EPT[Patch 1.0.0.128: Shyvana] General Discussion - Page 13
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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. - Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th | ||
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craaaaack
479 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:43 TheYango wrote: In the scheme of competitive play, "hypercarry" in DotA is grossly exaggerated. Hypercarries in DotA tend to be the equivalent of LoL bruisers with even greater kill/tank potential. Hypercarries exist in DotA because there's a much higher exp cap such that it's not uncommon to see hypercarries at lvl 25 while everyone else is hovering around lvl 20 or lower. Not only that, but the fact that you lose gold on death means that the gap between the winning team/carry and the losing team/carry is exaggerated with every kill. Then you have to consider the attributes system. In LoL, with very few exceptions, buying an offensive item gives you only offensive stats and getting defensive items gives you defensive stats. For DotA, when you get attributes, 2/3 of the attributes not only increase your tanking abilities, but also your offensive capabilities when playing carries or semi-carries. Str gives hp and health regen and gives primary Str heroes damage; Agi gives armor and attack speed and gives primary Agi heroes damage. This results in essentially a ton of "double dipping" when it comes to items that give attributes, which further exaggerates gold/item leads. Imagine if every champion except supports had Jax or Vlad-like passives. That's DotA. I'm not saying DotA or LoL is superior. Rather, the two games are fundamentally different and they both emphasize different areas of the game. | ||
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taLbuk
Madagascar1879 Posts
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:36 MoonBear wrote: Ok, two things here. Firstly, you suggest that LoL doesn't have high skill mechanics and that it caters to bad players. Orianna is a pretty high skill ceiling champion and was a recent release too. I hardly see that as pandering to bad players. Also, you suggest all skilled mechanics are unfun, which is again incorrect. Morgana ult is requires a lot of skill to use right, but is hardly unfun. You again must go back to the definition of what is considered unfun or not. I think you're using too broad of a definition and failing to fundamentally understand what it means to design well. proving my point, thanks. Orianna is high skill like farmville is highskill. just because she isn't a herpaderp champion like soraka doesn't mean she is highskill if we look across mobas. high skill techniques that are worth pulling off are so effective that they are unfun. take for example strafe jumping. you literally cannot win a quake duel against anyone decent if you don't do it unless you are a super duper high level player trolling some barely competent casual who plays a few games on the weekend. Your second point on denying in lane I will come to below. and no, I am not failing to understand what it means to design well. It is your mistake that you think what riot is doing is good design just because they have justification for doing it. On November 02 2011 03:36 MoonBear wrote:Denying is a terrible mechanic. Not only is it unintuitive to kill your own minions, it is also a forced skill ceiling that is created by implementing it. Denying in the original DotA was more an interesting bug in the game engine that lead to an actual technique. The purest competitive players will do anything in the name of min/max mathcraft regardless of what it is. That doesn't mean it's a good design though. Furthermore, deny only exacerbates skill difference between players and makes a miserable game experience, where instead you can have a mechanic that still allows for the obvious show in skill difference, but doesn't make it miserable for someone. Isn't that a lot better? A game where one person is happy and another has a terrible experience is a bad game. A game where two people can still feel good at the end is much better, even if that good feeling is not as extreme as the first case. no, you saying it's terrible is a lot different than it actually being terrible. see here you go proving my point again. I'd feel better when I lost if I thought it was entirely because it was my and my team's fault which frankly is more consistent with DotA/CS than LoL. On November 02 2011 03:36 MoonBear wrote:Furthermore, you obviously completely chose to ignore or fail to read what I wrote regarding the reward-recovery balance in games. The closing down of options due to arbitrary choices for false difficulty is fundamental failure in the design process to appropriately consider player input and response. While I cannot speak for CS or Quake, I can say that in BW though economy builds don't instant win you the game. That's silly. If they did, everyone would do that. Every build in BW has an appropriate counter. If someone goes 12Nex, you can bunker rush or Pool him and punish him for that greedy opening for instance. In these cases, there exists the option of counterplay in order to respond. Things such as gold loss remove the option for counterplay and heavily skew the balance of risk and recovery which is an unhealthy as it leads to heavy snowballing. go back and read my post. my point was that in BW Noni would beat me very quickly with an economy build regardless of what I did because that game allows for that, you know, because he is way fucking better than me. On November 02 2011 03:36 MoonBear wrote:Then you're not playing well enough. If you have the advantage, why don't you zone them? Or gank other lanes? Or if they can't farm well, push the lanes hard so they have to cs under tower. Or harass them. Or straight up kill them again. Find ways to capitalise on your advantage and don't just complain that you can't take advantage of mechanics or gameplay that is familiar to you or works for you. Ok, this is further proof that you just don't understand what the problem is. I cannot zone someone sitting at their inner turret. It may not literally be impossible but it's certainly unrealistic. So I go to gank another lane. This kid I've been destroying now gets to free farm and I can't take that money back by outplaying him. You make it sound like it's so easy to push people out of lanes in LoL and that's just not true. The instant I gather that someone is better than me I start playing very defensively. I don't wait for them to kill me. I just play back, lose a tiny bit of xp and farm but I don't die and I stay even enough in levels that I am not going to get dove. There, I have literally just stopped you from doing anything to me except outfarming me and outleveling me by single percentage points. I can stack gp/5 and get back in it EZPZ, or wait until you go to another lane to go farm. On November 02 2011 03:36 MoonBear wrote:Firstly, I don't work at Riot. Wtf are you smoking son. Secondly, most of that is just you going on a rant about everything you don't like including the art style. That's really nothing to do with game design. Thirdly, I would challenge you on your point that people who enjoy winning through skill don't play competitive LoL. Have you watched any good LoL matches? Have a look at the skill required to pull off some of those amazing plays. LoL may not be about that one person who goes hypercarry all over the enemy. But it still involves a massive amount of skill in its own way. CallMeVigoss stated himself that LoL is technically harder because you can't just farm to victory. Because there always exists counterplay and options, you have to earn that victory the hard way and close out that game. OK, fine, you don't work at Riot. My bad. you only talk like you do. And when did I complain about the art style? I wish other mobas were more like League's art in several important areas. Human characters and size relative to creeps are the biggest ones. And I quite like caster scaling, I think that's a brilliant idea. I've seen quite a lot of tournament play both live and in replay. And frankly I do not see this supposed "amazing high skill" that you suggest is out there if I would just look. Well, you won't miss me. At first. But then when loads of people start to look around and want something that gives them the opportunity to grow more, feel a greater sense of accomplishment (which is what happens when it is the things you do that win instead of matchups, luck or bugs), and has designers that don't tell them to fuck off because they don't like the direction things are going you might change your mind. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:50 TheYango wrote: As a DotA-related aside, I'm always confused about why DotA/HoN players complain about the lack of denying when creep pulling is a far more interesting mechanic that accomplishes the same goal of denying XP/gold and controlling the lane position. It also gives supports something to do in lane--instead of sitting in a brush and occasionally pressing a heal/shield/CC when people go on your carry, you pull creeps and actually have to last-hit them and stuff. Like if you're gonna argue DotA mechanics that are missing in LoL, denying is one of the most uninteresting ones, especially since its gameplay function is accomplished by other, more interesting mechanics. LoL does make a conscious effort to make supports in lane more proactive, healing in general has been nerfed since release basically. The meta has momentum though and it´s going to take a while until people won´t rage over something like a support Ashe. | ||
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Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
(every game) | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:02 red_b wrote: yes it is bitter and I'm not at all surprised that someone at riot doesnt understand why players who don't care about pub play would be mad. league caters to bad players at the expense of high skill cap champions because high skill mechanics are 'unfun'. in league it is impossible to really dominate your lane to the point where you make someone useless because that's not fun. So? On November 02 2011 03:02 red_b wrote: news flash: every competitive game lets significantly better plays handicap their worse opponents.. So does League, just not in the way that you would like. BW was very much a game built for "baddies" and "scrubs", not progamers. Blizzard in general follows the same philosophy as Riot on this. On November 02 2011 04:01 red_b wrote: proving my point, thanks. Orianna is high skill like farmville is highskill. Most of the heroes in DotA are far more simple, or about the same. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2011 04:01 red_b wrote: high skill techniques that are worth pulling off are so effective that they are unfun. take for example strafe jumping. you literally cannot win a quake duel against anyone decent if you don't do it unless you are a super duper high level player trolling some barely competent casual who plays a few games on the weekend. So far, you have provided examples of how unfun mechanical techniques exist in several competitive games. What you have NOT done is prove that they are necessary for a game to be competitive. On November 02 2011 04:01 red_b wrote: go back and read my post. my point was that in BW Noni would beat me very quickly with an economy build regardless of what I did because that game allows for that, you know, because he is way fucking better than me. You're basically arguing that one player/team that is drastically better than another player/team should be able to stomp them harder than they already can. Honestly, is this relevant to ANYONE'S meaningful experience? Does anyone really care whether it takes 5 minutes or 10 for Nony to stomp a D- noob? The only time where this becomes a relevant issue is when the probability of a worse player beating a better one through luck starts to become significant to the point of disrupting skill differentiation. And you have not proven that is the case. On November 02 2011 04:01 red_b wrote: So I go to gank another lane. This kid I've been destroying now gets to free farm and I can't take that money back by outplaying him. If you are not ganking in such a way that your benefit from ganking outweighs the free-farm he got top while you left, then you are not ganking effectively. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 02 2011 04:01 red_b wrote: You make it sound like it's so easy to push people out of lanes in LoL and that's just not true. The instant I gather that someone is better than me I start playing very defensively. I don't wait for them to kill me. I just play back, lose a tiny bit of xp and farm but I don't die and I stay even enough in levels that I am not going to get dove. There, I have literally just stopped you from doing anything to me except outfarming me and outleveling me by single percentage points. I can stack gp/5 and get back in it EZPZ, or wait until you go to another lane to go farm. But in the end you still lose because the enemy team takes Dragon, your buffs, and Baron while you are busy farming back up and can't fight as effectively because gold/10 items are ineffective for early/midgame fights. When the enemy team wards your jungle and takes all of it, at least one person is shut down HARD. A jungler has no safe place to fall back to if he gets pushed out of the jungle. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2011 03:02 red_b wrote: yes it is bitter and I'm not at all surprised that someone at riot doesnt understand why players who don't care about pub play would be mad. league caters to bad players at the expense of high skill cap champions because high skill mechanics are 'unfun'. in league it is impossible to really dominate your lane to the point where you make someone useless because that's not fun. Does anyone else find it funny how this guy thinks solo queue is not "pub play"? Get off your high horse, just cuz your little numbers in your profile go up when you win a ranked game, that doesn't make it any less of pub play. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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ArC_man
United States2798 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 02 2011 04:01 red_b wrote: Ok, this is further proof that you just don't understand what the problem is. I cannot zone someone sitting at their inner turret. It may not literally be impossible but it's certainly unrealistic. So I go to gank another lane. This kid I've been destroying now gets to free farm and I can't take that money back by outplaying him. You make it sound like it's so easy to push people out of lanes in LoL and that's just not true. The instant I gather that someone is better than me I start playing very defensively. I don't wait for them to kill me. I just play back, lose a tiny bit of xp and farm but I don't die and I stay even enough in levels that I am not going to get dove. There, I have literally just stopped you from doing anything to me except outfarming me and outleveling me by single percentage points. I can stack gp/5 and get back in it EZPZ, or wait until you go to another lane to go farm. This is the point where I honestly just started loling. You have not played vs. someone who understands how to pull a lane in LoL if you think you're not gonna be that far behind by camping your tower. Just because you can't kill your own creeps doesn't mean you can't make the lane pull. Also, you're trying to make us mad that it isn't easy to dominate someone? It's not supposed to be easy to rape someone at a game. QQ harder that you're not actually good enough to do the shit that you're bitching about. Jesus christ dude, just watch any high elo streamer on a smurf and lol at the futtbucking that ensues. It sounds like you're just mad that there's an actually elo system in place that keeps you from being able to play pubbies that will have enough of a skill differential for you to do the same, so you just don't see it. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Sure, you cant straight up force people to lose exp in the same way that you can in dota through denial. But smart lane positioning and understanding how waves push means that I can remove 2-3 creeps from my enemies experience pool every wave simply by soft zoning them- no risk to myself whatsoever. | ||
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
On November 02 2011 04:13 Shikyo wrote: By the way on the topic of fun useful techniques, in SSBM Wavedashing is extremely fun and satisfying. You can see in Nintendo the actual anti-competitive philosophy that this guy is bashing on. That's a real example of designing games to destroy competitive play (something Sakurai set out to do in Brawl). On the other hand, catering to multiple skill levels including entry level, is just good game design. Designing solely for the "hardcore" is wrong and bad, it vastly diminishes the size of the community (which is the wellspring of continuing talent and activity and churn). All the games mentioned were not consciously designed for a "super expert pro" audience, with the exception of Quake 3. Maybe. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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LoCicero
1100 Posts
On November 02 2011 04:14 TheYango wrote: Does anyone else find it funny how this guy thinks solo queue is not "pub play"? Get off your high horse, just cuz your little numbers in your profile go up when you win a ranked game, that doesn't make it any less of pub play. Solo queue is like the definition of pub play. I would know because according to Saintvicious I'm a "pub stomper who can only play three champs." | ||
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