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On October 22 2011 00:22 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 16:44 bobbob wrote:
Thing is that Jarman's ult has slightly longer range than flash. Most of the time in a fight the moment I see a half health hero flash out, I'm trying to end up on top of them. Same concept applies to jungle ganks. Jarman's ult is a utility skill more than anything else, some teamfights you won't even cast it. I've actually debated not picking it up at level 11 several times, I might try without it when I am going for a full tank build, as the % armor reduction might be worth more than the <100 damage extra. That being said, it's another flash to go in, you can cancel it almost immediately after you put it up, and if you catch many people, it forces a lot of flashes if they are out of position/retreating. Jarman's ult is crazy, you're stupid for even thinking of not getting it at 6.
Not at 6, at 11, as you get the same mana cost for +100 damage. Obviously it's great at 6, but is 100 damage worth it? I usually think so, but at times I have my doubts. Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 16:44 bobbob wrote:My biggest issue with Jarvan is that he has a lot of trouble with defensive play. His skill set makes him want to be in the middle of the other team, which is quite hard to do when they are trying to push a tower and it's a 3v4 in their favor. IMO his ult is really good when used right (hello 3.5 second snare), but the chances for you to use it right are quite rare. My complaint about Jarvan's ult is when you die midair or just as you come down, you have your ult on CD, and it never happened. Quite annoying. They also fixed the bug where if you went to your standard almost immediately after ulting it put up a second ring.  All Jarvan really needs is a slightly thicker ring so that the short range skills can't get over it (cait net, nid pounce, other ones) Flashing out is IMO okay, skills that can force flashes are fairly strong. Your mindset is too manly. Anyone can peel so long as they have the will to peel. I'll post my streamed games from last night and you can watch as I build pure fucking DPS and then not even bother diving the other team so that I can peel for my carry. I just am pissed that flash-dodging has been re-introduced with Jarman's ult. If they flash while you're midair, you don't do damage, the wall happens where they started and best of all, you can't cancel the fucking wall.
Did I miss some patch note, or can't you still cancel the wall by pressing R again after casting it? It slows you up a bit still, but would you really catch them if they flashed anyway? Missing the damage does suck though.
Yes, Jarvan can peel, and he can clear creep waves without moving to his standard, but overall when he peels without using his w he will end up in the other team. I guess a lot of tanks have this issue, though.
Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 16:44 bobbob wrote:
Jarvan seems to be able to outlane most heroes except for the ultra sustain heroes (Cho, Ire). He ties with Akali and Talon. He loses to Singed once Singed gets RoA, but seems to beat most other solo top champs. Perhaps it's just my build that loses to some of the solo top heroes. J4 crushes Cho and Irelia. He only loses to real sustainers like WW and Udyr and maybe a properly specced Yorrick. He also crushes Akali and Talon, very easily. He also seems to destroy the ever loving shit out of AP heroes, so you can always just stick him mid and fuckstart Kass's face and send some boring ass AP Tank like Galio or Swian top to fuck with their high sustain Melee.
A good Cho will just straight up farm. None of this 'hit the Jarvan with a knockup' That being said, 90% of Cho players are bad. Ire you have an advantage till about level 9. After that I can't seem to deal with the harassment combo+sustain she puts out, as she deals more damage than you for the duration of the hiten style, and then just heals your combo back by autoing minions. So I have beaten out many Cho players, but I don't consider them any good as they were burning tons of mana trying to harass me out and sucking at it. Akali is definately easy to outfarm, but he is vulnerable to ganks as Akali can outdo Jarvan when he has to run away, whereas Akali can put down a shroud and be fine. Talon has slightly more burst than Jarvan post 6, but you can outregen him.
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I don't mind the support taking some cs early so he can get a gp5.
I agree that gp5 is way overvalued... anybody who's actually going to be actively fighting at close range probably shouldn't get them (taric for example). they're good in lane if neither of you can really kill the other one. Kage pick and avarice blade particularly I don't think you should ever really buy. The benefits of greater stats you would get from just building something else are more than worth the loss of the gp5 on those two.
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On October 22 2011 03:52 bobbob wrote:
Not at 6, at 11, as you get the same mana cost for +100 damage. Obviously it's great at 6, but is 100 damage worth it? I usually think so, but at times I have my doubts.
it's 125 damage for leveling the ult vs. 40 damage and 4/8% AS/Armor for leveling E. Still a no brainer.
On October 22 2011 03:52 bobbob wrote:
Did I miss some patch note, or can't you still cancel the wall by pressing R again after casting it? It slows you up a bit still, but would you really catch them if they flashed anyway? Missing the damage does suck though.
Yes, Jarvan can peel, and he can clear creep waves without moving to his standard, but overall when he peels without using his w he will end up in the other team. I guess a lot of tanks have this issue, though.
His R has this bug now where you jump on the opponent, they flash while you're midair, you lane where they were, do no damage, and can't cancel the ult wall. This was introduced when they "fixed" the ult following flash, which was how it should be anyway. Sigh.
As for peeling, get more creative. Save your Q and E until after initiation and just rush down the opposing carries on foot. Then E -> Q backwards to peel for your carries, after which you can W to further peel for them and after all the flashes are out, you can wall off the assassins from your carries with your ult (they typically try to flash after you give your carry some space via E -> Q -> W). Jarman has all the tools needed to peel, it's all about how you choose to use them.
On October 22 2011 03:52 bobbob wrote:
A good Cho will just straight up farm. None of this 'hit the Jarvan with a knockup' That being said, 90% of Cho players are bad. Ire you have an advantage till about level 9. After that I can't seem to deal with the harassment combo+sustain she puts out, as she deals more damage than you for the duration of the hiten style, and then just heals your combo back by autoing minions. So I have beaten out many Cho players, but I don't consider them any good as they were burning tons of mana trying to harass me out and sucking at it. Akali is definately easy to outfarm, but he is vulnerable to ganks as Akali can outdo Jarvan when he has to run away, whereas Akali can put down a shroud and be fine. Talon has slightly more burst than Jarvan post 6, but you can outregen him.
Cho can't farm without taking a buttload of damage for the early levels, so Jarman can just boss him until Cho gets to freefarm mode. Not a whole lot anyone can do once Cho gets there, but until then, J4 can get an advantage and J4 is probably the best at transitioning from early PvP aggression to free farming a lane with the nature of his AoE nuke combo. Irelia gives you like, 8 levels to abuse her, which I find is enough to get far enough ahead to keep abusing her, but assuming she makes it to 9 not being too far behind, then yea, sure, she wins. But w/e, then you just clear creep and deal with it. The thing with Jarman is that when you get outplayed or the jungle fucks over your lane, it's just sorta like, w/e, you can audible into just mauling creep waves and getting your CS from afar anyway, so it's not as bad as when other characters get ruined in lane. Akali does way less damage than you too and due to the nature of most akali specs, you can typically just fuck her whole life up and then get far enough ahead to 100% HP -> death combo her. Talon's burst is pathetic next to Jarman's because Jarman gets a fuckton of free armor. Dunno wtf you're talking about regen for. Jarman #1, still best char ever.
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On October 22 2011 03:53 UniversalSnip wrote:
I don't mind the support taking some cs early so he can get a gp5.
I agree that gp5 is way overvalued... anybody who's actually going to be actively fighting at close range probably shouldn't get them (taric for example). they're good in lane if neither of you can really kill the other one. Kage pick and avarice blade particularly I don't think you should ever really buy. The benefits of greater stats you would get from just building something else are more than worth the loss of the gp5 on those two.
except you build them into sth ofc.
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Support should always have gp5, regardless of melee or ranged. Unless you're dominating the enemy team so hard that you constantly have tons of spare gold to buy oracles, wards, and build up your own stats (in which case it doesn't matter because you win already), then you're going to end up being weaker than paper because you can barely afford wards, or you're not going to have the wards/oracles your team needs.
This was illustrated several times over the last few tournaments, as well.
Philo and Hog are literally the perfect items for supports. All supports need regen, philo can build into shurelya's which can turn a fight by itself, and all support need hp. Kage's is more situational, as it's sometimes worth it and sometimes worth skipping.
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On October 22 2011 04:06 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 03:53 UniversalSnip wrote:
I don't mind the support taking some cs early so he can get a gp5.
I agree that gp5 is way overvalued... anybody who's actually going to be actively fighting at close range probably shouldn't get them (taric for example). they're good in lane if neither of you can really kill the other one. Kage pick and avarice blade particularly I don't think you should ever really buy. The benefits of greater stats you would get from just building something else are more than worth the loss of the gp5 on those two. except you build them into sth ofc.
build half a brutalizer instead of an avarice, etc
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United States47024 Posts
On October 22 2011 03:52 bobbob wrote:
A good Cho will just straight up farm. None of this 'hit the Jarvan with a knockup' That being said, 90% of Cho players are bad. Ire you have an advantage till about level 9. After that I can't seem to deal with the harassment combo+sustain she puts out, as she deals more damage than you for the duration of the hiten style, and then just heals your combo back by autoing minions. So I have beaten out many Cho players, but I don't consider them any good as they were burning tons of mana trying to harass me out and sucking at it. Akali is definately easy to outfarm, but he is vulnerable to ganks as Akali can outdo Jarvan when he has to run away, whereas Akali can put down a shroud and be fine. Talon has slightly more burst than Jarvan post 6, but you can outregen him.
Isn't trading free-farm between Cho and Jarvan favorable for Jarvan? Free-farm on Jarvan feels way more dangerous than free-farm on Cho imo.
On October 22 2011 04:07 Craton wrote:
Support should always have gp5, regardless of melee or ranged. Unless you're dominating the enemy team so hard that you constantly have tons of spare gold to buy oracles, wards, and build up your own stats (in which case it doesn't matter because you win already), then you're going to end up being weaker than paper because you can barely afford wards, or you're not going to have the wards/oracles your team needs.
This was illustrated several times over the last few tournaments, as well.
Philo and Hog are literally the perfect items for supports. All supports need regen, philo can build into shurelya's which can turn a fight by itself, and all support need hp. Kage's is more situational, as it's sometimes worth it and sometimes worth skipping.
It takes on the order of like 10 minutes for gold/5 items to match the cost-effectiveness of Doran's items (HoG/Kage break even with the plain stat counterparts at 5-7 minutes, and Doran's are significantly more cost-effective than the plain stat items). Personally I find the "supports need gp5 for ward money" argument to be extremely lacking given how long it takes for gp5 to pay for itself. Seems better to get Doran's + 5 wards now, rather than get a Philo/HoG, and slowly earn those 5 wards over the period of 10 minutes. They start generating surplus gold after that, but I think 10 minutes is plenty of time to turn the immediate spendable gold into a real advantage.
Compare:
2x Doran's Ring + 9 Wards
200 HP
30 AP
10 mp5
vs.
HoG + Philo
250 HP
18 hp5
8 mp5
1 gold/sec gold gain
You get better stats from the Doran's Rings, and it takes 11+ minutes for the gold gain to generate 9 wards. Again, the gold/5 will start generating surplus after that, but 11 minutes is a really fucking long time for you to turn your immediate benefits into further advantage.
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if the game last past 30 minutes, you'll notice that g/10 supports are way ahead of comparably farmed non-g/10 supports. I dunno mangz, I just don't see the benefit of other items over g/10s on supports being enough to justify the fact that if the game is slow, I will completely fucking useless without g/10.
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A Soraka with DRing stack and AP is far from useless :<
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On October 22 2011 04:18 Southlight wrote:
A Soraka with DRing stack and AP is far from useless :<
if your team is losing fights, you won't be able to buy wards/oracles.
EDIT: which in turn makes turning the game around WAY fucking harder.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:19 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 04:18 Southlight wrote:
A Soraka with DRing stack and AP is far from useless :< if your team is losing fights, you won't be able to buy wards/oracles. EDIT: which in turn makes turning the game around WAY fucking harder.
So clean up like 15 creeps from a pushed wave and then buy oracles/wards?
As I said earlier, half the reason people feel gold/5 income is necessary is because they feel it's heresy for supports to get kills/CS.
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United States37500 Posts
It is heresy to take CS. Duh...
I don't get the gp/10 hate. It's great~
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United States47024 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:22 NeoIllusions wrote:
It is heresy to take CS. Duh...
I don't get the gp/10 hate. It's great~
Not really hate, just feel that it's hardly necessary or even correct for supports to buy gp5 100% of the time. Like, especially when your team's game-plan is more early-midgame centered, buying gold/5 with the intent of having it pan out 25-30 minutes into the game doesn't feel like it makes sense at all.
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Philo stone is hard to skip because it builds into shurelyas, but heart of gold instead of 2 Drings is very very iffy.
Generally speaking, as support I expect myself to cycle through 3 wards every 3 minutes.
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On October 22 2011 04:19 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 04:18 Southlight wrote:
A Soraka with DRing stack and AP is far from useless :< if your team is losing fights, you won't be able to buy wards/oracles. EDIT: which in turn makes turning the game around WAY fucking harder.
If your team is losing fights, you just won't have as many DRings. And really, I've noticed that if you actually look at the gold earned chart at the end of a long game, and then substract the actual cost of the gold items, they still don't look significantly different, at the cost of severe early-mid-game effect impediment. This is the #1 reason why most support Tarics blow chunks after 15 minutes, because they invest in retarded gold/10 items and are worthless. They unfortunately whacked Soraka's W ratio so it's not as nifty but even level 1 Q + Infuse does crazy damage with minimal AP.
40 minutes into a game a support with a gold/10 item that's been upgraded to like Shurelya still has less full combat use than a support with three DRings (half the cost of Shurelya). That's pretty nasty IMO.
Obviously this differs from hero to hero, which is something most wannabe supports don't take into account because they don't actually know what's going on. Derp.
Edit:
I get gold/10 on Janna just because there's no real better thing to get.
On Sona I have a tendency to get Tears -> Archangel for AP for better heals. Although I do like PStone on her anyways.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:24 Juicyfruit wrote:
Philo stone is hard to skip because it builds into shurelyas, but heart of gold instead of 2 Drings is very very iffy.
This is the other thing--the 2nd gold/5 item gets bought significantly later than the first one. You get philo, boots, and a bunch of wards, and you're looking at that 2nd gp5 item being pretty late on in the game. The first gp5 item you buy is almost guaranteed to pay for itself, but if you're buying HoG at 15-20 minutes, and it breaks even with the DRings you could have gotten at 25-30, its pretty questionable whether it's worth it.
And following from that, buying a 3rd gp5 item makes almost no sense at all unless you're lucky enough to see enough kill/global gold income to get all 3 of them before 15 minutes.
EDIT: From the same standpoint, gold/5 is LESS defensible when your team is losing. Losing the game = less gold income = later gold/5 items. 2nd gold/5 at 10 minutes when you're winning is amazing. 2nd gold/5 at 20 minutes, when your team hasn't gotten any towers or Dragon's is pretty terrible, because if you buy a HoG, you have the risk of straight-up losing the game before it can pay for itself.
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United States37500 Posts
On October 22 2011 04:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 04:22 NeoIllusions wrote:
It is heresy to take CS. Duh...
I don't get the gp/10 hate. It's great~ Not really hate, just feel that it's hardly necessary or even correct for supports to buy gp5 100% of the time. Like, especially when your team's game-plan is more early-midgame centered, buying gold/5 with the intent of having it pan out 25-30 minutes into the game doesn't feel like it makes sense at all.
Well, if you are going for a early-mid game centric team, then sure, gp10 might not seem worth it. But seriously, how often do you build a team comp that doesn't go beyond 30 min...
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I think the only quints supports should consider are gp10 items.
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On October 22 2011 04:27 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 04:24 TheYango wrote:On October 22 2011 04:22 NeoIllusions wrote:
It is heresy to take CS. Duh...
I don't get the gp/10 hate. It's great~ Not really hate, just feel that it's hardly necessary or even correct for supports to buy gp5 100% of the time. Like, especially when your team's game-plan is more early-midgame centered, buying gold/5 with the intent of having it pan out 25-30 minutes into the game doesn't feel like it makes sense at all. Well, if you are going for a early-mid game centric team, then sure, gp10 might not seem worth it. But seriously, how often do you build a team comp that doesn't go beyond 30 min...
Every time the enemy FP nasus in solo q.
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On October 22 2011 04:29 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I think the only quints supports should consider are gp10 items.
puregoldenboy-style pure AP Soraka <--
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EPT
