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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 01 2011 01:32 Requizen wrote:
Make an item that gives lifesteal/spellvamp off neutral mobs only. Bam, jungle-only item for sustain, balance around that.
Rough idea, but there needs to be some kind separation between lane and jungle items if you want Junglers to act differently from laners.
but then how do you 'ever' gank? "hi, i have +50 ad, 10% lifesteal and 30 armor, but only against creeps" a solo top like jax is just gonna thank you for the dodge procs while he rips his lane opponent a new one during your "gank"
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On December 01 2011 00:40 Hynda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 00:36 DoXa wrote:On November 30 2011 23:48 xDaunt wrote:On November 30 2011 18:09 wussleeQ wrote:wow. rofl. it didn't take long for them to say we fucked up Seriously? They're changing it already? How bush-league is Riot? It's like they don't even test major gameplay overhauls before implementing them. why do some people have to be so negative? they are doing this one day after the patch was applied, which is really fast. be happy that they are listening to the community, which is pretty rare in other games. They are also hiring Gametester, they are probably just understaffed. The problem is that it was implemented at all. How can they not have good enough testers. it took everyone about 2 matches to figure out that the new jungle sucked balls, and it was unison.
When a new champ is announced, it takes people only 5 minutes to figure out that the new champ is OP. Then it only takes them 2 matches to realize the champ is shit. Then it takes them 2 weeks to realize without buffs that the champ is not that bad. Than after a full month people realize what the champ actually is supposed to do.
What people "figure out" in 2 matches doesn't mean shit, because 2 matches isn't giving it the time it needs to be figured out.
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On December 01 2011 01:36 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:32 Requizen wrote:
a solo top like jax is just gonna thank you for the dodge procs while he rips his lane opponent a new one during your "gank" but then how do you 'ever' gank? "hi, i have +50 ad, 10% lifesteal and 30 armor, but only against creeps" a solo top like jax is just gonna thank you for the dodge procs while he rips his lane opponent a new one during your "gank"
Not any more.
Honestly, 10% lifesteal isn't gonna make that much difference in a gank.
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I don't understand Riot's design philosophy in releasing changes over time. With just very small numbers tweaks every few weeks, the game will change and evolve on its own even with very little direction from Riot. Especially with new champions released so frequently.
Riot should just have all major changes in store for one MAJOR patch. They wanted to change things; well, they should have done it all at once for season 2. Dodge removal, champion skills rework, masteries change, jungle change, sustain nerf...they should come at the same time. It is utterly ridiculous that they would make changes in isolation, completely wreck the game balance, force players to learn a new game for a couple weeks...then destroy it again. We already have seen how imbalanced the new masteries are, and clearly how little testing went into its design.
Basically - stop rushing changes, release PTR with sweeping game changes and make sure that stuff is good to go beforehand. Riot already committed to completely changing the game; there's no reason not to do it all at once, and let the players playtest it ahead of time. You have a more balanced game, happier players, and only ONE time where players are confused what to do, instead of every two weeks. And it's even less work for Riot, if they had the foresight to actually plan this stuff.
When (strategical) innovation in a game is synonymous with keeping up game mechanics the developer is releasing, that's just bad design.
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On December 01 2011 01:21 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:14 phyvo wrote:On December 01 2011 01:06 redtooth wrote:On December 01 2011 00:55 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 01 2011 00:40 Hynda wrote:On December 01 2011 00:36 DoXa wrote:On November 30 2011 23:48 xDaunt wrote:On November 30 2011 18:09 wussleeQ wrote:wow. rofl. it didn't take long for them to say we fucked up Seriously? They're changing it already? How bush-league is Riot? It's like they don't even test major gameplay overhauls before implementing them. why do some people have to be so negative? they are doing this one day after the patch was applied, which is really fast. be happy that they are listening to the community, which is pretty rare in other games. They are also hiring Gametester, they are probably just understaffed. The problem is that it was implemented at all. How can they not have good enough testers. it took everyone about 2 matches to figure out that the new jungle sucked balls, and it was unison. There isn't 2 camps in this pretty much the entire community hated the changes. If the jungle is supposed to be like this I'm just going to drop it. There are like 3 viable junglers now. Riots mentally has always been that they punch someone in the face and then apologise really fast so that people can say "Oh, look how nice he is, he apologise for his bad behaviour" instead of just not running around punching people.And to add to this NOBODY was complaining about the jungle. They are changing something that was close to perfect into something that sucks major balls. and yes, I am almost exclusivly jungling these days, but unless this gets changed I am just going to drop it, that's how bad the change is. From my favourite role to "I rather play support" This is an absolutely ridiculous comparison. They are not hurting people. They are changing the way the game is working. I don't believe they have malicious intent. High sustain champs have been a huge issue this year, especially top lane. These are often champions that are also very good in the jungle. By reducing how much sustain is necessary in the jungle, I believe they can start hitting the high sustain champs and make the game more dynamic. Top lane is pretty much just a farm fest after a while, which is pretty boring, imo. Sure, it's fun to come into the team fights after 20 minutes of afk farm to hit people hard. The issue is that it requires 20 minutes of afk farming. Now, this is coming from someone who mains AP mid, and dabbles elsewhere. I'm by no means a good jungler, but this is just my viewpoint. If I'm wrong, I have no problem being corrected, but I don't think it's necessary to go off on RIOT for messing around with game mechanics. first off i don't understand how changing jungle would effect top lane at all. if anything it gives an advantage to farm-fest heroes as they are less worried about red-buff-rape and junglers can't keep up. secondly, i think right now top lane is the single most dynamic lane in the game. you can count on one hand the top viable picks in mid, support, and carry. jungling you might need two hands. but at top literally it's anybody's game and based heavily on matchups. really don't think that TOP is the lane that needs to become more dynamic. The point is that a lot of champions have imba sustain because it's necessary for them to jungle. Nerfing the jungle creeps and adding sigils makes sustain less of an issue, allowing a wider variety of junglers and allowing you to nerf ridiculous sustain on champ kits, health pots, and lifesteal in general. Heck the only reason they BUFFED Nasus' passive awhile ago was because they wanted him to jungle better. That said they changed a whole lot more than just jungle creep damage in the revamp and have not changed sustain beyond health potions. Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 00:55 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 01 2011 00:40 Hynda wrote:On December 01 2011 00:36 DoXa wrote:On November 30 2011 23:48 xDaunt wrote:On November 30 2011 18:09 wussleeQ wrote:wow. rofl. it didn't take long for them to say we fucked up Seriously? They're changing it already? How bush-league is Riot? It's like they don't even test major gameplay overhauls before implementing them. why do some people have to be so negative? they are doing this one day after the patch was applied, which is really fast. be happy that they are listening to the community, which is pretty rare in other games. They are also hiring Gametester, they are probably just understaffed. The problem is that it was implemented at all. How can they not have good enough testers. it took everyone about 2 matches to figure out that the new jungle sucked balls, and it was unison. There isn't 2 camps in this pretty much the entire community hated the changes. If the jungle is supposed to be like this I'm just going to drop it. There are like 3 viable junglers now. Riots mentally has always been that they punch someone in the face and then apologise really fast so that people can say "Oh, look how nice he is, he apologise for his bad behaviour" instead of just not running around punching people.And to add to this NOBODY was complaining about the jungle. They are changing something that was close to perfect into something that sucks major balls. and yes, I am almost exclusivly jungling these days, but unless this gets changed I am just going to drop it, that's how bad the change is. From my favourite role to "I rather play support" This is an absolutely ridiculous comparison. They are not hurting people. They are changing the way the game is working. I don't believe they have malicious intent. High sustain champs have been a huge issue this year, especially top lane. These are often champions that are also very good in the jungle. By reducing how much sustain is necessary in the jungle, I believe they can start hitting the high sustain champs and make the game more dynamic. Top lane is pretty much just a farm fest after a while, which is pretty boring, imo. Sure, it's fun to come into the team fights after 20 minutes of afk farm to hit people hard. The issue is that it requires 20 minutes of afk farming. from what i can tell his post was about top lane not jungle. as a matter of fact it almost seems like he's implying changing the set of jungle heroes will change the set of heroes played top for some reason. regardless, i still don't understand how changes in jungle = changes to top = something that is required.
I meant changes in jungle can lead to changes in top in the future. Top becomes a farm fest in part because of the ridiculously high sustainability of jungle/top champs.
You said the number of viable tops is huge. Look at how many freaking bruisers we have. This has been the issue of the year, just the sheer number of bruisers that have been released and that we have.
You also said the number of viable mids is countable on one hand, which I completely disagree with, but that's not really as pertinent to this particular discussion.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 01 2011 01:38 JackDino wrote:
When a new champ is announced, it takes people only 5 minutes to figure out that the new champ is OP. Then it only takes them 2 matches to realize the champ is shit. Then it takes them 2 weeks to realize without buffs that the champ is not that bad. Than after a full month people realize what the champ actually is supposed to do.
What people "figure out" in 2 matches doesn't mean shit, because 2 matches isn't giving it the time it needs to be figured out.
It takes a long time for people to realize whether something is good or bad. I don't think it takes that long for people to realize that something is boring, un-fun, or poorly designed. I sure as hell didn't need 2 months of games on Soraka to realize that I found her boring to play, regardless of how good she is.
Plus there's still the issue that some of the premises that Riot built up going into designing the remake are straight-up wrong. Unless they can somehow be convinced otherwise, I don't see any iteration of this remake turning out successfully. You can't design the jungle around junglers being able to gank reliably as part of their gold income, and expect it to make sense in tournament matches where nobody dies for the first 15 minutes.
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On December 01 2011 01:18 Requizen wrote:
I know there was a discussion a few pages back, but I almost feel that, until they change the Jungle again, it might just be worth it to run a duo lane. Buff control is important, and gank threat as well, but aside from the god-tier junglers (Skar, Udyr), every other Jungler just gets way too far behind to be useful unless they get a few good ganks, which is pretty hard now.
And I still stand by my 4 jungler, 1 AP mid idea. That way you can have someone leave lane to control the buffs, and it'll be like 4 roamer style! Your Cho'gath is having trouble bot? No problem, swap with Udyr up top, eating creeps and still getting exp the whole way! Maybe even make a stop at mid to gank. So great idea, I would do this if I had 4 friends too bad I have 0.
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On December 01 2011 01:31 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:26 Southlight wrote:
Theoretically shanking jungle difficulty can open up heroes having less sustain, which will remove passive heroes from top lane (ie. the Udyrs); they've already spent months nerfing the sustain heroes that used to be retarded though so I'm not sure if it's absolutely required anymore. ok i still don't get it. why will shanking jungle difficulty make people not go udyr top? secondly, who else but udyr (edit: and riven and gangplank who aren't really sustain crazy until wriggles) is super strong in both roles? i know there's heroes that could feasibly do it and even be viable at it (tryndamere, trundle, irelia, nocturne, warwick, etc) but they seem to be a notch under their counterparts in their foreign roles.
Bearing in mind that I mentioned they'd spent so much time fixing some of the stupid sustains that the # has gone down, but a few months ago, the idea was that a lot of the sustain issues top were caused by heroes that needed sustain to actually jungle. By reducing the difficulty of jungle (ie. the sustain needed) they could then nerf the sustain on the heroes and so you basically level the playing field back to a bunch of heroes that actually damage each other and actually keep the damage on as opposed to having to fight a hero's innate sustain. You can argue that a lot of heroes still have this sort of issue, and Wriggles (key jungle item) is the current culprit. Reduce the jungle difficulty and, hey, maybe they can finally nerf the fucking item and boom top is actually dynamic again instead of having two people rush Wriggles and sit there afk farm for 25 minutes.
... was the idea anyways.
They've really put in a lot of effort to nerf Udyr and WW top lanes in particular, as they've both been absolutely hammered over the past six months I'd come back into the game. Irelia's W obviously needs nerfs. Most of the other top viable heroes have different issues - Riven clearly benefits too greatly from Wriggles, as does a number of heroes. GP is more like Trynd, in that both just have decent sustain but absolutely need it to be any worthwhile in lane, so the balance for them is comparatively ok IMO. etc. etc.
Hence why I said I'm not sure an absolute rebalancing is necessary anymore, but this does certainly allow them to fuck up Wriggles if they so desire, and I as well as many other players (ie. Smash) would really love to see that item go.
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On December 01 2011 01:12 spinesheath wrote:
Riot can't actually remake the jungle and test it internally well enough that it actually turns out satisfying soon after release. They don't have players skilled enough for that. They don't even have the time to test and develop a new metagame internally.
Maybe they should have said that this is going to be a huge mess for at least the next couple of weeks before they released the changes. But nobody should have expected anything else.
I agree there would be a period where things are rough while people get used to it but look at Riots replys to the issue.
They mention the gold and xp values which are something that can very much be tested internally.
The interaction with the entire meta is well beyond there ability to test but a simple thing like after x time the jungler is behind by y gold/xp compared to the other lanes is something that can very much do which gives the about of gold/xp junglers need to be making from ganks.
Im pretty sure if someone runs the numbers they will find that the result is impossible in any form of competitive enviroment outside of solo queue kill fests.
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On December 01 2011 01:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:38 JackDino wrote:
When a new champ is announced, it takes people only 5 minutes to figure out that the new champ is OP. Then it only takes them 2 matches to realize the champ is shit. Then it takes them 2 weeks to realize without buffs that the champ is not that bad. Than after a full month people realize what the champ actually is supposed to do.
What people "figure out" in 2 matches doesn't mean shit, because 2 matches isn't giving it the time it needs to be figured out. It takes a long time for people to realize whether something is good or bad. I don't think it takes that long for people to realize that something is boring, un-fun, or poorly designed. I sure as hell didn't need 2 months of games on Soraka to realize that I found her boring to play, regardless of how good she is. Plus there's still the issue that some of the premises that Riot built up going into designing the remake are straight-up wrong. Unless they can somehow be convinced otherwise, I don't see any iteration of this remake turning out successfully. You can't design the jungle around junglers being able to gank reliably as part of their gold income, and expect it to make sense in tournament matches where nobody dies for the first 15 minutes.
It took people a month to realize how to play irelia properly, you can't tell bad design by just 2 games, boring or unfun you can since bad design isn't exactly an opinion or a feeling you get.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 01 2011 01:42 Southlight wrote:
They've really put in a lot of effort to nerf Udyr and WW top lanes in particular, as they've both been absolutely hammered over the past six months I'd come back into the game. Irelia's W obviously needs nerfs. Most of the other top viable heroes have different issues - Riven clearly benefits too greatly from Wriggles, as does a number of heroes. GP is more like Trynd, in that both just have decent sustain but absolutely need it to be any worthwhile in lane, so the balance for them is comparatively ok IMO. etc. etc.
Riven only benefits too much from Wriggle's insofar as she outscales the vast majority of top laners, and thus it's OK for her to go passive farm mode, and win lategame. If her scaling was such that she was forced to play aggressive, more similar to poorer-scaling lane bullies like Garen or Renekton, it would probably not be as problematic.
On December 01 2011 01:42 Southlight wrote:
Hence why I said I'm not sure an absolute rebalancing is necessary anymore, but this does certainly allow them to fuck up Wriggles if they so desire, and I as well as many other players (ie. Smash) would really love to see that item go.
If they're worried about Wriggle's in lane, then they should just nerf/get rid of the ward. It's the least useful component for junglers, and the most useful component for laners. In terms of the stats alone, it's pretty much on par with (and arguably worse than) 3xDBlade--the real tipping point for laners is the fact that you can get 100% river ward uptime without needing to go back and buy more of them.
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On December 01 2011 00:36 DoXa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 23:48 xDaunt wrote:On November 30 2011 18:09 wussleeQ wrote:wow. rofl. it didn't take long for them to say we fucked up Seriously? They're changing it already? How bush-league is Riot? It's like they don't even test major gameplay overhauls before implementing them. why do some people have to be so negative? they are doing this one day after the patch was applied, which is really fast. be happy that they are listening to the community, which is pretty rare in other games. They are also hiring Gametester, they are probably just understaffed.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that Riot is willing to listen to the community and admit that they screwed up. I've been involved in too many other games where the devs ignored the players to not be appreciative of this. That said, it still doesn't change the fact that Riot stupidly implemented a MAJOR gameplay change without thoroughly testing it and understanding its implications. That is a big problem, not matter how you cut it.
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On December 01 2011 01:39 jtype wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:36 turdburgler wrote:On December 01 2011 01:32 Requizen wrote:
a solo top like jax is just gonna thank you for the dodge procs while he rips his lane opponent a new one during your "gank" but then how do you 'ever' gank? "hi, i have +50 ad, 10% lifesteal and 30 armor, but only against creeps" a solo top like jax is just gonna thank you for the dodge procs while he rips his lane opponent a new one during your "gank" Not any more. Honestly, 10% lifesteal isn't gonna make that much difference in a gank.
it was just a quick out my ass example
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On December 01 2011 01:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I meant changes in jungle can lead to changes in top in the future. Top becomes a farm fest in part because of the ridiculously high sustainability of UDYR.
You said the number of viable tops is huge. Look at how many freaking bruisers we have. This has been the issue of the year, just the sheer number of bruisers that have been released and that we have.
You also said the number of viable mids is countable on one hand, which I completely disagree with, but that's not really as pertinent to this particular discussion.
what is a jungle/top hero? let's look at some of the popular heroes that i've bumped into recently in their respective roles and put them in the alternate role:
renekton jungle
irelia jungle
ryze jungle
rammus top
shaco top
amumu top
regarding riven, gangplank, tryndamere - i think your issue may be with wriggles and lifesteal items not innate champion abilities.
edit: @Southlight - yeah i really think the problem is lifesteal then. but i dunno if that's got anything to do with jungle. even with removal/changes to it people are going to try to find the most sustainy heroes that can stay in lane as long as possible to play with which might actually have the reverse effect and make top less dynamic (morg vs sion top hf hf).
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On December 01 2011 00:46 spinesheath wrote:Fixed. lvl 4 off full clear: irrelevant. It's a jungle remake and as such the routes and timings will change. Sticking to the "lvl 4 from full clear" concept just because you're used to it is likely to hinder a proper development of the new jungle. small monsters: TheOddOne stated that the value of the big monster needs to be significantly higher than the value of the small ones for useful counterjungling, and he is right about that. He specifically complained about the big wraith giving too small of a percentage of the total XP of the camp. Especially now that the camps respawn so quickly, counterjungling can only be useful if you take the majority of the gold/XP without allowing the camp to respawn. Camps respawn fast and are weak now, so the numbers are low. Imagine a couple of 0s behind those small numbers if you have an issue with that. Minigols: ITS A JUNGLE REMAKE. Riot specifically wanted laners to be able to grab camps occasionally, and a shift of value from minigols to other camps CAN be useful for that. Maybe it's not, but Riot shouldn't buff their value just because they used to be high value.
Here's the thing- as much as you want people to go back and say "oh look its a new jungle" they wont. Its crap. You cant have something in the game for 2+ years as a constant then expect people to not want things to line up. I can get that Riot wants there to be new interactions. But you cant just blow up everything for the sake of blowing things up.
On level 4. Yes, it is entirely meaningless in the grand scheme of things. But it was a CONSTANT. It was a pillar of the jungle. Do you think there would be anywhere near the same amount of qq if people could do their same jungle route and end up at 4? Of course not. They might notice that they weren't leveling after that or getting gold as fast, but it wouldn't be SO jarring. And why DOES a remake have to change every single interaction. Why cant we end up at level 4? At least to start off with, this would have been a good constant to carry over because it is COMFORTABLE. You dont want to just pull the rug out on people without giving them something constant. This would have been the easiest thing to do.
Counterjungling optimally involves taking every creep in a camp. Why? So you know when you can go back and jack it again. As much as Riot says they want to keep counterjungling alive, they really dont. Why? Because if you are forced to leave something, pretty much destroys the possibility for repeat attempts. So what they ACTUALLY want is for you to kind of counterjungle, but then not repeat it because then you might hurt the other jungle TOO badly. So I can jack a wraith. Who cares. I blow travel time to do something once that I wont be able to do again for probably 2-3 clears. And either way, the possibility of counterjungling doesnt fix the fact that killing a creep and getting 4 gold feels shitty.
Minigols. Cool. Its a remake. So why make the jungle WORSE. I didnt say they needed to buff them because they used to be high value. I laid out WHY THEY NEEDED TO BE HIGH VALUE IN ORDER TO BE WORTH TAKING. And dont give me bullshit like they shifted value elsewhwere, cuz they didnt. The majority of the exp and gold nerfs of the overall jungle came from the minigols camp.
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Another thing is that the jungler position is supposed to be optional, not mandatory. For that to be the case the jungler position needs to have tradeoffs and non-unique advantages.
Junglers have the advantage of having easy access to the buffs and are constantly hidden by the fog of war. With the current setup they are also unlikely to get comperativly low hp-wise.
In theory running 2-1-2 is fine if the sidelanes are capable of taking/protecting the jungleresources.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 01 2011 01:48 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:41 TheYango wrote:On December 01 2011 01:38 JackDino wrote:
When a new champ is announced, it takes people only 5 minutes to figure out that the new champ is OP. Then it only takes them 2 matches to realize the champ is shit. Then it takes them 2 weeks to realize without buffs that the champ is not that bad. Than after a full month people realize what the champ actually is supposed to do.
What people "figure out" in 2 matches doesn't mean shit, because 2 matches isn't giving it the time it needs to be figured out. It takes a long time for people to realize whether something is good or bad. I don't think it takes that long for people to realize that something is boring, un-fun, or poorly designed. I sure as hell didn't need 2 months of games on Soraka to realize that I found her boring to play, regardless of how good she is. Plus there's still the issue that some of the premises that Riot built up going into designing the remake are straight-up wrong. Unless they can somehow be convinced otherwise, I don't see any iteration of this remake turning out successfully. You can't design the jungle around junglers being able to gank reliably as part of their gold income, and expect it to make sense in tournament matches where nobody dies for the first 15 minutes. It took people a month to realize how to play irelia properly, you can't tell bad design by just 2 games, boring or unfun you can since bad design isn't exactly an opinion or a feeling you get.
OK, then I'll say the new jungle is boring and un-fun for me (and judging by the community response, that opinion is shared by many).
As far as bad design goes, I think it's easy enough to go by the fact that the foundation of the jungle remake was based on incorrect assumptions.
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On December 01 2011 01:50 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I meant changes in jungle can lead to changes in top in the future. Top becomes a farm fest in part because of the ridiculously high sustainability of UDYR.
You said the number of viable tops is huge. Look at how many freaking bruisers we have. This has been the issue of the year, just the sheer number of bruisers that have been released and that we have.
You also said the number of viable mids is countable on one hand, which I completely disagree with, but that's not really as pertinent to this particular discussion. what is a jungle/top hero? let's look at some of the popular heroes that i've bumped into recently in their respective roles and put them in the alternate role: renekton jungle irelia jungle ryze jungle rammus top shaco top amumu top regarding riven, gangplank, tryndamere - i think your issue may be with wriggles and lifesteal items not innate champion abilities. edit: @Southlight - yeah i really think the problem is lifesteal then. but i dunno if that's got anything to do with jungle. even with removal/changes to it people are going to try to find the most sustainy heroes that can stay in lane as long as possible to play with which might actually have the reverse effect and make top less dynamic (morg vs sion top hf hf).
Yes, I think you (and southlight) are right in that wriggle's is a huge part of the issue.
But yeah, people will always look for the most sustainable champs for top. Which, I suppose, can be largely attributed to its location and proximity (or lack thereof) to early game objectives, ie dragon.
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On December 01 2011 01:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Another thing is that the jungler position is supposed to be optional, not mandatory. For that to be the case the jungler position needs to have tradeoffs and non-unique advantages.
Junglers have the advantage of having easy access to the buffs and are constantly hidden by the fog of war. With the current setup they are also unlikely to get comperativly low hp-wise.
In theory running 2-1-2 is fine if the sidelanes are capable of taking/protecting the jungleresources.
Jungling has never really been optional.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 01 2011 01:56 Unentschieden wrote:
Another thing is that the jungler position is supposed to be optional, not mandatory. For that to be the case the jungler position needs to have tradeoffs and non-unique advantages.
Junglers have the advantage of having easy access to the buffs and are constantly hidden by the fog of war. With the current setup they are also unlikely to get comperativly low hp-wise.
In theory running 2-1-2 is fine if the sidelanes are capable of taking/protecting the jungleresources.
Fuck that, I don't want jungling to be optional.
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