|
Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. - Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th |
On November 02 2011 04:32 FieryBalrog wrote:
DotA is if anything even easier mechanically. With far fewer skillshots, far fewer actives to use per character... I mean if placing a skillshot is easy, DotA's "left click on guy" must be for "nubs". Yeah, there are a couple dozen or so champs more complicated than that and some glitches. Apart from that...
DotA has quite a lot of skillshots/placed aoe's with delayed effects/abilities that aren't exactly intuitive. Mechanically I don't think any argument can be made that LoL is more difficult(DotA has more involved attack/spell animation cancelling, denies to compliment last hits, regular skillshots along with those that are actually untargetted and rely on your timing and range awareness to land, etc). Also there are pet champs, meepo, orbwalkers... just a ton more mechanics in general to be proficient at.
Whether that makes DotA harder or not w/e I don't care to argue it, it's so subjective.
|
Someone was asking Saint for someone from CDE to come talk with slasher and DJwheat about the issue and Regi was like...okay bro I go. Not like Regi was trying hard to get out there to shout more shit in the fan. The show was looking for CDE, not the other way.
|
On November 02 2011 04:12 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:01 red_b wrote:
You make it sound like it's so easy to push people out of lanes in LoL and that's just not true. The instant I gather that someone is better than me I start playing very defensively. I don't wait for them to kill me. I just play back, lose a tiny bit of xp and farm but I don't die and I stay even enough in levels that I am not going to get dove. There, I have literally just stopped you from doing anything to me except outfarming me and outleveling me by single percentage points. I can stack gp/5 and get back in it EZPZ, or wait until you go to another lane to go farm.
But in the end you still lose because the enemy team takes Dragon, your buffs, and Baron while you are busy farming back up and can't fight as effectively because gold/10 items are ineffective for early/midgame fights. When the enemy team wards your jungle and takes all of it, at least one person is shut down HARD. A jungler has no safe place to fall back to if he gets pushed out of the jungle.
What spine said.
Also: this red guy suggests getting GP5 when he is behind, why is anyone still arguing with him? It's pretty obvious he does not understand this game on a level that lets him deny other people anything.
|
So fun when people like red_b talks about high skill in connection with moba games. I tell a secret: there is no such thing as high skill champion. These games are mechanically so easy, your average Sunday Quake/BW/whatever game that takes mechanical skill gamer will laugh his ass off. You control one (max 2) unit with a couple of abilities. No matter how complex they are, its just impossible for it to be high skill. What makes these games "hard" and allows skill differentiation is game sense, map sense, decision making.
|
United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2011 04:29 Phunkapotamus wrote:
Don't you feel slow playing Jarman Mogwai? Don't you wish you could wavedash all over the place? What if you could L-cancel your autoattack? Imagine if such mechanics existed in LoL: you'd find that technical skill would become a much much much bigger factor in the outcome of a game than it does now. A lot of TL-folk would skyrocket in ELO because of our technical abilities. A lot of nubs with inflated ELO would drop like a rock. People with poor strategy, but high technical ability would be promoted.
Mechanics are only as good as the gameplay they create, and I say this coming from the standpoint of someone who argued adamantly against MBS when it was first implemented in SC2. Mechanics that only exist for the sake of adding a technical barrier do not create gameplay. I'm going to use that as an example for the sort of mechanical demand I look for in a game.
In the case of MBS in a game like Starcraft, the fact that you had to LOOK at your base in Brood War to macro meant that you had to make the decision of whether to allocate your actions toward unit production or army management. In particular, it meant that with a finite number of actions available to you, you effectively had to manage your attention as a resource--how much do I allocate toward my bases, and how much toward my army?
This sort of mechanical demand creates gameplay; and it's a spectrum of gameplay that expands as one becomes better at the game. As your effective ability to perform actions increased, you had more options available to you based on how much you could accomplish. It's not a binary wall where "if I can accomplish X, and my opponent can't, I win, but if we both can or we both can't, it does nothing", which is what many BAD mechanical tasks in games end up being.
|
On November 02 2011 04:22 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:16 ArC_man wrote:
BW was not built for "baddies" and "scrubs", 12 years ago Blizzard wasn't catering to casuals (I don't even think that term even existed). You're completely wrong. 12 years ago "baddies and scrubs" is ALL that existed in RTS. Progaming did not exist, most of the Blizzard designers were sub-BGH level players who had no idea how the game would be played. They were just brilliant game designers. People seriously completely miss how most people who are not on TL talk about Starcraft. To them, it was a cool game where you killed aliens or played as some aliens and built photon cannon gardens and never went on Battle.net. Listen to most gaming podcasts that ever mention BW, to them going on Battle.net was hardcore. And that's among the enthusiast press.
There was no notion of "baddie" and "scrub" when I started playing the game 10 years ago, these are terms that have been created recently. Starcraft was a game made for gamers, LoL is a game made for casuals.
|
seems like shaco got hit with a nerf stick if anything :/
only seems to have added 5 seconds to my jungle route but still this sucks
|
On November 02 2011 05:05 ArC_man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:22 FieryBalrog wrote:On November 02 2011 04:16 ArC_man wrote:
BW was not built for "baddies" and "scrubs", 12 years ago Blizzard wasn't catering to casuals (I don't even think that term even existed). You're completely wrong. 12 years ago "baddies and scrubs" is ALL that existed in RTS. Progaming did not exist, most of the Blizzard designers were sub-BGH level players who had no idea how the game would be played. They were just brilliant game designers. People seriously completely miss how most people who are not on TL talk about Starcraft. To them, it was a cool game where you killed aliens or played as some aliens and built photon cannon gardens and never went on Battle.net. Listen to most gaming podcasts that ever mention BW, to them going on Battle.net was hardcore. And that's among the enthusiast press. There was no notion of "baddie" and "scrub" when I started playing the game 10 years ago, these are terms that have been created recently. Starcraft was a game made for gamers, LoL is a game made for casuals.
That sounds like bullshit to me. Starcraft was made for people who sit in a base with 10 workers, build a gateway and 4 photon cannons and end with 3 carriers and a dark archon. There wasn't anyone else to make it for.
|
On November 02 2011 05:01 daemir wrote:
Someone was asking Saint for someone from CDE to come talk with slasher and DJwheat about the issue and Regi was like...okay bro I go. Not like Regi was trying hard to get out there to shout more shit in the fan. The show was looking for CDE, not the other way.
Yea I left a comment on Solomid telling Regi to go on LO3, dunno if he read it or not. Seems like other people want him to go on as well. I also tweeted LO3 so they can cover this topic (made a twitter account just for this purpose >_>). Hopefully they can actually make it happen.
|
On November 02 2011 05:11 ArC_man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 05:01 daemir wrote:
Someone was asking Saint for someone from CDE to come talk with slasher and DJwheat about the issue and Regi was like...okay bro I go. Not like Regi was trying hard to get out there to shout more shit in the fan. The show was looking for CDE, not the other way. Yea I left a comment on Solomid telling Regi to go on LO3, dunno if he read it or not. Seems like other people want him to go on as well. I also tweeted LO3 so they can cover this topic (made a twitter account just for this purpose >_>). Hopefully they can actually make it happen.
i wish they could have Dan go in place of regi or something, regi is NOT articulate at all while dan is, maybe even SV, anyone but regi lol
|
think SV went to bed, or should have at least, he was so damn tired, but stream so many viewers he couldn't go bed l0l
and yea, rather have Dan than regi on it.
|
On November 02 2011 05:01 daemir wrote:
Someone was asking Saint for someone from CDE to come talk with slasher and DJwheat about the issue and Regi was like...okay bro I go. Not like Regi was trying hard to get out there to shout more shit in the fan. The show was looking for CDE, not the other way.
Regi has also released two videos about it and spammed the official forums with threads about it until he got banned. He should've just said, "no thanks," to the show and let the situation die.
WCG isn't going to change their mind and say, "oh shit, you're right we messed up and you guys get to go to Korea now!" I don't see what the point is in him still talking about this drama and agreeing to go on a show about it too.
|
On November 02 2011 05:01 Shiv. wrote:
What spine said.
Also: this red guy suggests getting GP5 when he is behind, why is anyone still arguing with him? It's pretty obvious he does not understand this game on a level that lets him deny other people anything.
we're talking about being behind a very small amount early. not down 3 kills.
if you've already given up large amounts of ground then obviously you should not be looking for a long term solution.
I don't wait 15 minutes into the game to decide Im behind. I can judge that pretty fast
k and thanks and bye.
|
On November 02 2011 05:19 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 05:01 daemir wrote:
Someone was asking Saint for someone from CDE to come talk with slasher and DJwheat about the issue and Regi was like...okay bro I go. Not like Regi was trying hard to get out there to shout more shit in the fan. The show was looking for CDE, not the other way. Regi has also released two videos about it and spammed the official forums with threads about it until he got banned. He should've just said, "no thanks," to the show and let the situation die. WCG isn't going to change their mind and say, "oh shit, you're right we messed up and you guys get to go to Korea now!" I don't see what the point is in him still talking about this drama and agreeing to go on a show about it too.
Oh didn't know that, was probably sleeping while most of this drama happened, dang. I did hear SV talking about people getting forum bans by the bucket.
|
On November 02 2011 05:19 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 05:01 daemir wrote:
Someone was asking Saint for someone from CDE to come talk with slasher and DJwheat about the issue and Regi was like...okay bro I go. Not like Regi was trying hard to get out there to shout more shit in the fan. The show was looking for CDE, not the other way. Regi has also released two videos about it and spammed the official forums with threads about it until he got banned. He should've just said, "no thanks," to the show and let the situation die. WCG isn't going to change their mind and say, "oh shit, you're right we messed up and you guys get to go to Korea now!" I don't see what the point is in him still talking about this drama and agreeing to go on a show about it too.
He got screwed, he feels screwed, if someone asks him to talk about it why would he say no. What is riot /wcg gonna do about it, not let him go to korea? Is it bad for riot/wcg? If it is, whose fault is it?
|
On November 02 2011 05:19 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 05:01 daemir wrote:
Someone was asking Saint for someone from CDE to come talk with slasher and DJwheat about the issue and Regi was like...okay bro I go. Not like Regi was trying hard to get out there to shout more shit in the fan. The show was looking for CDE, not the other way. Regi has also released two videos about it and spammed the official forums with threads about it until he got banned. He should've just said, "no thanks," to the show and let the situation die. WCG isn't going to change their mind and say, "oh shit, you're right we messed up and you guys get to go to Korea now!" I don't see what the point is in him still talking about this drama and agreeing to go on a show about it too.
He's just really really pissed off and needs to vent. Think about it man. He had a free trip to Korea already won after 2 epic wins. I was watching on SV's stream and CDE were so happy. This situation must be so crushing for them. I wouldn't be able to let this shit go either, especially not without any satisfactory compensation or apology.
|
On November 02 2011 05:10 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 05:05 ArC_man wrote:On November 02 2011 04:22 FieryBalrog wrote:On November 02 2011 04:16 ArC_man wrote:
BW was not built for "baddies" and "scrubs", 12 years ago Blizzard wasn't catering to casuals (I don't even think that term even existed). You're completely wrong. 12 years ago "baddies and scrubs" is ALL that existed in RTS. Progaming did not exist, most of the Blizzard designers were sub-BGH level players who had no idea how the game would be played. They were just brilliant game designers. People seriously completely miss how most people who are not on TL talk about Starcraft. To them, it was a cool game where you killed aliens or played as some aliens and built photon cannon gardens and never went on Battle.net. Listen to most gaming podcasts that ever mention BW, to them going on Battle.net was hardcore. And that's among the enthusiast press. There was no notion of "baddie" and "scrub" when I started playing the game 10 years ago, these are terms that have been created recently. Starcraft was a game made for gamers, LoL is a game made for casuals. That sounds like bullshit to me. Starcraft was made for people who sit in a base with 10 workers, build a gateway and 4 photon cannons and end with 3 carriers and a dark archon. There wasn't anyone else to make it for.
I don't think you're understanding my argument at all. You do agree that the notion of "gamer" has changed throughout the years right? There are far more degrees of "gamer" nowadays than back then and it is of my personal belief that SC was made with the generic gamer (someone you wouldn't call to be "casual" nowadays) in mind. LoL is a game completely made for casual gamers. Obviously the people sucked ass at BW when it was first released, even the most hardcore gamer playing the game would be bad on day 1. Of course when it comes down to it neither you nor I can say with certainty who the actual target audience of BW was, Blizzard just wanted to get as many sales as possible.
On November 02 2011 05:19 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 05:01 daemir wrote:
Someone was asking Saint for someone from CDE to come talk with slasher and DJwheat about the issue and Regi was like...okay bro I go. Not like Regi was trying hard to get out there to shout more shit in the fan. The show was looking for CDE, not the other way. Regi has also released two videos about it and spammed the official forums with threads about it until he got banned. He should've just said, "no thanks," to the show and let the situation die. WCG isn't going to change their mind and say, "oh shit, you're right we messed up and you guys get to go to Korea now!" I don't see what the point is in him still talking about this drama and agreeing to go on a show about it too.
I think he should go on the show just in terms of principle. The chances of WCG changing their mind is essentially 0, but the show will give more exposure to LoL and his team. Also it sends a message to future tournament organizers to not fuck around with their rules or run the risk of bad publicity. It's a step in the direction of making LoL tournaments more professional (which is what we want right?).
|
On November 02 2011 04:32 FieryBalrog wrote:
DotA is if anything even easier mechanically. With far fewer skillshots, far fewer actives to use per character... I mean if placing a skillshot is easy, DotA's "left click on guy" must be for "nubs". Yeah, there are a couple dozen or so champs more complicated than that and some glitches. Apart from that...
Comments like this are hilarious and just show how little people understand dota.
Also, outlaning someone is surprisingly hard if they are competent. Simply put, it's easier in LoL to stay in lane and do well against a better player. No denies, mana+health regen items just make it easier.
On November 02 2011 05:02 shinarit wrote:
So fun when people like red_b talks about high skill in connection with moba games. I tell a secret: there is no such thing as high skill champion. These games are mechanically so easy, your average Sunday Quake/BW/whatever game that takes mechanical skill gamer will laugh his ass off. You control one (max 2) unit with a couple of abilities. No matter how complex they are, its just impossible for it to be high skill. What makes these games "hard" and allows skill differentiation is game sense, map sense, decision making.
Yes, ofc if you comparing a "MOBA" to BW or Quake or something that it's a lot easier mechanically. But, just because that's the case it doesn't mean there's no individual skill differential between LoL and Dota.
|
On November 02 2011 04:45 red_b wrote:
spinesheath I'm especially disappointed in you. I have laned against you with a really, really bad matchup and you still couldn't make me leave the lane because I didn't give you the opportunities. And I will freely admit you are a better player than I am.
I'm a HORRIBLE solo laner, I SUCK at lasthitting, and I play at a CONSTANT 200-500 ping.
I win my games through map awareness and good decision making mid/lategame.
Oh and I rarely press advantages in lane. Mainly because you can only really do that safely with a good support and jungle who can track/pressure the enemy jungle. Enemy junglers seem to be really quick at focusing on my lane when I make it clear that I am going to crush my enemy.
Advantages in LoL are not pressed in lane. That's what the jungle and river are for.
|
On November 02 2011 05:05 ArC_man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:22 FieryBalrog wrote:On November 02 2011 04:16 ArC_man wrote:
BW was not built for "baddies" and "scrubs", 12 years ago Blizzard wasn't catering to casuals (I don't even think that term even existed). You're completely wrong. 12 years ago "baddies and scrubs" is ALL that existed in RTS. Progaming did not exist, most of the Blizzard designers were sub-BGH level players who had no idea how the game would be played. They were just brilliant game designers. People seriously completely miss how most people who are not on TL talk about Starcraft. To them, it was a cool game where you killed aliens or played as some aliens and built photon cannon gardens and never went on Battle.net. Listen to most gaming podcasts that ever mention BW, to them going on Battle.net was hardcore. And that's among the enthusiast press. There was no notion of "baddie" and "scrub" when I started playing the game 10 years ago, these are terms that have been created recently. Starcraft was a game made for gamers, LoL is a game made for casuals.
This entire genre of games makes no fucking sense to people who only play games casually. Starcraft was made with totally new players in mind. The first few missions are basically "make a building! make some marines! you win!" Someone who hasn't played an RTS before jumping into LoL will get killed over and over again while people yell at them.
The only thing that's changed is that nerds like us have become irrationally possessive of our precious little hobby, so we feel like we need to belittle everyone who isn't a born pro.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
