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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. - Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th |
On November 10 2011 04:46 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 03:59 Alzadar wrote:
How true is true damage? Are true damage spells affected at all by things like Exhaust, Urgot's passive, Poppy's passive, Alistar ultimate, stacked Leviathan, etc?
And on the topic of Poppy's passive, is it calculated before or after resistances? - Leviathan will lower true damage taken as it blocks all forms of damage instead of providing mitigation.
- Urgot's passive was fixed to not affect true damage.
- Alistar Ultimate will not block true damage as it provides mitigation stats, not damage blocking.
- Spell shields will block any spell that has a true damage component so will block the damage.
- Exhaust will not lower the true damage component of any spell damage, but will lower the rest of the damage.
- Poppy's passive should not block true damage.
- Kayle Ult and Panth Passive blocks all form of damage and so will block True Damage.
Re Poppy's Passive: Afaik it is based on actual damage dealt and not pre-mitigation damage, so armour and resistances are taken into account first. Her passive also only applies to the component of the damage that exceeds 10% of her current health. So it doesn't apply to the entire attack, only the part that does more damage than the 10% threshold.
You are 100% wrong on Pantheon passive =\. Also, I have no idea why Leviathan would block when Ali and Poppy wouldn't. Are you sure on all these cases MoonBear.
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On November 10 2011 04:51 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:46 MoonBear wrote:On November 10 2011 03:59 Alzadar wrote:
How true is true damage? Are true damage spells affected at all by things like Exhaust, Urgot's passive, Poppy's passive, Alistar ultimate, stacked Leviathan, etc?
And on the topic of Poppy's passive, is it calculated before or after resistances? - Leviathan will lower true damage taken as it blocks all forms of damage instead of providing mitigation.
- Urgot's passive was fixed to not affect true damage.
- Alistar Ultimate will not block true damage as it provides mitigation stats, not damage blocking.
- Spell shields will block any spell that has a true damage component so will block the damage.
- Exhaust will not lower the true damage component of any spell damage, but will lower the rest of the damage.
- Poppy's passive should not block true damage.
- Kayle Ult and Panth Passive blocks all form of damage and so will block True Damage.
Re Poppy's Passive: Afaik it is based on actual damage dealt and not pre-mitigation damage, so armour and resistances are taken into account first. Her passive also only applies to the component of the damage that exceeds 10% of her current health. So it doesn't apply to the entire attack, only the part that does more damage than the 10% threshold. You are 100% wrong on Pantheon passive =\. Also, I have no idea why Leviathan would block when Ali and Poppy wouldn't. Are you sure on all these cases MoonBear.
Well the bonus from Leviathan at 20 stacks is 15% damage reduction so it should in theory i guess?
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On November 10 2011 04:51 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:46 MoonBear wrote:On November 10 2011 03:59 Alzadar wrote:
How true is true damage? Are true damage spells affected at all by things like Exhaust, Urgot's passive, Poppy's passive, Alistar ultimate, stacked Leviathan, etc?
And on the topic of Poppy's passive, is it calculated before or after resistances? - Leviathan will lower true damage taken as it blocks all forms of damage instead of providing mitigation.
- Urgot's passive was fixed to not affect true damage.
- Alistar Ultimate will not block true damage as it provides mitigation stats, not damage blocking.
- Spell shields will block any spell that has a true damage component so will block the damage.
- Exhaust will not lower the true damage component of any spell damage, but will lower the rest of the damage.
- Poppy's passive should not block true damage.
- Kayle Ult and Panth Passive blocks all form of damage and so will block True Damage.
Re Poppy's Passive: Afaik it is based on actual damage dealt and not pre-mitigation damage, so armour and resistances are taken into account first. Her passive also only applies to the component of the damage that exceeds 10% of her current health. So it doesn't apply to the entire attack, only the part that does more damage than the 10% threshold. You are 100% wrong on Pantheon passive =\. Also, I have no idea why Leviathan would block when Ali and Poppy wouldn't. Are you sure on all these cases MoonBear.
I was under the impression that true damage was affected by damage reduction but not armor or magic resist
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On November 10 2011 04:40 Kyhron wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:32 dnastyx wrote:On November 10 2011 03:16 Kyhron wrote:On November 10 2011 03:10 dnastyx wrote:On November 10 2011 03:06 Kyhron wrote:On November 10 2011 03:05 Mogwai wrote:On November 10 2011 02:56 Zdrastochye wrote:
Would any of you buy MBR if the tanks had 300 armor and 40 mr?
HAH. no, I'd just tell my AP Carry to 1 shot their tanks. What if your AP carry is doing crap cuz they have no farm/kills and have done nothing but fail? just some theorycrafting to your response You are trying to point out the worst possible edge cases, when your original line of thought was that it was a good item to help Ez scale into late game. Do you see why this isn't helpful to your point? I usually dont get MBR on Ez unless the other team starts building alot of health into the 3k plus range of health. Obviously LW is a better choice but saying that MBR isnt good because of MR while ignoring the champs that get large amounts of health without getting MR or when someone gets an Atmogs and no MR item doesnt disprove it You don't get it. The scenario you pointed out will almost never happen, so it's not useful for thinking about the effectiveness of the item.I didn't say that bloodrazor was bad because of MR. You picked what is literally the worst edge case for when you should buy bloodrazor: Tanks on the enemy didn't build any MR, your AP carry is failing mid... TIME TO BUILD BLOODRAZOR! At that point you probably lost the game if the other team is that ahead, so it doesn't really matter what you build. As for your point about the Atmogs/no MR thing, it's been addressed already. On November 10 2011 03:38 Kyhron wrote:On November 10 2011 03:36 Two_DoWn wrote:
Bloodrazor proc is 4%. That means in order to take 1 extra bar of health the opponent needs to have 2500 health- and thats with no mr. To take 2 bars it takes 5000 health. And NO ONE gets 5000 health. So basically what you are seeing is the ad reflected in the sheen and scaling, NOT the madreds proc. Like I said lets leave it at agreeing to disagree. Ill play my way you play yours and theres less arguing But apparently you're not interested in actually discussing by merits, so you decide to cop out and leave. Dude.We're not trying to bash on you here. (Well, that last sentence was kind of a dig at you I guess?) We're trying to have a real discussion, and your points have basically been 1) well here's a worst case scenario and 2) anecdotes. The plural of anecdotes still isn't data. So youre saying that youve never had games where the AP failed but you as an AD carry has dominated your lane to the extent your AP has failed where its balanced out and the opposing tank has delayed there MR items for more health/armor to counter your AD? Thats not that farfetched of a senario, sure i made it a little exaggerated, but ive run into that exact situation and MBR has helped. Its one thing to say its not optimal and another to say its completely worthless which is what people have been saying.
The plural of "anecdotes" is still not "data".
I don't actually care what you think about bloodrazor, but can you at least see why your style of argument is not conducive to actual discussion?
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On November 10 2011 04:51 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:46 MoonBear wrote:On November 10 2011 03:59 Alzadar wrote:
How true is true damage? Are true damage spells affected at all by things like Exhaust, Urgot's passive, Poppy's passive, Alistar ultimate, stacked Leviathan, etc?
And on the topic of Poppy's passive, is it calculated before or after resistances? - Leviathan will lower true damage taken as it blocks all forms of damage instead of providing mitigation.
- Urgot's passive was fixed to not affect true damage.
- Alistar Ultimate will not block true damage as it provides mitigation stats, not damage blocking.
- Spell shields will block any spell that has a true damage component so will block the damage.
- Exhaust will not lower the true damage component of any spell damage, but will lower the rest of the damage.
- Poppy's passive should not block true damage.
- Kayle Ult and Panth Passive blocks all form of damage and so will block True Damage.
Re Poppy's Passive: Afaik it is based on actual damage dealt and not pre-mitigation damage, so armour and resistances are taken into account first. Her passive also only applies to the component of the damage that exceeds 10% of her current health. So it doesn't apply to the entire attack, only the part that does more damage than the 10% threshold. You are 100% wrong on Pantheon passive =\. Also, I have no idea why Leviathan would block when Ali and Poppy wouldn't. Are you sure on all these cases MoonBear.
The wording the Ali's ult is that it reduces "physical and magic damage for 7 seconds", which sounds like it was worded specifically so that True Damage would not be reduced. Otherwise why wouldn't it just say 'damage'?
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United States47024 Posts
On November 10 2011 04:54 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:51 Mogwai wrote:On November 10 2011 04:46 MoonBear wrote:On November 10 2011 03:59 Alzadar wrote:
How true is true damage? Are true damage spells affected at all by things like Exhaust, Urgot's passive, Poppy's passive, Alistar ultimate, stacked Leviathan, etc?
And on the topic of Poppy's passive, is it calculated before or after resistances? - Leviathan will lower true damage taken as it blocks all forms of damage instead of providing mitigation.
- Urgot's passive was fixed to not affect true damage.
- Alistar Ultimate will not block true damage as it provides mitigation stats, not damage blocking.
- Spell shields will block any spell that has a true damage component so will block the damage.
- Exhaust will not lower the true damage component of any spell damage, but will lower the rest of the damage.
- Poppy's passive should not block true damage.
- Kayle Ult and Panth Passive blocks all form of damage and so will block True Damage.
Re Poppy's Passive: Afaik it is based on actual damage dealt and not pre-mitigation damage, so armour and resistances are taken into account first. Her passive also only applies to the component of the damage that exceeds 10% of her current health. So it doesn't apply to the entire attack, only the part that does more damage than the 10% threshold. You are 100% wrong on Pantheon passive =\. Also, I have no idea why Leviathan would block when Ali and Poppy wouldn't. Are you sure on all these cases MoonBear. I was under the impression that true damage was affected by damage reduction but not armor or magic resist
No, other forms of pure damage reduction (e.g. 21-defense mastery, Olaf ultimate, and Garen's W active) do not reduce true damage.
They must have just forgotten to change the Leviathan passive.
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On November 10 2011 04:32 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:16 Juicyfruit wrote:
Let's be fair though, SV is crazy. Don't imitate his build unless you plan on imitating his craziness. He also does the same build in solo queue on shaco. He also jungles janna. Let's not take things out of context here.
He does these things at the highest level against people who could hardly be considered "low elo scrubs".
The reason why Yi can build glass cannon and bruisers can't is because of his skillset. He has an ability refresh after kills similar to Akali/Kat which also doubles as a get-out-of-jail-free card (this combined with Ghostblade + Flash = splitpush all day and never be afraid of any ganks with less than 3 hard CCs). His Q also acts as a desynch to many skills (good example is Morgana ult) which again allows him to get away with building more damage and allows him to splitpush well. With the Ghostblade->Triforce build he can play very similarly to an assassin (happens to be the current meta) except he has huge sustained DPS (he'll beat most bruisers 1v1 and even if he starts losing he can run away for free with ult/ghostblade) but not as much frontloaded burst. Yi with this build teamfights just fine as long as you play him with an assassin's mentality rather than a bruiser mentality.
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I was also under the assumption that NOTHING reduced true damage and they did a sweep a while back to change everything to a format whereby true damage could never be reduced.
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On November 10 2011 04:46 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 03:59 Alzadar wrote:
How true is true damage? Are true damage spells affected at all by things like Exhaust, Urgot's passive, Poppy's passive, Alistar ultimate, stacked Leviathan, etc?
And on the topic of Poppy's passive, is it calculated before or after resistances? Re Poppy's Passive: Afaik it is based on actual damage dealt and not pre-mitigation damage, so armour and resistances are taken into account first. Her passive also only applies to the component of the damage that exceeds 10% of her current health. So it doesn't apply to the entire attack, only the part that does more damage than the 10% threshold.
Wow, that's actually really unclear from the description the game gives. I've always thought it just halved all sources of damage that hit for more than 10% of her health.
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Simple thought Ive had for a while now, but why the hell don't the other tenacity items have MORE tenacity than merc treads. The reason you still get mercs over other sources is because everyone has boots. Its a slot you are going to throw away in order to get the movespeed, and if you need tenacity, then thats the slot you want to get the bonus on. If you want, say ap, there are FAR more slot efficient items to get than spellblade.
So realistically, what incentive is there to ever NOT just get mercs?
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On November 10 2011 04:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:54 Phrost wrote:On November 10 2011 04:51 Mogwai wrote:On November 10 2011 04:46 MoonBear wrote:On November 10 2011 03:59 Alzadar wrote:
How true is true damage? Are true damage spells affected at all by things like Exhaust, Urgot's passive, Poppy's passive, Alistar ultimate, stacked Leviathan, etc?
And on the topic of Poppy's passive, is it calculated before or after resistances? - Leviathan will lower true damage taken as it blocks all forms of damage instead of providing mitigation.
- Urgot's passive was fixed to not affect true damage.
- Alistar Ultimate will not block true damage as it provides mitigation stats, not damage blocking.
- Spell shields will block any spell that has a true damage component so will block the damage.
- Exhaust will not lower the true damage component of any spell damage, but will lower the rest of the damage.
- Poppy's passive should not block true damage.
- Kayle Ult and Panth Passive blocks all form of damage and so will block True Damage.
Re Poppy's Passive: Afaik it is based on actual damage dealt and not pre-mitigation damage, so armour and resistances are taken into account first. Her passive also only applies to the component of the damage that exceeds 10% of her current health. So it doesn't apply to the entire attack, only the part that does more damage than the 10% threshold. You are 100% wrong on Pantheon passive =\. Also, I have no idea why Leviathan would block when Ali and Poppy wouldn't. Are you sure on all these cases MoonBear. I was under the impression that true damage was affected by damage reduction but not armor or magic resist No, other forms of pure damage reduction (e.g. 21-defense mastery, Olaf ultimate, and Garen's W active) do not reduce true damage. They must have just forgotten to change the Leviathan passive.
v1.0.0.115 - 2011-04-11
Fixed a bug where a capped Leviathan was reducing true damage
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But then they would have to nerf merc treads because items probably shouldn't give MORE than 35% tenacity.
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On November 10 2011 04:12 ArC_man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 03:55 Slayer91 wrote:On November 10 2011 03:40 ArC_man wrote:On November 10 2011 03:34 Slayer91 wrote:On November 10 2011 03:25 barbsq wrote:On November 10 2011 03:22 Slayer91 wrote:
I dunno, I only bought yi a couple weeks ago but whenever I play him I just go like SUPER FARM JUNGLE IN 1 Q and have decent ganks if I save my Q for flash, then I go wriggles-->warmogs atmas or wriggles-->avarice-->warmogs atmas. Yi has such fucking good steriods I have no idea why people cling on to the low elo bullshit of being glass cannon melee. it depends on your overall goal, atmogs is a team-fight oriented build, glass cannon is basically the rest of my team holds them 4v5 under tower while i split push, and if 1 person comes to stop me, i can kill him, and if 2 ppl come, i can run away while my team crushes them 4v3. u can do the same thing with shaco, atmogs is acceptable if you want to be in teamfights making things happen (tho this isn't common). shaco also has a bit better kit for assassination "If 1 person comes to stop me, i can kill him". Any bruiser can say that. If it's an AD carry, that is. If it's an AP carry with a stun you'll probably die if you tower dive. If it's another bruiser, even if you're lucky enough that he's not someone who rapes you you still won't be able to tower dive him since he'll be too tanky. Yi is good at backdooring because he can kill towers fast and then run away, I don't buy into your trying to play it off as a legitimate strat against a coordinated team. "Glass cannon" Yi would be like going Wriggles->Ghostblade(->Triforce) which imo is a perfectly fine build. I never see any sucessful Yi players. All the yi players I do see go wriggles/berserkers (seriously lol)/ghostblade-->more damage shit like triforce, ie etc). I don't understand your post. You just explained to me your version of glass cannon yi and then told me its fine without any justification. You are putting yourself in the position to be attacked by every member their team in teamfights as a melee if you want to do damage. Every other sustained damage melee in the game except tryndamere (who has his ultimate) builds lots of tank items due to this. What makes yi different? Why do you insist on building so much damage so fast when in terms of 1v1 potential it doesn't help that much because you rape ad carries with either tank items or damage items and ap carries will 1 combo you with squishy builds. You end up doing MORE damage when you have enough survivability to go for squishies without worrying about getting instant killed. And i'm not saying split pushing isn't effective. I'm saying split pushing with that yi build isn't all that amazing since most bruisers can stop you pushing because hybrid builds are way more efficient for 1v1ing than pure damage builds and generally all you need to do it hold tower. Being squishy and having lots of damage is great for killing towers before solo queue teams can react but I'm saying I'd prefer to be tankier that the risk of getting 1 combo'd and giving free baron is much less. A typical solo top with teleport is actually generally more effective at split pushing because he's insanely hard to kill but can also TP to fights whereas smite flash yi can't really do that. You've never seen saintvicious' Yi? He goes Wriggles -> Mercs -> Ghostblade -> Triforce -> Atmogs (yes he starts building Atmogs after he completes Triforce) almost every game I've seen him play Yi and I've basically never seen him do poorly (or even lose). I was telling you his build (which is a glass cannon build up until super late game) since you were so stubbornly sure that only low elo people use glass cannon builds with Yi.
As someone who's played yi for awhile and watched and copied Saint for awhile on his Yi, it seems to me that the whole point of Master Yi is that the glass cannon shouldn't effect you as you shouldn't be at the start of a team fight, if anything you clean up on the edges, killing those who would get away.
You will die(I know) over and over again trying to treat yi as a bruiser until super late game where you have items like warmog/atmas. Either avoid team fights(you push towers screw kills, towers win games) or you wait until after a fight breaks out and people to blow exhausts/cd's then and only then do you go in and watch the kills rack up. Even then it's still dangerous and I'd rather force someone to come try and 1v1 me(most times you will win that fight) as I push a tower then team fight till late game or warmogs.
Master Yi, requires cc to gank from jungle but never should you doubt the wuju style.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On November 10 2011 04:51 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:46 MoonBear wrote:On November 10 2011 03:59 Alzadar wrote:
How true is true damage? Are true damage spells affected at all by things like Exhaust, Urgot's passive, Poppy's passive, Alistar ultimate, stacked Leviathan, etc?
And on the topic of Poppy's passive, is it calculated before or after resistances? - Leviathan will lower true damage taken as it blocks all forms of damage instead of providing mitigation.
- Urgot's passive was fixed to not affect true damage.
- Alistar Ultimate will not block true damage as it provides mitigation stats, not damage blocking.
- Spell shields will block any spell that has a true damage component so will block the damage.
- Exhaust will not lower the true damage component of any spell damage, but will lower the rest of the damage.
- Poppy's passive should not block true damage.
- Kayle Ult and Panth Passive blocks all form of damage and so will block True Damage.
Re Poppy's Passive: Afaik it is based on actual damage dealt and not pre-mitigation damage, so armour and resistances are taken into account first. Her passive also only applies to the component of the damage that exceeds 10% of her current health. So it doesn't apply to the entire attack, only the part that does more damage than the 10% threshold. You are 100% wrong on Pantheon passive =\. Also, I have no idea why Leviathan would block when Ali and Poppy wouldn't. Are you sure on all these cases MoonBear.
Just tested it. Panth passive will block the physical component of an autoattack but not the true damage component. Seems a little odd... Will check with QA on this. Not sure if oversight or just unclear wording.
My apologies on mentioning Leviathan as blocking True Damage. As USnip pointed out correctly, was patched over.
Re Mercs: Whenever you get Tabi I guess? HSGG sometimes goes Tabi Cho and then Moonflair or Eleisa. The current non-boots Tenacity items aren't very good though. Design is thinking of allowing you to upgrade them into something else further but no concrete plans.
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On November 10 2011 05:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
Simple thought Ive had for a while now, but why the hell don't the other tenacity items have MORE tenacity than merc treads. The reason you still get mercs over other sources is because everyone has boots. Its a slot you are going to throw away in order to get the movespeed, and if you need tenacity, then thats the slot you want to get the bonus on. If you want, say ap, there are FAR more slot efficient items to get than spellblade.
So realistically, what incentive is there to ever NOT just get mercs?
I think slot efficiency is pretty overrated personally. Most games are decided before it matters unless you're just spamming base items, and if it were super super important we wouldn't be seeing shit like wriggles and two dorans blades at high elo.
Spellblade seems pretty bad to me though, cloak and dagger and reverie are ok. don't seem great by any stretch though
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Spectator mode (beta) now available for custom games. I can't believe it. lol
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On November 10 2011 05:19 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
Simple thought Ive had for a while now, but why the hell don't the other tenacity items have MORE tenacity than merc treads. The reason you still get mercs over other sources is because everyone has boots. Its a slot you are going to throw away in order to get the movespeed, and if you need tenacity, then thats the slot you want to get the bonus on. If you want, say ap, there are FAR more slot efficient items to get than spellblade.
So realistically, what incentive is there to ever NOT just get mercs? I think slot efficiency is pretty overrated personally. Most games are decided before it matters unless you're just spamming base items, and if it were super super important we wouldn't be seeing shit like wriggles and two dorans blades at high elo. Spellblade seems pretty bad to me though, cloak and dagger and reverie are ok. not great by any stretch
Even then, I have boots. No matter what. If I need tenacity, I just need 850 gold. That doesnt come CLOSE to evening out with any other tenacity item, so I can save gold and get a faster anything else that is a MUCH better item.
@ Moon- the only way they become an actual choice is if the cost is dramatically lowered. Like instead of blasting want for spellblade, it should be an amp tome with, say a 400 gold upgrade cost, AND build into something better. As I said earlier, the real "cost" of merc treads is only 850 gold. Even if the other tenacity items built into things, it just seems like early game, when gold is important, you are just going to rush for whatever is cheapest.
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The main problem is that the items are generally pretty bad. They not very cost effective and most dead end mid tier items are very cost effective.
Eleisa's is way too expensive. It's a way of turning an lane oriented regen+gold/10 item into a regen+tenacity item. The point of philo is regen becoming less effective is counterbalanced by the gold/10 if you get it early. Eleisa's makes you fork out another 500 gold for regen you don't want and tenacity but you lose the gold/10 as well. Philo is already something not guaranteed to be worth it in lane.
There are no other options for melees who are the ones who really want tenacity. Otherwise carries wouldn't mind sacrificing 25% attack speed or 20 spell pen for mercs. Riots design was that non tanks don't have enough options when its the tanks who need the options I think.
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Well, zerkers and tabi specifically are more efficient sources of stats than you can get anywhere else. So there is some incentive to pick up cloak and dagger or miracle (not reverie, my bad) if you're getting one of those two.
That fact that I'm not getting these more than once every 10 games at the most indicates the incentive isn't very strong though.
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On November 10 2011 05:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
Simple thought Ive had for a while now, but why the hell don't the other tenacity items have MORE tenacity than merc treads. The reason you still get mercs over other sources is because everyone has boots. Its a slot you are going to throw away in order to get the movespeed, and if you need tenacity, then thats the slot you want to get the bonus on. If you want, say ap, there are FAR more slot efficient items to get than spellblade.
So realistically, what incentive is there to ever NOT just get mercs?
Gold efficiency? Other stats unique to boots? Ninja Tabi are super cost and slot efficient against auto attackers, and dodge is an amazing stat all game long, Tabi are also really powerful when spec'd into nimbleness for the movespeed.
For gold efficiency, on a hero like Trynd you are trying to get your big items out ASAP but still need attack speed and tenacity, something like berserker greaves + cloak and dagger is pretty strong, for ~2400g you get move speed, 45% attack speed, 20% crit, and 35 tenacity.
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EPT
