[Patch 1.0.0.128: Shyvana] General Discussion - Page 12

Want to rage about your latest loss?
Use the QQ thread.
If you whine in GD, you'll get warned.

- Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

November 01 2011 18:20 GMT

#221

On November 02 2011 03:02 red_b wrote:
league caters to bad players at the expense of high skill cap champions because high skill mechanics are 'unfun'. in league it is impossible to really dominate your lane to the point where you make someone useless because that's not fun. news flash: every competitive game lets significantly better plays handicap their worse opponents.

The thing is, in practice any scenario in which that kind of skill differential is one that should be present is a scenario that should be avoided. If a player is playing against a player that is THAT much better than them, then matchmaking has failed at some level. In a competitive event, it's meaningless because if the skill differential between two teams was really that high, the inferior team will just get crushed later rather than sooner.

Deny counts in competitive DotA games tend to be on the low side. Situations where one player gets to deny 100% of the creeps in a wave only really occur in pub games where a matchup is insanely slanted. In practice, because players are of similar mechanical skill, it ends up serving more as a tool to control where the lane meets (which can be done through other mechanics).

On November 02 2011 03:02 red_b wrote:
it's true if I play with level 25s I can go AD zilean or some stupid crap like that and decimate all of them but in a ranked game I can eat my lane opponent and they can come back because they just camp safe spots and farm. I cannot take their money. I cannot take their exp. this is especially annoying against late game characters who require teamwork to stop because, of course, it's solo queue.

Solo queue IS pub play. You're contradicting yourself.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

November 01 2011 18:21 GMT

#222

It's not my fault that I would just afk at fountain if the opposing team comp was Karthus + Shaco + Fiddle + Poppy + Yorrick. They're really just broken and stupid assholes who are unfun for everyone involved.

Two_DoWn

United States13684 Posts

November 01 2011 18:23 GMT

#223

Wow. Karthus over Zilian?

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

November 01 2011 18:25 GMT

#224

Are you shitting me? Zilean sucks ass, he's only good if you lane vs. retards and get to go 5/0 in lane. Karthus can be 0/20/0 with a mejais and still win the game for you with Revive and Teleport for summoners.

Cixah

United States11285 Posts

November 01 2011 18:26 GMT

#225

Kathus ult do 1billion damage, Needs 3 minute cd.

Kidding aside, I rarely find zileans so I can't say that they are bonkers stupid, but when I play him I do have a feeling of complete immortality for my team.

Slaughter

United States20254 Posts

November 01 2011 18:28 GMT

#226

On November 02 2011 03:09 MeatatoCake wrote:
Her resource system is a little silly imo. No resource for human form but rage for le dragooon?
One would probably have to have an "aggressive playstyle" with Shyvanna in top lane.
These shaco changes are a little scary. Has anyone else seen the recent influx of smite exhaust shacos pubstomping?

Ive seen plenty of shacos jungling and not taking smite lately. He is one of those heros that requires a lot of game sense and knowledge of how the game is. A good Shaco is like Fucking lame because you almost have the feeling you could be dead at anytime anywhere if you don't have good warding/oracle. But too many do things that would be obvious to anyone and it makes them predictable.

JackDino

Gabon6219 Posts

November 01 2011 18:29 GMT

#227

0/20/0 karthus will do liek no damage because he's dead most of the game, has no stacks on his mejais and because he was dead most of the game he has no items so he doesn't do damage.
Not taking smite on your jungler is dumb, especially as shaco where your smite does more damage than any of the other smites lol.

Slaughter

United States20254 Posts

November 01 2011 18:34 GMT

#228

On November 02 2011 03:29 JackDino wrote:
0/20/0 karthus will do liek no damage because he's dead most of the game, has no stacks on his mejais and because he was dead most of the game he has no items so he doesn't do damage.
Not taking smite on your jungler is dumb, especially as shaco where your smite does more damage than any of the other smites lol.

I love that Lich bastard. He so messes up my playing other champs though when it comes to actual mechanics. I always mess up pressing buttons sometimes just because on Karthus its not required. Your really only Qing consistently and your focusing more on hitting things with it. While other champs like Renekton that I play I have to use all 3 keys consistently in a battle and R usually just before.

Its weird does anything like think exactly what you need to do in your head as its happening you just have a hard time sometimes translating that out into your fingers pushing the right buttons on time and in the right sequence? I mean I actually die not infrequently because while trying to flash I press R and start channeling Requiem -_-

IntoTheWow

is awesome32277 Posts

November 01 2011 18:35 GMT

#229

How did Saint run her? Anyone knows? 21/0/9 cloth + 5 pots? Runes? pure AS + Armor + Arpen?

MoonBear

Straight outta Johto18973 Posts

November 01 2011 18:36 GMT

#230

Wait, wait, what? Ok. I'm actually going to take the bait here and actually respond to each point one by one.

Ok, two things here. Firstly, you suggest that LoL doesn't have high skill mechanics and that it caters to bad players. Orianna is a pretty high skill ceiling champion and was a recent release too. I hardly see that as pandering to bad players. Also, you suggest all skilled mechanics are unfun, which is again incorrect. Morgana ult is requires a lot of skill to use right, but is hardly unfun. You again must go back to the definition of what is considered unfun or not. I think you're using too broad of a definition and failing to fundamentally understand what it means to design well.

Your second point on denying in lane I will come to below.

On November 02 2011 03:02 red_b wrote:
in DotA you can deny and you take all of their money.
in Counter Strike you gimp their economy
in Quake you own all of the weapons, armor and health points
in BW you just flat out win 7 minutes into the game with economy builds

Denying is a terrible mechanic. Not only is it unintuitive to kill your own minions, it is also a forced skill ceiling that is created by implementing it. Denying in the original DotA was more an interesting bug in the game engine that lead to an actual technique. The purest competitive players will do anything in the name of min/max mathcraft regardless of what it is. That doesn't mean it's a good design though. Furthermore, deny only exacerbates skill difference between players and makes a miserable game experience, where instead you can have a mechanic that still allows for the obvious show in skill difference, but doesn't make it miserable for someone. Isn't that a lot better? A game where one person is happy and another has a terrible experience is a bad game. A game where two people can still feel good at the end is much better, even if that good feeling is not as extreme as the first case.

Furthermore, you obviously completely chose to ignore or fail to read what I wrote regarding the reward-recovery balance in games. The closing down of options due to arbitrary choices for false difficulty is fundamental failure in the design process to appropriately consider player input and response. While I cannot speak for CS or Quake, I can say that in BW though economy builds don't instant win you the game. That's silly. If they did, everyone would do that. Every build in BW has an appropriate counter. If someone goes 12Nex, you can bunker rush or Pool him and punish him for that greedy opening for instance. In these cases, there exists the option of counterplay in order to respond. Things such as gold loss remove the option for counterplay and heavily skew the balance of risk and recovery which is an unhealthy as it leads to heavy snowballing.

On November 02 2011 03:02 red_b wrote:
it's true if I play with level 25s I can go AD zilean or some stupid crap like that and decimate all of them but in a ranked game I can eat my lane opponent and they can come back because they just camp safe spots and farm. I cannot take their money. I cannot take their exp. this is especially annoying against late game characters who require teamwork to stop because, of course, it's solo queue.

Then you're not playing well enough. If you have the advantage, why don't you zone them? Or gank other lanes? Or if they can't farm well, push the lanes hard so they have to cs under tower. Or harass them. Or straight up kill them again. Find ways to capitalise on your advantage and don't just complain that you can't take advantage of mechanics or gameplay that is familiar to you or works for you.

You could even argue that capitalising on your advantage in LoL is even harder than in DotA because of no deny. Hey, higher skill ceiling! Just because something worked in DotA or any other game doesn't mean it has to be applicable for LoL. They are two separate games even if they are based around a similar concept.

Also, bad teamwork in a team based game isn't an excuse to complain. I could argue that if I played DotA and one of my team members messed up and fed the enemy carry then we're all doomed because there is no counter play that is available to me as my team will be zoned or denied and the other team snowballs out of control.

What is important is that you take a step back and look at the design process through untinted glasses and consider it holistically and without bias.

On November 02 2011 03:02 red_b wrote:
that is "good game design" if you're aiming to make a casual multiplayer game. it is bad game design if you are trying to make a game that people who enjoy winning through skill will play competitively. just because you work at Riot doesnt mean you get to make the rules as to what is good and what is bad when it comes to game design. If you really knew no one would care about a graphical update to a game that is older than the sun.

Firstly, I don't work at Riot. Secondly, most of that is just you going on a rant about everything you don't like including the art style. That's really nothing to do with game design. Thirdly, I would challenge you on your point that people who enjoy winning through skill don't play competitive LoL. Have you watched any good LoL matches? Have a look at the skill required to pull off some of those amazing plays. LoL may not be about that one person who goes hypercarry all over the enemy. But it still involves a massive amount of skill in its own way. CallMeVigoss stated himself that LoL is technically harder because you can't just farm to victory. Because there always exists counterplay and options, you have to earn that victory the hard way and close out that game.

On November 02 2011 03:02 red_b wrote:
Im sure you guys will laugh all the way to the bank, but I'm done spending money on League and again, the second DotA 2 comes out I'm gone unless something major changes with your supposedly well designed game.

Just my 2c.

You know, if you're just a bitter DotA purist who wants his enforced artificial hardness and isn't willing to look at things rationally, then I'm not exactly going to miss you.

Two_DoWn

United States13684 Posts

November 01 2011 18:39 GMT

#231

I actually think the whole hypercarry thing makes for an easier game at the tournament level. All it comes down to is did champ x get farmed enough or not. That puts the onus on 6 players in the game, the hypercarry and the enemy team. At least in competitive lol you need all 10 players to win a game.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

November 01 2011 18:42 GMT

#232

unless you have a farmed Kog Maw.

and don't you dare cite that stupid CLG game, CLG was miles ahead, they just let it drag out way the fuck too long and then the Kog team played like idiots by pushing and not protecting Kog.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

November 01 2011 18:43 GMT

#233

On November 02 2011 03:39 Two_DoWn wrote:
I actually think the whole hypercarry thing makes for an easier game at the tournament level. All it comes down to is did champ x get farmed enough or not. That puts the onus on 6 players in the game, the hypercarry and the enemy team. At least in competitive lol you need all 10 players to win a game.

In the scheme of competitive play, "hypercarry" in DotA is grossly exaggerated.

spinesheath

Germany8679 Posts

November 01 2011 18:44 GMT

#234

Sorry man, in LoL it's HARD to secure a win against mechanically worse enemies. You have to work to turn your mechanical skill advantage into a victory. In games like BW you get the win served on a silver platter if your mechanics are superior.

LoL is different. That is all.

And solo Q is solo Q.

HAL9OOO

United States176 Posts

November 01 2011 18:46 GMT

#235

On November 01 2011 20:16 sob3k wrote:

Show nested quote +

Man, there are so many cool concepts for heroes and abilities out there that havent been touched by LOL....

Pickpocket hero that steals gold
Support hero who lays down neutral buffs on the ground (stand in it to get effect) (maybe can blow them up as ult/trap)
Hero who can disguise as a creep
Hero who can reflect/rebound skills
Trap skill that fires in a direction
Skill that slows down all time in a bubble
Hero that buffs and sacs creeps
Skill that reduces other heroes skill range
Skill that turns a damaging enemy spell into a heal
Skill that makes temporary brush (kind of opposite of graves)
Hero who doesn't lane and gets money from walking
Hero who fucks with the minimap
skills which deal damage based on distance target traveled over X time
Low CD skill which greatly speeds and then greatly slows target hero (can be used on enemies and allies)
Skill which fires pattern of small projectiles that you have to dodge raiden style
big round Aoe skill whose only safe zone is right near the caster (minimum range)
circle skill which if you cross the edge moves you to the opposite edge like going off the screen in asteroids
Hero who consumes and stores buffs and debuffs from other heroes for later use (maybe only debuffs to prevent trolling)
Hero who passively powers up by standing still
Hero who targets all their skills to areas and then releases ("run program") them with another skill (have to predict enemies)
Hero who can turn invisible to all heroes except one (I SWEAR HE'S RIGHT HERE, AOE TO MY LEFT!)
Skill which tags enemies with parasitic vision like queen in BW
Skill which makes enemies lose control of movement and "slide" in the direction they were going at increased speed
Hero who gets buffs in River
Support hero who carries Items to other heroes
Heroes with non-expiring controllable minion
Hero who places portals, go ontop of one---> tele to the other, can stealth them to trick enemies into them.
Hero who burns mana (still not in LOL)
Hero who can switch their mana and health
Hero who can force other heroes to use skills (spell taunt)

Thats just some cool shit off the top of my head....I wanna see this kind of stuff instead of "herp, durp, imma dragon now my skills do AOE"

I for one think his ideas are alright, hes not designing the champions hes just saying theres room for more original skill design in this game, and these are just starting ideas to maybe work/balance off of. Even the "reverse a spell" idea seems like it wouldn't be impossible to balance. I can imagine having a support have an ult like kayles ult that instead of letting the next spell on an ally deal dmg, reverses the dmg into a heal. That could give some pretty clutch massive heals/spell denial.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

November 01 2011 18:46 GMT

#236

On November 02 2011 03:44 spinesheath wrote:
Sorry man, in LoL it's HARD to secure a win against mechanically worse enemies. You have to work to turn your mechanical skill advantage into a victory. In games like BW you get the win served on a silver platter if your mechanics are superior.

LoL is different. That is all.

And solo Q is solo Q.

I disagree. It's extremely easy to secure a win against mechanically worse enemies. You just can't do it with mechanics alone. You need to know how to leverage a mechanical advantage.

rwrzr

United States1980 Posts

November 01 2011 18:47 GMT

#237

On November 02 2011 03:43 TheYango wrote:

Show nested quote +

In the scheme of competitive play, "hypercarry" in DotA is grossly exaggerated.

Hypercarries are also a function of gold loss on death and item stat distributions/recipes

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

November 01 2011 18:50 GMT

#238

As a DotA-related aside, I'm always confused about why DotA/HoN players complain about the lack of denying when creep pulling is a far more interesting mechanic that accomplishes the same goal of denying XP/gold and controlling the lane position, while also allowing for more counter-play through warding/counterwarding creep spawns. It also gives supports something to do in lane--instead of sitting in a brush and occasionally pressing a heal/shield/CC when people go on your carry, you pull creeps and actually have to last-hit them and stuff.

Like if you're gonna argue DotA mechanics that are missing in LoL, denying is one of the most uninteresting ones, especially since its gameplay function is accomplished by other, more interesting mechanics.

spinesheath

Germany8679 Posts

November 01 2011 18:51 GMT

#239

On November 02 2011 03:46 Mogwai wrote:

Show nested quote +

I disagree. It's extremely easy to secure a win against mechanically worse enemies. You just can't do it with mechanics alone. You need to know how to leverage a mechanical advantage.

Hard as in: You need additional skills, not just mechanical. I'm pretty sure we actually agree.

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

November 01 2011 18:52 GMT

#240

So first of all is the dragon lady OP? second, would my warmogs atma fon warmogs warmogs build be good on her?

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