In the case of most lower-level games, a 1k gold difference like that doesn't matter because you can easily build up an advantage larger than that against worse players.
On December 19 2011 08:39 STS17 wrote:
You only need the bare minimum amount of defenses to survive with 1hp in a teamfight. Everything else is absolutely wasted money (in terms of survivability). As long as you are living in fights you can afford to spend some money on offense. I'm saying these items are viable options to spend that money on.
While I used to use this argument when it came to bruisers and how they use their farm, it really is a hugely flawed argument. While survivability in and of itself doesn't directly improve your damage output, it affects the WAY in which you can play out fights, which DOES affect your damage output indirectly and very significantly.
There's a huge difference between initiating a fight and then running away like a pussy, and being able to tank everything and not give a shit. You still come out of the fight alive in both scenarios, but the latter has you doing a LOT more damage and being a lot more useful. Survivability does scale your damage output and usefulness, and you really have to have to be absurdly overdoing it for survivability to not be useful.
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Problem with snowball items is that the second you get it, your get focused hard ----> losing stacks ----> losing effectiveness.
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EPT
