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United States47024 Posts
On November 26 2011 14:16 Craton wrote:
the only good change they've made is making baron and dragon immune to shreds, which could've (and should've) been done completely independent of a jungle 0.2 remake.
I would argue that total immunity is a bit extreme. Reduction? Sure. But Armor/MR shred are a large component of building teams that can present an early baron threat, which is a big deal during bans/picks. The fact that option just doesn't exist anymore takes away some interesting options from the ban/picking phase.
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I'm just gonna chill and see how the jungle changes actually play out. They sound awful on paper but the current jungle doesn't seem particularly great to me either, so whatever.
On November 26 2011 08:35 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 08:23 overt wrote:
You know, the jungle change would've been cooler if they made it so that jungling wasn't essential. It's probably too late in LoL's life cycle to do that but I'd kind of prefer it if running a jungler wasn't required.
Also, that would help fix a lot of the passivity problems that Riot has with the current state of LoL. What passivity problem? At this point I've stopped believing there's a passivity problem. You know why? Because half the people argue that lanes play too safe, and half the people argue that ganks don't happen, and these 2 issues are 100% antithetical to each other. If you have lanes where people can go aggressive, that's only possible when you reduce the gank threat. If you want ganks to happen, it has to come by making lanes more dangerous and gankable. When you've got people on both sides saying passivity is a problem, that probably means passivity isn't a problem. At this point, it's just a buzzword that Riot uses to get people onboard the bandwagon.
Man yango you are just being silly.
1) The balance of public opinion has nothing to do with what's factually correct, don't use that as an argument. Because something is a buzzword means it's not worth talking about?
2) you say passivity is consequence of kills not happening, same thing for our purposes. There is no meaningful difference between a good solution that will solve passivity and a good solution that will make kills happen. So basically, this is just a way of dodging the cognitive dissonance you get when trying to segue from the above quoted post to this:
What is the problem? Farm-y lanes, farm-y jungles, and kills not happening. The last point has been the biggest one of note, where action simply does not happen throughout the early-midgame, particularly in competitive games. The main thing to recognize that its a problem across the board.
wow that sounds a lot like passivity, and like you believe there's a passivity problem
3) I have no idea whether these jungle changes are a push in the right direction or not, but there are some things that are very clearly contributing to the problem, extremely basic things, that it seems like riot is slowly changing. Health pots are finally getting nerfed, most of the healers have gotten nerfed, the punishment for hitting your opponent in lane is going to be smaller to some degree, and i'm hoping lifesteal and spellvamp are going to get fucked down the line. Really basic stuff that in lane I think has a much bigger degree of impact than even flash. Maybe we should see where the game is after things like this get sorted out before we putting everything else under the axe. Not that I'm not in favor of big changes, and much faster than riot does them (so so long before we got this far), but in stages, and with stops to verify and examine the results after each step.
On November 26 2011 11:32 phyvo wrote:Look at baseball; so much downtime that the casters have to fill 90% of the time with random statistics yet for some reason it's a more popular sport than the far more active Ultimate Frisbee.
Promulgation in culture isn't all a matter of merit. You get all kinds of weird shit like cricket and baseball getting a foothold and then just climbing it's own momentum until it becomes very hard to dislodge. Personally I don't want a game I play to have those qualities, whether a popular game like baseball has them or not.
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On November 26 2011 14:12 LancerJ wrote:Guinsoo posted some commentary about the jungle remake on the official forums. It's pretty much a response to Stonewall's vid plus some new info. Full text in spoiler. + Show Spoiler +Hello all,
I don't intend for this to become anything like a blog but I want to address a few points I've been seeing on the forum, and expand a bit on what the Patch Preview showed/explained. I've been involved with the jungle adjustments since they got started about 6 months ago so I'd like to post some more detailed information about the changes and their intended effects.
The small camps are where the biggest changes have been made. As the patch preview noted, they all respawn faster and they all have a sigil, but it's just a one-shot heal that heals for an increasing flat amount based on health missing. It also doesn't scale with game length, although we are considering that on the backburner (unneeded for primary set of adjustments). The primary purpose of this heal is to support low-level summoners, who generally will remain at the lowest amount of health. The reward per respawn rate has been slightly increased; if we reduced the rewards of the small camps by the amount we reduced their respawn timer by, junglers would fall significantly behind due to the increased run times. The initial spawn timers for camps have not been increased; they remain at 1:40 and 1:55.
Some things you can expect from the new jungle:
1. The time to 4 is slightly longer for most (likely all) champions. I have seen a lot of threads suggesting that the jungle has become more OP, and while I can't say that's not the case, one consequence of the shorter spawn times on small camps is that a full clear will not quite get you to 4. However, a full clear plus any small camp will get you to 4, so you have a lot of flexibility in terms of where you start and end, and if you want to gank at 4, you can set your route up to end at any small camp to gank where you want.
2. The jungle is a little less survival limited, and a little more time limited. In the current jungle on live, you have to be able to sustain yourself at least until 4, because the jungle is hard, and that's the primary inhibition. Only once a champion meets this primary criteria do others come into consideration like clear time, gank ability, transition to endgame, etc. In the new jungle, it's a little more about ability to clear the camps and ability to optimize your time. As the patch preview noted, the fact that the small camps are generally constantly respawning means you are choosing between farming your jungle, ganking, going back to shop, or counterjungling/map control, and this was a primary goal: inject more choice, unpredictability, and decision-making into jungling. However just because you're not farming your jungle constantly doesn't mean it's a waste, there's no reason that while you're ganking top bottom can't send one person to quick clear Golems. They will be back up before the jungler gets back there. Same with Wraiths, mid can clear them quickly between waves. With good coordination a team can get more farm out of the jungle, and more ganks from their jungler.
2b. By shortening the respawn timers, the jungler must choose between multiple strong actions. Currently with long gaps between jungle respawns, it creates situations with less choice than we'd like. With more things that must be tended to, the junglers job is made more difficult, while the physical jungle is made a little easier. This also ties into the predictability of ganks.
3. Ganks are a little more unpredictable. #1 and #2 (among other factors) create a scenario where the jungler has more health at all times, and the jungle is basically ready to clear at any time, so if there is a good opportunity to gank he might be more likely to take it. On the test realm we have seen more level 2 and 3 ganks than we initially expected. Ideally this should be lane-mandated and flexible: for example if a lane is being pushed hard, it should be easier for the jungler to get the gank without setting his team too far behind.
4. Counterjungling is probably a little stronger. We pushed a lot of the small camp rewards out of the small monsters and into the big ones. Taking the healing sigil and 95% of a camp's reward while leaving a monster to hold the respawn is quite strong. Additionally, Ancient Golem and Lizard Elder camps give a little more exp reward and is a little more central to a jungler's fast clear to 4, so we may see more tension and fights around these enemy camps early in the game. Still, feedback has been consistent that counterjungling feels less bad to play against because of the faster respawning camps, so that sounds like a win-win to me. I note that I say probably because we adjusted this ratio down about 2 weeks ago due to feedback that counterjungling was still too strong. We do have a feature ready where counterjungled camps respawn 100% slower (X%), but in testing counterjungling proved strong enough that we did not move forward with it. I suspect this is related to the increased time scarcity for junglers.
5. Nashor and Dragon are now immune to shreds. No more 15 second Nashors. Yay! Dragon might be a little undertuned health-wise, and we're watching it. He's tougher 1v1 or 1v2 but probably a little easier for a full group, especially later in the game.
6. I don't think the jungle has been oversimplified for experienced players. It is a little easier for new players, and they will struggle to some degree in the jungle anyway (unless prepared), but with newer players the game in general is very unpredictable. Have you ever watched a game full of new players? Lanes can go untended for long periods of time, farm is very low, kills are usually very high. The jungler should learn quickly that other things must be done to be successful; plus who doesn't want to get involved in some fights? For level 30 summoners, the easier jungle is offset by more frequent encounters with monsters, an increased need to gank due to health potion and minion changes, increased incentive to counterjungle, etc. There are a lot of moving levers within the jungle and a harsh incoming-damage-based barrier to entry is not necessarily the only way to make the jungle interesting, varied, and have sufficient balancing mechanics.
7. Similar to above, while I think there might be more champions it's possible to jungle with, I don't think there will be many more good junglers. As with any class, there are the better options and there are the worse options, to varying degree. The biggest 'class' of jungler that probably got weaker the sustain junglers; almost all of which are good in lane, and still, having high/full health when you gank at a less predictable time is always good. We did initially see some weird stuff like jungle Annie, but it kind of fizzled out because all she really has going for her is the vicious 6 gank. She's too gold-reliant to jungle.
8. I do see these changes actually making jungling a little less required. I think currently there are some interesting things you can do in a 2v1 lane, but the disadvantage of not having a jungler vs theirs (when he has full farm on higher-yield monsters, plus the only team with repeated available ganks) is too great. In other words I think teams always have to take a jungler right now because giving the other team the only jungler is too strong. I can see one team running a 2-1-2 comp or a 1-1-2 with a roaming support that can jungle (Alistar, Maokai), or on the other end of the fence a team with a jungler and a roamer that can counterjungle. This may not happen, and isn't really a primary focus of the changes, but I'd be curious and excited if it did.
Overall the set of jungle changes have been the result of a lot of iteration and have been testing in a pretty stable state for some time now. This post was pretty impromptu so it really doesn't reflect the full attention we have given to these set of changes, but I was hoping to shed a little more detail into the changes than the patch preview and a lot more information as to the reasoning behind the changes, and what sorts of behavior and action we've seen in testing. I might have a few additional thoughts that I will edit in.
Guinsoo EDIT: Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 11:52 r.Evo wrote:
My #1 issue with Riot right now: Your game is moving too fucking fast. If I, as a loyal nerd for almost a year, am gone for two weeks and have trouble keeping up with all the changes (masteries, new champ, jungle change, dodge change) I can't even imagine how casual players who login once every week are feeling.
Please, Riot, slow down the way you're "evolving" (hint: You're not even evolving it. You're throwing random mutations out and see what get's bitched at the most) this game.
I agree. This current period is reminiscent of the last time there were major changes made to the game through minions, monsters, items, and base stats of champions. Quoting from the linked rant: Show nested quote +Band aid, sweeping adjustments and overhauls to a game that is over a year old is ludicrous and will only create more problems in the future.
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Why do you feel the need to change the game so irrevocably every 2 months, do you feel as if you aren't doing your job unless you completely change the game, or do you just get bored? The fact that LoL gets patched like it's in alpha testing is one of its most obnoxious features. As cliche as it may sound, it's tempting to look at Dota 2 with envy when there's a stable balancing philosophy and basic game features like replays and spectator mode.
On the other hand, if they spaced the changes out for a period of months then the game would never ever get the opportunity to settle - I think there either way has its downside. I'm sure that if they did space out the changes there'd be a decent number of well written posts about how the game is always changing and never given time to just let lie.
Guinsoo's post, for me, makes a lot of sense. It also shows that hey, the people at Riot actually have some idea what their doing and thinks pretty carefully about changes to their game.
I don't mean to jump down anyone's throat (and I don't think I am). It just bothers me that whenever the maker of a game (Blizzard, Riot) announces a change and the community's response is 'HEY what about OBVIOUS PROBLEM X, you guys clearly didn't think of THAT and are all fucking IDIOTS' when in fact they've probably already considered it and figured out how to avoid it. (Not saying they're always right just that they aren't stupid).
On November 26 2011 14:16 Craton wrote:
lol...
counterjungling is stronger because its less punishing to the enemy jungler
real logic
the only good change they've made is making baron and dragon immune to shreds, which could've (and should've) been done completely independent of a jungle 0.2 remake.
From Guinsoo:
Counterjungling is probably a little stronger.
counterjungling feels less bad to play against
Not contradictory statements. Counter-jungling can BE stronger but FEEL less obnoxious.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 26 2011 15:34 UniversalSnip wrote:Man yango you are just being silly. 1) The balance of public opinion has nothing to do with what's factually correct, don't use that as an argument. Because something is a buzzword means it's not worth talking about? 2) you say passivity is consequence of kills not happening, same thing for our purposes. There is no meaningful difference between a good solution that will solve passivity and a good solution that will make kills happen. So basically, this is just a way of dodging the cognitive dissonance you get when trying to segue from the above quoted post to this: Show nested quote +What is the problem? Farm-y lanes, farm-y jungles, and kills not happening. The last point has been the biggest one of note, where action simply does not happen throughout the early-midgame, particularly in competitive games. The main thing to recognize that its a problem across the board. wow that sounds a lot like passivity, and like you believe there's a passivity problem
"Passivity" implies the problem is with the *way* people are playing the game-that there are things that are encouraging people to play too passively. I don't think that's the case at all. I just think that there's a problem with how punishing mistakes are. None of this "problem" has anything to do with player attitudes (which is what the word "passivity" implies about the issue)--if people played the exact same way they do now, but mistakes were punished more harshly, there would be more kills/deaths in a game.
The problem with the term is that the implications of the word "passivity" suggest solutions that don't actually get anything done. An example of this is the red buff change, which will cause laners to play more aggressively because they're safer, but consequently make junglers play less aggressively because their ganks are less likely to be successful. You've tackled "passivity", but it's done nothing to address the root of the problem.
I don't feel this is unintuitive. Is it really surprising to people that when it's hard to die, it's hard to kill people?
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Just to comment on the changes, I'm looking forward to seeing how they play out, and how things change, don't want to make too many assumptions before testing em out. Stonewall008 comes off as a little elitist with his whole, Noobs shouldn't jungle crap!. Who cares if noobs can jungle, what I want to know is if jungling is going to be fun for me still, as it's one of my favorite role.
I do really wish that big changes/patches didn't seem like they were coming so often though.. this game takes quite a bit of research to get back in the know on things if your gone for even such a short time as 3-4 weeks. However, they do put forth the effort to change things at least as far as balance is concerned really fast. I don't know what the healthy medium/middle ground is though, let things sit for 3 months before changing, or change every tuesday? Surely there must be something in-between that could work?
As long as their champion bi-weekly release model stays, I can't see it happening though. And why would they change, I can't blame them when they have the numbers that they do, people like the way this game is being run/made, and are having fun with it. I have tons of time put into it myself, and shit, I still can like some of the champions they release, I love Fizz's giant shark spell, looks awesome :D. However as they increase in champions, the barrier to entry gets more and more daunting for new players looking to play competitive. You need quite a lot of the champions and how the hell are you supposed to justify 10$ if they nerf it the next week? I don't really want to call it grinding, because I have fun playing, but if your behind right now and recently joined and you want to play I feel pretty bad for you. I would like them to make more bundles for 30$ and what not, maybe even buy 2 get 1 free deals(where you have to buy 2 6300, to get a 6300, etc no way to cheat the system)? and to increase free week champs to 15. (This is from someone only missing some of the champs, like 10-15 that I dont care about)
I think in my perfect world(just for me), balance patches would be limited to once a month or every 6 weeks. And only emergency changes, new champions(hopefully slows down at some point, but whatever), and skins would be released in-between. There is still so much unexplored about this game and i feel like maybe some of the best strategies and champs haven't been found cause people are too busy switching too the newly buffed or newly released hero than figuring out how good of a counter some unused champion is.
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Realistically, the only thing that matters in the remake is A) can a jungle still maintain a 1-2 level deficit behind solo lanes, and B) is the farm comparable or even exceeding current levels. Other than that, the changes REALLY dont matter.
Both those things we do not know atm, so arguing is pretty pointless.
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On November 26 2011 15:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Realistically, the only thing that matters in the remake is A) can a jungle still maintain a 1-2 level deficit behind solo lanes, and B) is the farm comparable or even exceeding current levels. Other than that, the changes REALLY dont matter.
Both those things we do not know atm, so arguing is pretty pointless.
Hey, HEY! keep your logic and realistic expectations of changes to yourself.
But yeah, can't really do much but wait and plan out super top secret trist jungle build till the release hits.
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anyone watching Reginald's AP carry marathon? he's running through all the AP carries like Chaox did a while back.
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Yeah, now he's tilting after getting Scy on his team 2 games in a row lol
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On November 26 2011 11:52 r.Evo wrote:b) If camps spawn faster but are of less value it does not make afk-farming stronger. Yes, you can roll your jungle up and down, but you can also put pressure where you really want it a lot more since it hurts WAY less to NOT farm a certain camp. Farm golems, gank top. Farm wraiths, gank mid. Farm wraiths, farm golems, gank top. Gank mid, farm wraiths. See where I'm getting at?
Both of those points can be simplified to two major facts:
Fact 1: Jungling now requires more choices than before.
Fact 2: Individual choices the jungler makes have now less impact than before.
-More junglers to chose from (since a "weak" jungler is now a "good" one it makes more sense to pick him compared to a "strong" one if the teamcomps call for it)
-More small choices to make
-Less predictable routes
Whether AFK-farming is stronger or not depends on the value of the small camps, how fast you can clear them and how fast they respawn, as well as the relative value of ganking post-remake. We lack many of the hard numbers at the moment to know for certain what the outcome is, but there are a few points of data which indicate that AFK-farming will be strong.
1. The gold value of the small camps. In the video they averaged to about 47g per camp. That value means you'll have to clear 4 camps post-remake to gain the same amount of gold pre-remake.
2. Riot's intention to avoid "clear" jungles and remove the downtime that was previously used as the opportune timing for ganks.
3. Riot's statements regarding leveling and red buff. It supposedly takes longer/more effort to level in the jungle, meaning that level 2/4 gank timings are probably weaker than before, in addition to the red buff nerf.
Without relying on Stonewall we can already see that there are some strong factors which favor AFK-farming in the remake. We don't know for sure exactly how many small camps are available for clearing in a 100 second timeframe, but if it's more than 4 then AFK-farming is strong and if it's exactly 4 the opportunity cost of ganking is actually higher than before simply because there's no point in time where ganking doesn't have a gold/exp cost for the jungler.
It may be that leaving all three small camps up now is most costly than it will be in the remake, but that's only looking at the worst-case scenario for current jungling. Perhaps that worst-case scenario outweighs everything else that favors farming, but it's hard to claim with certainty with so many factors pushing the other way that this is the case.
On November 26 2011 15:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Realistically, the only thing that matters in the remake is A) can a jungle still maintain a 1-2 level deficit behind solo lanes, and B) is the farm comparable or even exceeding current levels. Other than that, the changes REALLY dont matter.
Both those things we do not know atm, so arguing is pretty pointless.
There are a ton of other considerations that also matter in the remake. For example:
- Can a jungler maintain that same level deficit while also ganking/counter-jungling?
- Is the opportunity cost of forsaking farm to gank worth the gold cost?
- How easily can lanes kill Wraiths/Wolves/Golems? At what point in the game is it possible for an AP carry mid with blue buff to clear a wave and then clear a jungle camp without missing the next creep wave? Are Wraiths/Wolves spawning fast enough to allow them to do this every single wave? What about bottom lane and golems?
- Are there junglers that can still clear faster than camps spawn? What is their effect upon the game?
- How much does the gold/exp value of creep camps increase over time? Is it enough that a ganking jungler who fails repeatedly can catch back up by farming?
That's just off the top of my head. Each and every one of those points has a dramatic effect on jungling, its viability, and its place in LoL. You're correct that people may be going too bananas when there's little they can do but wait, but the two points you listed are far from the only ones that matter.
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On November 26 2011 15:38 Treadmill wrote:
On the other hand, if they spaced the changes out for a period of months then the game would never ever get the opportunity to settle - I think there either way has its downside. I'm sure that if they did space out the changes there'd be a decent number of well written posts about how the game is always changing and never given time to just let lie.
I think you misunderstand. That's exactly what the rant I linked to was arguing but you seem to be disagreeing with your reply.
For example, the alternative to dumping mastery changes (which have had a large effect on the jungle) and jungle monster changes back-to-back is to not implement changes of that scale at all. Balancing around a constant framework instead of rolling out completely fresh systems every few months keeps unintended consequences to a minimum. There's simply too many variables involved to make good predictions about the state of the game when everything in the game is open to rebalancing or outright removal.
Riot is clearly doing some things right considering their overall success. One of their bigger issues, though, is the damage that their champ release and balance philosophy has on accessibility for newer players. I have 4 friends who have started playing LoL in the last 2 months (2 of them fairly casual) and they'll never be able keep up with changes in the meta dictated by patch notes and design overhauls for the reasons BlueBird described.
On November 26 2011 15:58 BlueBird. wrote:
However as they increase in champions, the barrier to entry gets more and more daunting for new players looking to play competitive. You need quite a lot of the champions and how the hell are you supposed to justify 10$ if they nerf it the next week? I don't really want to call it grinding, because I have fun playing, but if your behind right now and recently joined and you want to play I feel pretty bad for you.
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On November 26 2011 16:34 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 15:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Realistically, the only thing that matters in the remake is A) can a jungle still maintain a 1-2 level deficit behind solo lanes, and B) is the farm comparable or even exceeding current levels. Other than that, the changes REALLY dont matter.
Both those things we do not know atm, so arguing is pretty pointless. There are a ton of other considerations that also matter in the remake. For example: - Can a jungler maintain that same level deficit while also ganking/counter-jungling?
- Is the opportunity cost of forsaking farm to gank worth the gold cost?
- How easily can lanes kill Wraiths/Wolves/Golems? At what point in the game is it possible for an AP carry mid with blue buff to clear a wave and then clear a jungle camp without missing the next creep wave? Are Wraiths/Wolves spawning fast enough to allow them to do this every single wave? What about bottom lane and golems?
- Are there junglers that can still clear faster than camps spawn? What is their effect upon the game?
- How much does the gold/exp value of creep camps increase over time? Is it enough that a ganking jungler who fails repeatedly can catch back up by farming?
That's just off the top of my head. Each and every one of those points has a dramatic effect on jungling, its viability, and its place in LoL. You're correct that people may be going too bananas when there's little they can do but wait, but the two points you listed are far from the only ones that matter.
See, the two points I listed encapsulate the ones you gave. Everyone is making this too complicated. All it really comes down to is whether or not neojungle allows for comparable farm and level gains given what a jungle's job is. Does it really matter that shit respawns quicker, or golems are different sizes, or mid can steal my shit without a problem now? Not really, so long as I can still gank a lane that needs a gank, buy the items I am used to getting when I am used to getting them, and not be horribly underleveled.
Essentially, the jungle remake could be entirely meaningless if, given the responsibilities of a jungle, you can still get the same farm and level patterns out of the new jungle. And we dont know if you can yet, so there really isnt a point bitching about it.
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On November 26 2011 12:01 Requizen wrote:
Everyone seems angry, so I'd like to voice my opinions.
*el throat clear*
I like boobs, but I think Sona's are really overdoing it though. I mean, like, Cait's are big, but they're not in-your-face big like Sona's are. Also, I think Kat is hot for the fact that she wears leather. Tight leather on a fit chick is hotttttt.
I feel like this is an important point. My criteria for picking which skin to buy is generally "which skin looks the classiest/least slutty". It's bothered me for a long time. Just sayin...
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On November 26 2011 16:43 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 16:34 Seuss wrote:On November 26 2011 15:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Realistically, the only thing that matters in the remake is A) can a jungle still maintain a 1-2 level deficit behind solo lanes, and B) is the farm comparable or even exceeding current levels. Other than that, the changes REALLY dont matter.
Both those things we do not know atm, so arguing is pretty pointless. There are a ton of other considerations that also matter in the remake. For example: - Can a jungler maintain that same level deficit while also ganking/counter-jungling?
- Is the opportunity cost of forsaking farm to gank worth the gold cost?
- How easily can lanes kill Wraiths/Wolves/Golems? At what point in the game is it possible for an AP carry mid with blue buff to clear a wave and then clear a jungle camp without missing the next creep wave? Are Wraiths/Wolves spawning fast enough to allow them to do this every single wave? What about bottom lane and golems?
- Are there junglers that can still clear faster than camps spawn? What is their effect upon the game?
- How much does the gold/exp value of creep camps increase over time? Is it enough that a ganking jungler who fails repeatedly can catch back up by farming?
That's just off the top of my head. Each and every one of those points has a dramatic effect on jungling, its viability, and its place in LoL. You're correct that people may be going too bananas when there's little they can do but wait, but the two points you listed are far from the only ones that matter. See, the two points I listed encapsulate the ones you gave. Everyone is making this too complicated. All it really comes down to is whether or not neojungle allows for comparable farm and level gains given what a jungle's job is. Does it really matter that shit respawns quicker, or golems are different sizes, or mid can steal my shit without a problem now? Not really, so long as I can still gank a lane that needs a gank, buy the items I am used to getting when I am used to getting them, and not be horribly underleveled. Essentially, the jungle remake could be entirely meaningless if, given the responsibilities of a jungle, you can still get the same farm and level patterns out of the new jungle. And we dont know if you can yet, so there really isnt a point bitching about it.
You had to qualify your points by expanding them to:
- Level at approximately the same rate.
- Farm approximately the same amount of gold.
- Still be able to gank as effectively as before.
- Handle all the other responsibilities of a jungler.
Maybe some of us were making this too complicated, but you were making this way too simple.
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Sigh new Ashe skin has high heels... frost archer does not need that wtf
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On November 26 2011 17:08 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 16:43 Two_DoWn wrote:On November 26 2011 16:34 Seuss wrote:On November 26 2011 15:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Realistically, the only thing that matters in the remake is A) can a jungle still maintain a 1-2 level deficit behind solo lanes, and B) is the farm comparable or even exceeding current levels. Other than that, the changes REALLY dont matter.
Both those things we do not know atm, so arguing is pretty pointless. There are a ton of other considerations that also matter in the remake. For example: - Can a jungler maintain that same level deficit while also ganking/counter-jungling?
- Is the opportunity cost of forsaking farm to gank worth the gold cost?
- How easily can lanes kill Wraiths/Wolves/Golems? At what point in the game is it possible for an AP carry mid with blue buff to clear a wave and then clear a jungle camp without missing the next creep wave? Are Wraiths/Wolves spawning fast enough to allow them to do this every single wave? What about bottom lane and golems?
- Are there junglers that can still clear faster than camps spawn? What is their effect upon the game?
- How much does the gold/exp value of creep camps increase over time? Is it enough that a ganking jungler who fails repeatedly can catch back up by farming?
That's just off the top of my head. Each and every one of those points has a dramatic effect on jungling, its viability, and its place in LoL. You're correct that people may be going too bananas when there's little they can do but wait, but the two points you listed are far from the only ones that matter. See, the two points I listed encapsulate the ones you gave. Everyone is making this too complicated. All it really comes down to is whether or not neojungle allows for comparable farm and level gains given what a jungle's job is. Does it really matter that shit respawns quicker, or golems are different sizes, or mid can steal my shit without a problem now? Not really, so long as I can still gank a lane that needs a gank, buy the items I am used to getting when I am used to getting them, and not be horribly underleveled. Essentially, the jungle remake could be entirely meaningless if, given the responsibilities of a jungle, you can still get the same farm and level patterns out of the new jungle. And we dont know if you can yet, so there really isnt a point bitching about it. You had to qualify your points by expanding them to: - Level at approximately the same rate.
- Farm approximately the same amount of gold.
- Still be able to gank as effectively as before.
- Handle all the other responsibilities of a jungler.
Maybe some of us were making this too complicated, but you were making this way too simple.
Well, thats because the remake doesnt actually change the last 2 parts. Ganks are made effective by the player and the character, not by what you killed right before you ganked. The only thing that actually effects this aspect is the red buff slow change, but we dont even have a number on this yet.
And handling all the other responsibilities just means can you ward and maintain jungle control. Again, this isnt changed by the jungle remake.
So ya, it just comes back to can you get the same gold and same exp while throwing out a gank every now and again, which realistically fits into the "can you still level" portion. It REALLY isnt that complicated. The world isnt going to end.
And if they did fuck up the levels/gold, then enough people are gonna bitch and they are gonna buff exp or gold gains.
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And saint trolling the shit out of loco on vent and in game.
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Saint jungling annie on his stream, much better than jungling veigar.
Saint carried the shit out of loco that game lol.
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On November 26 2011 17:28 JackDino wrote:
Saint jungling annie on his stream, much better than jungling veigar.
Saint carried the shit out of loco that game lol.
Not over yet. Loco and his teammate dc cuz of internet, other team gets baron and mid inhib, loco reconnects. Still game on.
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Keep in mind that the jungle changes need to consider the mastery changes as well. Jungleganks are in general stronger now, especially if laners are at lower HP due to potnerfs. In turn messing up a gank now actually has consequences.
Another issue is that the jungler role is by far the most limited right now. It´s even worse than support (where progress has been made actually).
Passivity isn´t about kills per minute. Thouse will always be less than Dota/Hon since there are no champions designed to "kill or die" and IF there are plenty kills the game actually ends (relativly) quickly.
It´s about the silent truce of laners to just hit creeps instead of each other. That is less likely now since damage "sticks" more as the best harrassnegation (pots) got nerfed.
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EPT
