On November 03 2011 03:12 GeneralStan wrote: About Mana Burn: Aside form the dozen or so manaless champs, was there some reason Riot didn't want to put it into LoL?
It's a binary mechanic, and not just on mana-less champs (mana-less champs just make the binary nature more apparent). Either the skill does nothing because a target will die before they conceivably run out of mana (AP carries with large mana pools/blue buff, mana-less champs, squishy champions that die faster than they lose mana), or it's tantamount to a permanent silence once the target reaches no mana. It would be a nightmare to balance its comparative worthlessness against the former type of target vs. its enormous strength vs. the latter.
I think Nerubian Assassin from Dota, has this mana burn ability. Burn some mana, and do some damage. Doesn't do a huge load of impact because of the way mana is designed in dota (or well it's been years since i played)
On November 03 2011 03:18 crate wrote: When you use a skill that "resets the autoattack timer" what it actually means is what Yango said: it just puts your character back into a neutral state (well, also issues a command to attack your current target if you have one). Said skill doesn't actually count as an autoattack for the purpose of your autoattack cooldown, isn't sped up by attackspeed, etc. Those skills apply on-hits and some (all? never bothered testing) of them can crit (but I think they have different rules for how crits boost damage than regular autoattacks, again never tested), but they're not an autoattack, and it doesn't set your autoattack cooldown to 0. So if you have low attack speed it's quite possible that after a skill like Nasus or Trundle or Garen Q your autoattack hasn't come back off cooldown so you can't autoattack right away. If you get more attack speed this delay will decrease, until you get enough so that your autoattack cools down faster than your Q animation and it'll look seamless.
If you want to test go play Garen against Nasus, get Withered, and go try to auto -> Q -> auto with Garen. If you time it "right" you'll auto -> Q -> stand there till your autoattack is off cooldown -> auto.
This is what I think as well. Its just a question of your attack speed.
Umm Garen has a lower aspd than either Wukong or Nasus. Theorycraft less, actually TEST THINGS more. But keep arguing against it, I guess I'll just enjoy being the only one instawinning solotops ta-ta~
Unless Wukong, Nasus, and Garen all have the same animation length on their Q's this is irrelevant. Go test it with an attack speed of something like 0.2 on Garen (get Withered), that'll clear it up.
I'm not sure this is right. Because if it were the case,wouldn't you be able to cancel immediately into an autoattack afterward on anybody if you Qed first without having autoattacked, since your autoattack would already be off cooldown?
On November 03 2011 03:18 crate wrote: When you use a skill that "resets the autoattack timer" what it actually means is what Yango said: it just puts your character back into a neutral state (well, also issues a command to attack your current target if you have one). Said skill doesn't actually count as an autoattack for the purpose of your autoattack cooldown, isn't sped up by attackspeed, etc. Those skills apply on-hits and some (all? never bothered testing) of them can crit (but I think they have different rules for how crits boost damage than regular autoattacks, again never tested), but they're not an autoattack, and it doesn't set your autoattack cooldown to 0. So if you have low attack speed it's quite possible that after a skill like Nasus or Trundle or Garen Q your autoattack hasn't come back off cooldown so you can't autoattack right away. If you get more attack speed this delay will decrease, until you get enough so that your autoattack cools down faster than your Q animation and it'll look seamless.
If you want to test go play Garen against Nasus, get Withered, and go try to auto -> Q -> auto with Garen. If you time it "right" you'll auto -> Q -> stand there till your autoattack is off cooldown -> auto.
This is what I think as well. Its just a question of your attack speed.
Umm Garen has a lower aspd than either Wukong or Nasus. Theorycraft less, actually TEST THINGS more. But keep arguing against it, I guess I'll just enjoy being the only one instawinning solotops ta-ta~
Unless Wukong, Nasus, and Garen all have the same animation length on their Q's this is irrelevant. Go test it with an attack speed of something like 0.2 on Garen (get Withered), that'll clear it up.
I'm not sure this is right. Because if it were the case,wouldn't you be able to cancel immediately into an autoattack afterward on anybody if you Qed first without having autoattacked, since your autoattack would already be off cooldown?
You should be able to Q -> autoattack on everyone, I think. There's no way to speed up the animation of your Q though, and some (like Trundle Q) have really long animations after they actually hit.
On November 03 2011 03:18 crate wrote: When you use a skill that "resets the autoattack timer" what it actually means is what Yango said: it just puts your character back into a neutral state (well, also issues a command to attack your current target if you have one). Said skill doesn't actually count as an autoattack for the purpose of your autoattack cooldown, isn't sped up by attackspeed, etc. Those skills apply on-hits and some (all? never bothered testing) of them can crit (but I think they have different rules for how crits boost damage than regular autoattacks, again never tested), but they're not an autoattack, and it doesn't set your autoattack cooldown to 0. So if you have low attack speed it's quite possible that after a skill like Nasus or Trundle or Garen Q your autoattack hasn't come back off cooldown so you can't autoattack right away. If you get more attack speed this delay will decrease, until you get enough so that your autoattack cools down faster than your Q animation and it'll look seamless.
If you want to test go play Garen against Nasus, get Withered, and go try to auto -> Q -> auto with Garen. If you time it "right" you'll auto -> Q -> stand there till your autoattack is off cooldown -> auto.
This is what I think as well. Its just a question of your attack speed.
Umm Garen has a lower aspd than either Wukong or Nasus. Theorycraft less, actually TEST THINGS more. But keep arguing against it, I guess I'll just enjoy being the only one instawinning solotops ta-ta~
Unless Wukong, Nasus, and Garen all have the same animation length on their Q's this is irrelevant. Go test it with an attack speed of something like 0.2 on Garen (get Withered), that'll clear it up.
Calculate from the start of the first attack to the end of the third attack then. Rofl. You have the videos.
On November 03 2011 03:18 crate wrote: When you use a skill that "resets the autoattack timer" what it actually means is what Yango said: it just puts your character back into a neutral state (well, also issues a command to attack your current target if you have one). Said skill doesn't actually count as an autoattack for the purpose of your autoattack cooldown, isn't sped up by attackspeed, etc. Those skills apply on-hits and some (all? never bothered testing) of them can crit (but I think they have different rules for how crits boost damage than regular autoattacks, again never tested), but they're not an autoattack, and it doesn't set your autoattack cooldown to 0. So if you have low attack speed it's quite possible that after a skill like Nasus or Trundle or Garen Q your autoattack hasn't come back off cooldown so you can't autoattack right away. If you get more attack speed this delay will decrease, until you get enough so that your autoattack cools down faster than your Q animation and it'll look seamless.
If you want to test go play Garen against Nasus, get Withered, and go try to auto -> Q -> auto with Garen. If you time it "right" you'll auto -> Q -> stand there till your autoattack is off cooldown -> auto.
This is what I think as well. Its just a question of your attack speed.
Umm Garen has a lower aspd than either Wukong or Nasus. Theorycraft less, actually TEST THINGS more. But keep arguing against it, I guess I'll just enjoy being the only one instawinning solotops ta-ta~
Unless Wukong, Nasus, and Garen all have the same animation length on their Q's this is irrelevant. Go test it with an attack speed of something like 0.2 on Garen (get Withered), that'll clear it up.
I'm not sure this is right. Because if it were the case,wouldn't you be able to cancel immediately into an autoattack afterward on anybody if you Qed first without having autoattacked, since your autoattack would already be off cooldown?
You should be able to Q -> autoattack on everyone, I think. There's no way to speed up the animation of your Q though, and some (like Trundle Q) have really long animations after they actually hit.
My thought would be that Garen's q is an absurdly long animation prior to damage- he pauses, does his flip thing, then hits, but absolutely no post animation, so it has more time to clear his auto and attack immediately after.
All of this still doesn't explain the behavior that Shikyo is talking about where if you right-click immediately after Garen's Q hits, you can cancel into the next autoattack faster than if you just let him attack.
On November 03 2011 03:32 Two_DoWn wrote: My thought would be that Garen's q is an absurdly long animation- he pauses, does his flip thing, then hits, so it has more time to clear his auto.
My thought is that you didn't watch my videos and notice that in the Garen video, the first attack starts a bit after 6 seconds and ends maybe halfway through 7. second, so it's a lil less than 1.5s total, whereas in the wukong video the first attack starts a bit after 7 seconds and doesn't finish until almost the very end of the 9 second mark. Nice theorycraft, now I wish you tried it before you tell us your amazing thoughts.
On November 03 2011 03:32 Two_DoWn wrote: My thought would be that Garen's q is an absurdly long animation prior to damage- he pauses, does his flip thing, then hits, but absolutely no post animation, so it has more time to clear his auto and attack immediately after.
You call it "post animation" when Nasus stands still in his standby animation for like a second before attacking again?
On November 03 2011 03:33 TheYango wrote: All of this still doesn't explain the behavior that Shikyo is talking about where if you right-click immediately after Garen's Q hits, you can cancel into the next autoattack faster than if you just let him attack.
14:27 Southlight imo the reason is that his q has low pre-attack and no post-attack 14:27 Southlight which is unique 14:27 Southlight and possibly a design oversight or flaw 14:28 Southlight other heroes are known to NOT benefit from attack speed 14:28 Southlight because the post attack fucks it up 14:30 ecael so like someone said, test with a withered garen and test other things w/ aspd I guess 14:30 Southlight im pretty sure it'll get fucked up with wither 14:30 Southlight as his pre-attack animation gets fucked up 14:30 Southlight so the question is whether he can initiate attack animation and still have it fire 14:30 Southlight or if the distance gained cancels the attack 14:31 Southlight because iirc like 14:31 Southlight if the target gets too far away 14:31 Southlight the attack gets canceled 14:31 Southlight even after pre-attack animation 14:31 ecael for the 2nd aa? 14:31 ecael yeah 14:31 Southlight but unlike other heroes 14:31 Southlight he'll ENTER pre-attack animation 14:31 Southlight and that's the big diff
Can we please use established terminology for this?
Attack Animation: The actions that any unit must go through in order to release a physical attack, consisting of a damage point and damage backswing.
Damage Point - The animation from when the unit begins to attack and goes through the command. For ranged heroes, this is when the projectile is released, whereas for melee heroes the damage is dealt at the damage point.
Damage Backswing - The animation that finalizes the attack animation, its importance is nothing more than cosmetic. This is the portion of the attack that can and should be cancelled by inputting another command immediately after the damage point has passed.
So what Uta is saying is that Garen's Q is a modified autoattack, where the overall attack animation is fast, and the damage point comes toward the end of the attack animation?
Nah that's not it, his base attack time is over 1.5s and he gets one off way faster. His Q just doesn't have the autoattack delay IF you right click after it. It acts normal if you don't right click. And I think that's a bug.
Btw as we're on topic, with this you can do the brushrape combo auto-Q-auto-E and it's deadlier than you've ever thought Garen could be from the brush.
lol, I dunno about established terminology being that, or anything, as Turkey and I always call stuff by pre, post, and turning. Like Trist has a great pre but her post turns off a lot of people... Twitch actually has great pre but his post is a bit laggy (trist-like) while his turning speed is hideous.
x_x
Edit: I feel Cait's OP from a base perspective because she has no turning time nearly no pre and nearly no post. She just fires from any direction and keep moving.
On November 03 2011 03:18 crate wrote: When you use a skill that "resets the autoattack timer" what it actually means is what Yango said: it just puts your character back into a neutral state (well, also issues a command to attack your current target if you have one). Said skill doesn't actually count as an autoattack for the purpose of your autoattack cooldown, isn't sped up by attackspeed, etc. Those skills apply on-hits and some (all? never bothered testing) of them can crit (but I think they have different rules for how crits boost damage than regular autoattacks, again never tested), but they're not an autoattack, and it doesn't set your autoattack cooldown to 0. So if you have low attack speed it's quite possible that after a skill like Nasus or Trundle or Garen Q your autoattack hasn't come back off cooldown so you can't autoattack right away. If you get more attack speed this delay will decrease, until you get enough so that your autoattack cools down faster than your Q animation and it'll look seamless.
If you want to test go play Garen against Nasus, get Withered, and go try to auto -> Q -> auto with Garen. If you time it "right" you'll auto -> Q -> stand there till your autoattack is off cooldown -> auto.
This is what I think as well. Its just a question of your attack speed.
Umm Garen has a lower aspd than either Wukong or Nasus. Theorycraft less, actually TEST THINGS more. But keep arguing against it, I guess I'll just enjoy being the only one instawinning solotops ta-ta~
Until some one shows up to lane with Dyrus' vs Garen (max armour) rune page.
On November 03 2011 03:18 crate wrote: When you use a skill that "resets the autoattack timer" what it actually means is what Yango said: it just puts your character back into a neutral state (well, also issues a command to attack your current target if you have one). Said skill doesn't actually count as an autoattack for the purpose of your autoattack cooldown, isn't sped up by attackspeed, etc. Those skills apply on-hits and some (all? never bothered testing) of them can crit (but I think they have different rules for how crits boost damage than regular autoattacks, again never tested), but they're not an autoattack, and it doesn't set your autoattack cooldown to 0. So if you have low attack speed it's quite possible that after a skill like Nasus or Trundle or Garen Q your autoattack hasn't come back off cooldown so you can't autoattack right away. If you get more attack speed this delay will decrease, until you get enough so that your autoattack cools down faster than your Q animation and it'll look seamless.
If you want to test go play Garen against Nasus, get Withered, and go try to auto -> Q -> auto with Garen. If you time it "right" you'll auto -> Q -> stand there till your autoattack is off cooldown -> auto.
This is what I think as well. Its just a question of your attack speed.
Umm Garen has a lower aspd than either Wukong or Nasus. Theorycraft less, actually TEST THINGS more. But keep arguing against it, I guess I'll just enjoy being the only one instawinning solotops ta-ta~
Until some one shows up to lane with Dyrus' vs Garen (max armour) rune page.
Hm. Rammus has 21 base armor which is the highest in the game. With full armor runes and 21 def masteries and starting with cloth armor, he has 89 armor and 4% dmg reduction.
Might actually be viable vs Garen =P Don't really even need Rammus.
On November 03 2011 03:45 Shikyo wrote: Nah that's not it, his base attack time is over 1.5s and he gets one off way faster. His Q just doesn't have the autoattack delay IF you right click after it. It acts normal if you don't right click. And I think that's a bug.
Btw as we're on topic, with this you can do the brushrape combo auto-Q-auto-E and it's deadlier than you've ever thought Garen could be from the brush.
I've had it done to me. Nothing makes me rage harder than fighting Garen top. He just feels sooooooooo gay, like what do I even do? lol
I've heard Swain counters him, and I've tried it a couple times. But if I missed my Nevermove (which isn't hard when he comes flying out of the brush at a million miles an hour) then it's gg.
Yeah I'll do some testing of my own later on this autoattack thing (probably in like 7 hours or so, since I don't get home for another 5). I'll see if I can get my friend to help me out so I can see how really low attack speed works out (since I own Nasus we can at least see what Wither does to Jax's Empower).
Hard to see what's going on just from the videos Shikyo posted. Clearly Garen has less delay between his Q damage and his next autoattack than Wukong/Nasus but there's not enough information to have good insight into why that's the case.
On November 03 2011 03:45 Shikyo wrote: Nah that's not it, his base attack time is over 1.5s and he gets one off way faster. His Q just doesn't have the autoattack delay IF you right click after it. It acts normal if you don't right click. And I think that's a bug.
Btw as we're on topic, with this you can do the brushrape combo auto-Q-auto-E and it's deadlier than you've ever thought Garen could be from the brush.
I've had it done to me. Nothing makes me rage harder than fighting Garen top. He just feels sooooooooo gay, like what do I even do? lol
I've heard Swain counters him, and I've tried it a couple times. But if I missed my Nevermove (which isn't hard when he comes flying out of the brush at a million miles an hour) then it's gg.
Laserbird him when he comes at you. He's forced to either spin it off, continue running at you (you can kite at this point, or hit a nevermove on a slowed target), or turn around and break the laser.
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EPT
