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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. ===== + Show Spoiler +If your [Stream] thread was moved to the general TL Stream subforum (aka SC stream land), find your thread and PM it to me and I'll move it back to LoL territory. I can argue with staff that moving a non-SC thread into a SC subforum is just asking for that thread to get buried.
- Neo, Dec. 15 2011, 6:33 KST I have admin approval. I'll be moving LoL streams back to the subforum. Stream name will be based on Summoner name. - Neo 7:07 KST |
On December 26 2011 16:02 starfries wrote:
My #1 sleeper OP would be Olaf. If people actually played him I would put him as a top ban. CANNOT BE DISABLED BRO
Also I have no idea why Kennen and Ryze are not permaban status. They're hard to counter, scale well, fit into lots of teams and destroy unprepared ones. I'm ok with it though since I main Kennen with Ryze as a backup c:
Ryze is great and very strong in the early-mid game but drops off much faster than most other AP champions. Champions that scale off of AP and have strong ratios have a great timing when you get a Deathcap right when you're transitioning out of the laning phase and start focusing on objectives and teamfights, giving you "holy shit I need a negatron" levels of damage. Ryze can blow people up, but his relative damage is apexing at that stage of the game - other AP's are just ramping up.
So while Ryze's scaling is great, he's a beast in lane, and he has a strong late-game, that one specific timing is his weakness that just turns me off from playing him regularly.
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How do people build TF? Even if you're building him as an AP (which I think is best), I feel you can't just ignore his kit and building him as a burst caster isn't good to generate good results.
I've been tinkering with a TF build over a handful of games, and this is the best I've come up with:
Boots, Sheen, Malady, Rageblade, Frozen Mallet, Lichbane*, Void Staff*
*I've never actually gotten to this point, the games have been ending too early
The Sheen seems like an obvious choice, it's cheap and cost effective and you benefit from all of the stats. Malady gives you some AP which is nice, extra magic damage on your autos, attack speed for proc'ing your E and MR shred which is all around good. Then you get the Guinsoo's which is boosted already by Malady (that's why I get it first), gives you very cost efficient AP + even more attack speed, and it's easy to maintain stacks. At this point you start needing some defence because you need to be close to the action to be effective, so Frozen Mallet seems like a good choice. Lots of health + the passive fits in perfectly with how you function. I tried Rod of Ages instead a bit but it's a bit late in the game to be getting it and I didn't really like it much. Lichbane and Void Staff seem like natural endgame items.
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Building him as a burst caster with Deathcap Lichbane as a core is the way to go. You have a good amount of poke and kiting ability. Building onhit items requires him to stay within his 525 attack range, which is far too close in a fight. If a vlad plays that close as an AP, you are certainly more squishy and won't survive. It's hard to pay attention to dodge the cards in a fight, particularly if you are stunned or slowed, and squishier heroes will lose 10-20% of their health (or more) when hit. Your ult allows you to pick up fleeing heroes, generally if the fight was won or indecisive your ult can pick up a hero. Failing that it gives your team an advantage fighting around bushes if you activate it during the fight.
Hybrid TF is just not as good as straight AP TF, especially considering that AP TF only needs to get in range of the melee creeps to farm the whole wave, since Wild Cards will 1 hit minions pretty much all game once you hit level 9 with some AP.
AP TF has some very reliable 30-40+% health burst versus squishier heroes on a 5 second or so cooldown. If you are looking for a hero that excels in a teamfight, look elsewhere. If you want a strong ganking hero with ability to split push very well, TF is a great choice. Generally you want your jungler or solo top to also be AP based, as TF doesn't contribute as much reliable damage in a teamfight as most other AP carries.
That being said, I'm just learning TF still.
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On December 26 2011 16:44 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 16:27 FieryBalrog wrote:On December 26 2011 16:27 Two_DoWn wrote:
Every blue and red belongs to the jungle unless THEY choose to give it up. If you want one, dont be a dick. Certainly not in terms of what's best for the team. Whats best for the team is having 4 fully functioning characters and a ward bitch. And in order for that to happen, you need to support the jungle. One of the marks of a good jungle is knowing WHEN to hand off buffs. Dont forget that blue, especially in the new jungle, is HIGHLY valuable. It gives the most gold and exp (along with red) of any camp. And your mid will get that with 3 last hits. If you really wanted to argue what was best for the team, it would be that mid lane just plays safe, last hits, while the jungle is able to use blue to make faster clears. Not to mention the fact that in terms of benefit, it is very hard to argue that a blue on your mid is any more efficient than blue on your jungle. Does it make laning easier? You bet. Is it a be all and end all? No. Especially, when you can just build around not having blue buff. Realistically, all blue does is give clearing power to mid. Thats it. But the problem is it is VERY hard to actually do anything with that advantage, outside of a few champs like zilean and leblanc who can zoom around and actually do shit while their lane is pushed up. But even then you will take an exp and gold loss. Now contrast that with what happens if the jungle has blue. They have a much easier time keeping clear speeds up, open themselves up to have ganks at higher levels of health, all while their mid can be perfectly safe just autoing creeps. The gain is much higher on a jungle than it is on a typical mid lane. Now, the reason that you DO see handoffs at a tournament level is because those players are actually capable of using the wave clearing power that blue brings in order to secure objectives like dragons, buffs, and towers. Any level lower than that and its just a complete crapshoot as to who can make better use of blue- whoever is the better player at either position will make better use of it. Flat out. At least until the jungle decides he is sufficiently itemized to justify handoffs. So yes. It is always the junglers blue and red.
Mid will typically be higher level and more gold (so better items) than the jungler, If the other mid has blue while your mid doesn't, this can often mean he'll win the lane hard whereas he otherwise wouldn't. That can also set up the mid roaming to top or bottom for ganks, which are a lot stronger than jungler ganks. And once the jungler has wriggles clearing a jungle is a non-issue anyway, that is why blue is better suited on the mid after the first or second spawn.
There are exceptions ofcourse, if your mid is say vladimir, or if in soloqueue the jungler got quite a number of kills already and is stronger than the mid, or your mid sucks and he'll not put it to use anyway. But generally your mid will both be stronger AND an AP caster and benefit from blue the most.
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Especially when the jungler is Lee Sin and your mid is Orianna...
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Blue is actually really good on LS because of the energy regen and CDR.
And I'm not saying never give blues away. I am saying that blue is ALWAYS better on whoever has the most positive impact from having it, not just because "its second blue spawn it goes to mid." If the jungle can still use it effectively to increase clear times by a sizable margin then it belongs on the jungle. End of story. Early game, jungle can use it more effectively. Thats why jungle gets first blue. If they by the second spawn they still need it, they get it as well. Thats why the buff ALWAYS goes to jungle first, and only transitions after the jungle is comfortable without it.
The problem is people see shit on streams and immediately copy it and assume it is the only way to play without actually having a full understanding of WHY it is done. So you end up with half truths like LS should ALWAYS give away blue to Ori, when there are quite a few circumstances where the LAST thing you want is to trade blue away. Like, say, your LS gets fucked over at level 1 by a bad pull and needs to catch up.
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On December 26 2011 17:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Blue is actually really good on LS because of the energy regen and CDR.
And I'm not saying never give blues away. I am saying that blue is ALWAYS better on whoever has the most positive impact from having it, not just because "its second blue spawn it goes to mid." If the jungle can still use it effectively to increase clear times by a sizable margin then it belongs on the jungle. End of story. Early game, jungle can use it more effectively. Thats why jungle gets first blue. If they by the second spawn they still need it, they get it as well. Thats why the buff ALWAYS goes to jungle first, and only transitions after the jungle is comfortable without it.
The problem is people see shit on streams and immediately copy it and assume it is the only way to play without actually having a full understanding of WHY it is done. So you end up with half truths like LS should ALWAYS give away blue to Ori, when there are quite a few circumstances where the LAST thing you want is to trade blue away. Like, say, your LS gets fucked over at level 1 by a bad pull and needs to catch up.
Except this has nothing to do with what I was saying. It's not like the jungler made some calculated strategic decision like that. The jungler was raging about one thing that happened and decided to hold a grudge for the rest of the game (not "until I catch up") which is pretty clear from his own words. So I don't know where you're going with this anyway, because obvious petulance isn't secretly a strategic move.
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On December 26 2011 17:55 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 17:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Blue is actually really good on LS because of the energy regen and CDR.
And I'm not saying never give blues away. I am saying that blue is ALWAYS better on whoever has the most positive impact from having it, not just because "its second blue spawn it goes to mid." If the jungle can still use it effectively to increase clear times by a sizable margin then it belongs on the jungle. End of story. Early game, jungle can use it more effectively. Thats why jungle gets first blue. If they by the second spawn they still need it, they get it as well. Thats why the buff ALWAYS goes to jungle first, and only transitions after the jungle is comfortable without it.
The problem is people see shit on streams and immediately copy it and assume it is the only way to play without actually having a full understanding of WHY it is done. So you end up with half truths like LS should ALWAYS give away blue to Ori, when there are quite a few circumstances where the LAST thing you want is to trade blue away. Like, say, your LS gets fucked over at level 1 by a bad pull and needs to catch up. Except this has nothing to do with what I was saying. It's not like the jungler made some calculated strategic decision like that. The jungler was raging about one thing that happened and decided to hold a grudge for the rest of the game (not "until I catch up") which is pretty clear from his own words. So I don't know where you're going with this anyway, because obvious petulance isn't secretly a strategic move.
Well, your post implied that LS needs to give blue to orianna "for the good of the team." You have STATED that in multiple subsequent posts.
I just pointed out a situation where LS doesnt want to give blue away, which, as it turns out, was kind of exactly the same one you described.
As for "petulance" or whatever- I am sure TOO was pissed. However, that doesnt mean that it was the sole reason he did what he did. Just because someone is mad doesnt mean it is the wrong decision. Not to mention the fact that TOO is the 2nd best jungler in the whole freakin world. So it REALLY isnt all that much of a stretch to think that he might just do the right thing out of practice and game knowledge, all the while vocalizing his frustration to his audience as a way to vent. If he didnt pass blue along even late game, then ya, he was salty. But it doesnt mean that all his actions early game were somehow wrong. He probably just felt like venting and didnt want to bother taking the time to explain everything that I just did in order to fully convey why he did shit. Much easier to hide behind the veil of being pissed off.
It doesnt change the fact that not passing blue was the proper strategic play.
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It was the whole game, and at one point he said he didn't care who got what buff as long as Ori didn't get it. While raging all early game about how Ori was barely holding lane vs Ahri (chu8) who was constantly fed blue.
Also, I have no idea how you determined it was the proper strategic play without watching the game....
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I thought this should be said, because people sometimes blame people for mistakes things that couldn't have been done differently. If you or one of your teammates, gets stomped by someone with a higher elo (which you can only know after the game), it isn't their fault. You can't blame someone for losing to someone who is more skilled. Now if you lose to someone who is way below you then you really have no excuse.
Also on a brighter note 2 of my last games were some of the biggest comebacks you could ever see. Lose for 49 minutes, win for the last 1:30 that ends the game. And the other team walking into rumble ulti, amumu ulti, brand ulti and all his jizz, with a vayne to clean up. Luckily no one on the teams completely raged and just started insulting the one person who was responsible for such a terrible position in the games, but instead mentioned the terrible things but kept playing to win. I'm too used to being on the team that throws a won game away -_- .
On December 26 2011 18:28 FieryBalrog wrote:
It was the whole game, and at one point he said he didn't care who got what buff as long as Ori didn't get it. While raging all early game about how Ori was barely holding lane vs Ahri (chu8) who was constantly fed blue.
Also, I have no idea how you determined it was the proper strategic play without watching the game....
The only legitimate excuse for keeping blue buff off your ap carry during laning is because you don't want them to feed it to the other ap carry. I do understand TOO frustration of not getting a pull. It costs you 5-10 seconds, and hundreds of hp. That could easily mean you can't gank while the other jungler can, or you have something stolen from you, or you get ganked in your own jungle. You should always try pulling to the best of your ability for your jungler. Don't get me started on junglers who play like the game is PvE.
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This isn't exactly the point of the discussion but 2d is right - buffs belong to the jungler and it's up to him if he wants to give them away.
Giving buffs is just like calling mia - while most of the time you should do it, you shouldn't be bitching if your allies don't do it
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chaox just hit 2400, real troll game it was too.
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Ryze always get blue, never not get blue.
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Chaox is frighteningly good right now, he's dominating his lane and leading the team at the same time. #1 terror. It's too bad there's no tournies for a while.
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On December 26 2011 19:03 Kaniol wrote:
This isn't exactly the point of the discussion but 2d is right - buffs belong to the jungler and it's up to him if he wants to give them away.
Giving buffs is just like calling mia - while most of the time you should do it, you shouldn't be bitching if your allies don't do it
Yes, buffs belong to the jungler, but if you want to win the game it's usually best to give blue to your ap carry.
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can someone give a general guideline for jungle poppy - masteries, opening & runes?
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Is everyone gonna just ignore r.evo? (to be fair its kind of hard to understand lol)
I was going to say this in my post but i was afraid of it being wordy...now i don't have to worry so much. I think a lot of it has to do with not only the player's personalities but also the roles they play. Reginald is really emotional and he channels his anger (sublimates...german words hell yes) as AP carry he has a huge and very personal stake in winning the game depending on how his lane went. Mid lane has to leave and gank a lot, and it also gets hit by the jungler at least twice as often as top and bottom just because it's in the middle of the map. So to do well as AP mid you have to pay attention to everyone on both teams as well as your opponent's and your own abilities, as well as your opponents and your own summoners, etc, etc... It's a fucking gigantic responsibility and I think reginald is aware of this which is why he chose to play only ap carry--he needs that emotional hook to keep him playing. Chaox plays a role where you can justify your losses by looking at your cs and saying that you tried as hard as you could, the rest of your team lost. (I'd say dyrus plays like this too but doesn't like playing AD carry.)
The big problem is that these are all really solo queue mentalities. In solo queue ap mid not only decides how well he plays but also when and where fights happen by choosing to gank and stick around or not. TRM famously only looks at his lane and then shrugs off failures by blaming other people. Chaox just farms the whole game. On the other hand if you watch shushei he is literally most of the time playing in a duo queue at least, maybe a 3v3 or 5v5, and he doesn't take solo queue games all that seriously. Even when he is totally alone at least he can play with his dog... I feel like it's too late for reginald and the rest of TSM to get this kind of teamwork, not sure why but they just can't ever seem to coordinate things well. This makes it so that what you hear them say on stream is basically them talking to themselves. The lack of coordination in solo queue is exciting, frustrating and satisfying for TOO and regi as well as boring and unimportant to TRM and chaox. And sadly this is probably why they get so much money streaming: they are simulating and perpetuating LoL being an exhausting personal experience instead of something fun to do with friends.
Writing this made me think, maybe TOO and TRM should switch places. Reginald and chaox seem emotionally better fit for their roles. I can imagine TRM becoming more like saintvicious because there are gaps of time as a jungler where you get to think about your mistakes, which he never does now. And TOO would be more relaxed if he could just chill out in lane all day. And maybe they should get a dog for their house too
edit: to address r.evo's post, i really agree that #1 psych analysis of people while streaming is legit because they reveal their real emotions because they don't have time to hide them
#2 chaox gets to act cool and detached because he wins all the time because nobody can beat someone who just sits in lane and cses all day. chaox is good but he's not smarter than everyone below 2400 elo, he just plays the most well-defined role and only plays that for 10 hours a day and he just wins more games than most people because of it. i remember in one vlog he explicitly said that AD carry is getting boring for him because it's just too fucking easy. this goes into my point about how they are suited for different roles basically.
#3 the fact that reginald uploads lots of games where he loses (or he used to at least) and chaox doesn't is kind of revealing. chaox doesn't really like thinking about how he lost. in his marathon series he would sometimes play normals because he didn't think he could win a ranked game with a champion, and if he lost he would just say "aw this is worthless" and redo the game.
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Eh, I can relate to that, as I've started some months ago to try to monitor my plays and behaviour so that I can be a better premade-buddy after I was told several times over skype ho lame I was in certain situations. 4 premade teammates are an audience, too. 
And then you tell yourself "But- hey, he's been talking about how you can manipulate people with the way you phrase things and make them accept stuff, and now he just got me to agree with him... WHAT IF IT'S WRONG AND HE'S JUST MANIPULATING MEEEEE °0°". I'd bet even the whole "I'm sick T-T" is a scam to make us believe that he's vulnerable and thus enticing carelessness! r.Evo, you sick, sick bastard.
On a somewhat more serious tone, your ramblings are fun to read. Not sure if the sickness' got as much to do with it as the spontaneousness it triggers.
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EPT
