EPTThe more you get things like drings, the worse your lategame is unless you're completely raping the enemy team.
[Patch 1.0.0.127: Graves] General Discussion - Page 42
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
The more you get things like drings, the worse your lategame is unless you're completely raping the enemy team. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:16 Mogwai wrote: if the game last past 30 minutes, you'll notice that g/10 supports are way ahead of comparably farmed non-g/10 supports. I dunno mangz, I just don't see the benefit of other items over g/10s on supports being enough to justify the fact that if the game is slow, I will completely fucking useless without g/10. Well, if you don't go for gold/10 items and buy doran stuff instead, you can get more agressive in teamfight and get more assists, that should help you to have as much gold as the g/10 support right ? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:32 Craton wrote: Games when your support has 0-1 GP5's you end up in the midgame with a useless support (who has something like boots 1, hog, dring at the 25 minute mark) or you end up with shit for map vision or oracles clearing. The more you get things like drings, the worse your lategame is unless you're completely raping the enemy team. The difference between 1 gp5 and 2 doesn't even make a difference till like after 20 minutes. If you got your HoG at 10 minutes, it doesn't even match DRing cost-effectiveness till 20 minutes, and by 25 minutes, the gp5 has only generated a surplus of 2 wards. If your support is that behind at 25 minutes with 1 gp5 instead of 2, it's very likely not because of their item choice. Shurelya's is kind of the exception, but honestly, you're never going to build DFG or Randuin's--so is it really worthwhile to get HoG/Kage as your 2nd gp5 instead of DRings at 15 minutes, and have them be worse until 25 minutes? | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
5 gold per 10 seconds, 30 per minute Assuming you don't sell Pstone (which you don't because you make Shurelya) it takes 800/30 = over 26 minutes to pay for itself. In order to afford a DRing after the PStone off the PStone itself it costs an extra 475/30 = over 15 minutes. That means opening PStone and allowing for ambient gold (removing any kills/assists/cs) leads to a whopping 41 minute game to equate to a single DRing off the extra gold off a single gold/10 item. On October 22 2011 04:35 Mogwai wrote: I mean... if you think 3 drings = shurelya's in terms of usefulness in a teamfight... lol, I guess there's really nowhere for this argument to go. 45 AP = ~20 more HP on a heal. 15% CDR means -3 seconds on the CD of a 350 HP heal. Even with 0% CDR, 15% CDR = 20.6 HP/second healing, and 45AP = 18.5 HP/second healing. Tack that up to 15% CDR from boots and 6% from masteries and now we're looking at 26.9 (reverie) vs. 23.125 (3 drings). Then add in team haste and well... I just don't even see it as close. I'll take the Reverie Soraka every single time and at 40 minutes, assuming the philo was at 15 minutes (stupidly late), it still paid for 750 of the 2200 gold needed for reverie, making the cost difference between the two builds only 25 gold. Reverie costs 2200. Three DRings costs 1425. Good comparisons are good. Also 45AP amounts to an extra 30 heal off the ult, and I'm going to assume you don't get to fire multiple ults in a single fight. Conversely if you want to equate cost performance, post Rings I either try to hit NLR or go for Codex or Kindle, both of which provide most of the final CDR I need for cheap, as in like, similar to the gold differential of reverie and three rings. | ||
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RetZ
Australia67 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:32 Craton wrote: Games when your support has 0-1 GP5's you end up in the midgame with a useless support (who has something like boots 1, hog, dring at the 25 minute mark) or you end up with shit for map vision or oracles clearing. The more you get things like drings, the worse your lategame is unless you're completely raping the enemy team. If your theoretical support only has boots, hog and a dring at 25min then a gp10 stacking support in the same situation is going to have boots, hog and half a philo. I don't think anyone is denying that gp10 will give you a stronger lategame, but you can get a much stronger mid/early game by not building so much gp10. Edit: And personally, I almost always get philo because I love reverie, however I almost never build HoG or any other gp10. I'd much rather a rather reverie, aegis or other strong item. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Sure if you don't make anything happen while you have such a huge advantage, you're gonna be behind. But you also suck in that case. | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:39 spinesheath wrote: Having a Shurelya's/Aegis/ANYTHING THAT ACTUALLY DOES SOMETHING instead of a bunch of useless gold/10 items for a duration of 10+ minutes is HUGE. Sure if you don't make anything happen while you have such a huge advantage, you're gonna be behind. But you also suck in that case. Translation: Don't buy gp5 and try to use that item advantage to get so ahead that you've won the game, otherwise lose the game because "you suck." | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:37 RetZ wrote: If your theoretical support only has boots, hog and a dring at 25min then a gp10 stacking support in the same situation is going to have boots, hog and half a philo. I don't think anyone is denying that gp10 will give you a stronger lategame, but you can get a much stronger mid/early game by not building so much gp10. Edit: And personally, I almost get philo because I love reverie, however I almost never build HoG or any other gp10. I'd much rather a rather reverie, aegis or other strong item. I'm fucking denying that it doesn't give you a better late-game. Edit: Hmm, that didn't come out the way I intended. I meant that in a ROAR I AM DENYING not the OMG IM DENYING IT tone. | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:35 -Zoda- wrote: Well, if you don't go for gold/10 items and buy doran stuff instead, you can get more agressive in teamfight and get more assists, that should help you to have as much gold as the g/10 support right ? That's pretty much the definition of putting all your eggs in one basket. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:42 Craton wrote: Everytime a support has gone 0-1 gp5 in a tournament game that wasn't over at lane phase, they've been hugely behind for the entire game. Why? Because if you try to ward/oracle the amount you should be with dick for gold, you're unable to ever get a new item. On October 22 2011 04:35 Southlight wrote: ? 5 gold per 10 seconds, 30 per minute Assuming you don't sell Pstone (which you don't because you make Shurelya) it takes 800/30 = over 26 minutes to pay for itself. In order to afford a DRing after the PStone off the PStone itself it costs an extra 475/30 = over 15 minutes. That means opening PStone and allowing for ambient gold (removing any kills/assists/cs) leads to a whopping 41 minute game to equate to a single DRing off the extra gold off a single gold/10 item. So are you arguing that 26 minutes after one guy gets a gold/10 the game snowballs out of control because the other guy had a single better item comparably over that timeframe? | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
You get marginally more hp and mp5 with 3 drings over just hog/philo. You trade AP on supports who have low ratios for a constant income, hp5, and the ability to build into the best support item in the game. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:35 Southlight wrote: ? 5 gold per 10 seconds, 30 per minute Assuming you don't sell Pstone (which you don't because you make Shurelya) it takes 800/30 = over 26 minutes to pay for itself. In order to afford a DRing after the PStone off the PStone itself it costs an extra 475/30 = over 15 minutes. That means opening PStone and allowing for ambient gold (removing any kills/assists/cs) leads to a whopping 41 minute game to equate to a single DRing off the extra gold off a single gold/10 item. Reverie costs 2200. Three DRings costs 1425. Good comparisons are good. Also 45AP amounts to an extra 30 heal off the ult, and I'm going to assume you don't get to fire multiple ults in a single fight. Conversely if you want to equate cost performance, post Rings I either try to hit NLR or go for Codex or Kindle, both of which provide most of the final CDR I need for cheap, as in like, similar to the gold differential of reverie and three rings. you mean that gold differential that already got explained by the 750 gold that the philostone earned you over those 25 minutes? right. k yea, w/e, keep living in magical utah land where philostone doesn't give you gold over time and we can thus just stack drings and still buy shit like fiendish codex while constantly warding the map and buying oracles. oh yea and still talk about buying a fucking deathcap. you still warding the whole map and keeping that oracles up? w/e w/e w/e, I'm done. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:40 UniversalSnip wrote: i'd be pretty surprised if yango was arguing you shouldn't build reverie... You can't really avoid building reverie I said this ages ago, that 1 gold/5 is pretty much always defensible because of how early you get it. You start with a Faerie Charm, and get Philo before 10 minutes. If you get an FB or something you might have it as early as 5. Pretty guaranteed to end up paying for itself, and Reverie is good. The 2nd gp5 is where it gets iffy. On October 22 2011 04:42 Craton wrote: Everytime a support has gone 0-1 gp5 in a tournament game that wasn't over at lane phase, they've been hugely behind for the entire game. For like the 4th time, this is because supports don't know to get a little farm when they need it to fill the gap between their ward money and their opponents'. Getting 1 creep wave covers 5 minutes worth of gold/5 generation. That money isn't even likely to turn into an item on one of your carries immediately, and I'm pretty sure that being able to immediately have money for 2 more wards is worth the time it takes you to get 6 creeps. Especially when pretty much every support has a skill that's good for that that they level second. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:44 Craton wrote: Stop pretending like the items have no valuable besides their gp5 component. So now we're comparing cost efficiency of items then? Wait, wait, I can do this. 475: +15 ability power +100 health +5 mana regeneration 800: +18 health regeneration +8 mana regeneration 825: +250 health You're right. They're so much more cost-efficient. How could I have missed this obvious fact. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
You're right. They're so much more cost-efficient. How could I have missed this obvious fact. Probably because you're blinded by arrogance. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:46 Southlight wrote: So now we're comparing cost efficiency of items then? Wait, wait, I can do this. 475: +15 ability power +100 health +5 mana regeneration 800: +18 health regeneration +8 mana regeneration 825: +250 health You're right. They're so much more cost-efficient. How could I have missed this obvious fact. all your cost math though is just fucking hand waving and acting like a philostone was wasted money until it pays for itself via the gold/10 component, which is stupid and you should know that :p. | ||
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