EPTIMO if anything what you posted is an argument *for* health transfer healing instead of what Vlad has.
[Patch 1.0.0.128: Shyvana] General Discussion - Page 31
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
IMO if anything what you posted is an argument *for* health transfer healing instead of what Vlad has. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On November 02 2011 22:54 phyvo wrote: Moonbear, I disagree. Your old post you linked to says that vlad's HP costs are a simple gate mechanic that uses HP, with HP going in -> HP going out to become damage. I see no reason why a support HP transfer skill on a kit couldn't also simply use the HP to gate it, and unlike vlad spell vamp wouldn't be an issue since a support hero doesn't do much damage to begin with and healing isn't even affected by spell vamp. IMO if anything what you posted is an argument *for* health transfer healing instead of what Vlad has. Apologies. Perhaps I should have made it clearer. HP costed spells have an innate defensive component attached to them to compensate for the fct you have to hurt yourself in order to achieve an effect. In Vlad's case, he uses a sink mechanism to compensate for his hp costs and heals himself while he hurts himself. Mordekaiser has small hp costs but gains a shield that buffers damage for more than the hp cost of the spell generally was. When Olaf uses E, he can chain it with W to mitigate some of the hp cost. It also powers up his passive, so it has a clear purpose to why he hurts himself. HP Gating on a support would also require some form of mitigation or effect to the support champion themselves in order to justify using hp as a resource rather than just using mana, energy or purely cooldowns. Therefore, even if hp costs for a heal seem a little counter intuitive, it can always be justified if it is fun to use and has a clear purpose. (The fun>antifun rule.) So the question I posed was not whether hp costed heals were bad, but if you could have one with a clear purpose and a kit that fitted around it without feeling tacky or something that could be duplicated with other resource systems and do essentially the same thing with less antifun. Also, Riot tries to make unique champions with their own distinct feel so it can't just be Vlad 2.0 or something like that. On November 02 2011 23:02 obesechicken13 wrote: Shyvana's dad was one brave human. Also Caitlyn Nerf NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!! Her dad was the dragon. Her mom was a farmgirl. Also, Dyrus with solotop Olaf Guide. Real. | ||
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RogerX
New Zealand3180 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
It would be a very powerful support spell but can be countered by AoEing the two leashed targets. | ||
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enzymezero
United States65 Posts
Saw guardsman bob's stream - he only ever had one positive k/d ratio and her abilities didn't seem that powerful. Aside from the AOE fire thing, her powers seem lackluster. | ||
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shinarit
Hungary900 Posts
 I really dont know much about design, but when i read your (MonnBear's) writings i always feel a little bit smarter than before. I was thinking about this because im a huge healer-nerd, i always played Soraka before the patch that made her much less of a healer, and i was thinking about a good healer without the attached sustain mechanism that makes Riot go crazy. If you dont heal from air (or mana, but soraka has infinite of that) but you give your health to someone else than its not really sustain, because the damage stays with your team, its just transfered. Its like a tank skill to take damage from others, but delayed.Thats why i think this kind of "healing" could be acceptable for an anti-sustain design. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On November 02 2011 23:05 MoonBear wrote: Apologies. Perhaps I should have made it clearer. HP costed spells have an innate defensive component attached to them to compensate for the fct you have to hurt yourself in order to achieve an effect. In Vlad's case, he uses a sink mechanism to compensate for his hp costs and heals himself while he hurts himself. Mordekaiser has small hp costs but gains a shield that buffers damage for more than the hp cost of the spell generally was. When Olaf uses E, he can chain it with W to mitigate some of the hp cost. It also powers up his passive, so it has a clear purpose to why he hurts himself. HP Gating on a support would also require some form of mitigation or effect to the support champion themselves in order to justify using hp as a resource rather than just using mana, energy or purely cooldowns. Therefore, even if hp costs for a heal seem a little counter intuitive, it can always be justified if it is fun to use and has a clear purpose. (The fun>antifun rule.) So the question I posed was not whether hp costed heals were bad, but if you could have one with a clear purpose and a kit that fitted around it without feeling tacky or something that could be duplicated with other resource systems and do essentially the same thing with less antifun. Also, Riot tries to make unique champions with their own distinct feel so it can't just be Vlad 2.0 or something like that. I don't know if I'm the right person to address Riot's thinking about a health cost heal. A lot of game design seems entirely arbitrary to me. How important should mechanics be? When is it good to have a late game/early game char and when isn't it? How much should a carry carry? If hurting yourself is anti fun on a heal then why isn't running out of mana anti fun? And while a HP cost heal might be a bit harder to make it feel "right" than a mana cost one, why bother assuming its impossible? All these questions seem very subjective to me, much like art (in fact exactly like art). Now there are concepts which are obviously bad (like art that is obviously bad), good game art pretending to be bad game art, and bad game art pretending to be good game art and even child game art that isn't pretending to be anything. Simply defining things as "fun" or "unfun" is way too subjective especially for any one conversation between any two individuals. But IDK, I guess I'll try my hand with the simplest thing I could think of. It's a skill in a vacuum but I'm not a game designer and I'm not that interested in discussing things that could exist but probably never will. Transfer: Costs X HP + A% of current HP (per bonus HP? lololol maybe too confusing). Gives Y HP + B% of current HP to target and reduces healing/regeneration effects on the caster for P seconds. Q cooldown. In my opinion the CD gate wouldn't be so important as the healing reduction and HP gates. This design would promote spamming heal during a team fight to save a target but subsequent heals would be less effective so that if it's low CD it can sustain in a fashion but be more clutch at the start. You wouldn't automatically kill yourself while trying to save a target either since HP cost goes down too. Reducing healing/regen effects on yourself, while not something I imagine Riot liking to do, would probably be necessary to promote Riot's philosophy as healing as a clutch rather than as endless sustain. I suppose you could instead increase the healing cost and have a HP regen passive that halves or disappears but that would be easier to build around with items for the purpose of sustain abuse. IDK it's an idea like any other. You could probably find problems with it but I'm 100% certain that it's really not that hard. As Morello once said about %HP true damage there is a number between 1% and 30% which is balanced. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On November 02 2011 23:05 MoonBear wrote: Apologies. Perhaps I should have made it clearer. HP costed spells have an innate defensive component attached to them to compensate for the fct you have to hurt yourself in order to achieve an effect. In Vlad's case, he uses a sink mechanism to compensate for his hp costs and heals himself while he hurts himself. Mordekaiser has small hp costs but gains a shield that buffers damage for more than the hp cost of the spell generally was. When Olaf uses E, he can chain it with W to mitigate some of the hp cost. It also powers up his passive, so it has a clear purpose to why he hurts himself. HP Gating on a support would also require some form of mitigation or effect to the support champion themselves in order to justify using hp as a resource rather than just using mana, energy or purely cooldowns. Therefore, even if hp costs for a heal seem a little counter intuitive, it can always be justified if it is fun to use and has a clear purpose. (The fun>antifun rule.) So the question I posed was not whether hp costed heals were bad, but if you could have one with a clear purpose and a kit that fitted around it without feeling tacky or something that could be duplicated with other resource systems and do essentially the same thing with less antifun. Also, Riot tries to make unique champions with their own distinct feel so it can't just be Vlad 2.0 or something like that. I think it's very possible to construct a support champion around a healing spell with a health cost. There are a plethora of angles to attack the design from. Does the hero have a method of self-healing? Is it passive? Is it their ultimate? Do their abilities outside of their heal also cost health, or will it use mana or another resource? Just off the top of my head, I might start a design with a passive that heals the champion for some percent of damage being done to nearby allied champions. This has the dual effect of being potentially very potent in team fights but not necessarily as strong in lane. It's not without it's problems, but it's a place to start. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 02 2011 23:23 enzymezero wrote: I watched a few streams with people playing Shyvana. I wasn't really that impressed with her. Saw guardsman bob's stream - he only ever had one positive k/d ratio and her abilities didn't seem that powerful. Aside from the AOE fire thing, her powers seem lackluster. She's very strong, but she's obviously supposed to be tanky dps. You can't really 1v1 her and hope to get through her health if she's building right, and in teamfights she's not the one doing the damage, but is running around disrupting and doing constant dps and blocking skillshots. She's probably a pretty good solo top/bruiser pick. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On November 02 2011 23:02 obesechicken13 wrote: Shyvana's dad was one brave human. Also Caitlyn Nerf NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!! Come on man, you should know that in every fantasy world it's the defenseless human chick who gets screwed. Literally. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 02 2011 23:23 enzymezero wrote: I watched a few streams with people playing Shyvana. I wasn't really that impressed with her. Saw guardsman bob's stream - he only ever had one positive k/d ratio and her abilities didn't seem that powerful. Aside from the AOE fire thing, her powers seem lackluster. That's because guardsman bob is a godawful player. Did you watch the saintvicious stream when he went like 15-1 every game with her? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 03 2011 00:40 Shikyo wrote: That's because guardsman bob is a godawful player. Did you watch the saintvicious stream when he went like 15-1 every game with her? First, that was in normals, and second, he lost more games than he won on Shyvana. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 03 2011 00:42 TheYango wrote: First, that was in normals, and second, he lost more games than he won on Shyvana. Pffft he's still OP ! Does anyone know if Q resets attack timer the way Garens does or is it just standard? | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 03 2011 00:44 Shikyo wrote: Pffft he's still OP ! Does anyone know if Q resets attack timer the way Garens does or is it just standard? there isn't an auto-attack modifier that doesn't anymore. except MAYBE TF's PaC, but PaC is really weird, it plays by it's own rules. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 03 2011 00:46 Mogwai wrote: there isn't an auto-attack modifier that doesn't anymore. except MAYBE TF's PaC, but PaC is really weird, it plays by it's own rules. No that's not what I mean, Garen's is the only one with which you can do auto -> Q -> auto instantly after. All others have delay before the auto after the Q according to my tests. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On November 02 2011 23:23 enzymezero wrote: I watched a few streams with people playing Shyvana. I wasn't really that impressed with her. She seems decent from what I've seen of her. She's not OP broken but doesn't seem bad either. Like, she's pretty tanky with just Wriggle's/Wit's and does good AoE damage considering how tanky she is. On November 02 2011 23:23 enzymezero wrote: Saw guardsman bob's stream - he only ever had one positive k/d ratio and her abilities didn't seem that powerful. Aside from the AOE fire thing, her powers seem lackluster. That's because it isn't Xin Zhao or Warwick. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On November 03 2011 00:47 Shikyo wrote: No that's not what I mean, Garen's is the only one with which you can do auto -> Q -> auto instantly after. All others have delay before the auto after the Q according to my tests. Nasus? | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Um he has delay too? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
What do you mean by delay? The vast majority of single on-hits do reset the autoattack timer. They might not feel immediate because many of the on-hits have different animations from a normal autoattack, and the modified on-hit has a worse animation (in the case of Garen, Decisive Strike's animation feels smoother than the normal one), but they do reset the timer. To my knowledge, Udyr and TF are the only ones that don't. I'm not 100% sure if Xin's does or doesn't. | ||
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