EPTThe other thing that I don't understand is this obsession that the support HAS to be the one getting Oracle's. Why would you put Oracle's on the champ that has the least survivability itemization and hence is actually very likely to die in fights? IIRC getting Gem on someone like ES or CM was a terrible idea in DotA--the most likely people to get it were tanky gankers/semi-carries that got farm early-midgame, but scaled off late-game and could hence afford an open slot for Gem. If anything, the fact that Oracle's doesn't take a needed item slot means that even your late-game carry bruiser from top lane should even consider getting it.
[Patch 1.0.0.127: Graves] General Discussion - Page 40
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The other thing that I don't understand is this obsession that the support HAS to be the one getting Oracle's. Why would you put Oracle's on the champ that has the least survivability itemization and hence is actually very likely to die in fights? IIRC getting Gem on someone like ES or CM was a terrible idea in DotA--the most likely people to get it were tanky gankers/semi-carries that got farm early-midgame, but scaled off late-game and could hence afford an open slot for Gem. If anything, the fact that Oracle's doesn't take a needed item slot means that even your late-game carry bruiser from top lane should even consider getting it. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On October 22 2011 02:48 TheYango wrote: Why would you put Oracle's on the champ that has the least survivability itemization and hence is actually very likely to die in fights? I actually find that deaths as support mean I had a play error :p Supports should almost never die. The only support that routinely dies I think is Taric, but he's a nuker anyways. Edit: Well, also if your team just gets aced. The only other acceptable form of death is when it's down to you and carry and you go ahead and try to draw fire to buy just a little bit of time. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On October 22 2011 02:48 Southlight wrote: As currently a Soraka main, if I play my cards right I can go entire games without dying and without even being HIT during team fights. Meanwhile along with wards I slowly build up AP and CDR and affect fights with my ridiculous 125 armor buff. Unfortunately I don't play perfect, especially with my complete and utter lack of interest in SR at the moment and the resulting rust when I do sometimes play. That means when I buy an Oracle, it will last a long time. Otherwise we are getting our ass kicked and there's not a whole lot to do about it. You seem to believe that we're spitting wards all over the map. Quite untrue, we place a high amount of wards but they're placed in such locations that it completely locks down the other team for at least half the map. You can see one of my older threads about game design problems on SR for my complaints about how wards are too strong. I dont believe that. I just wanted to give a different view on the matter of "actual" supporting. Not buying wards before 3* gp10 items is ofc ridiculous. But it's just as (mb a little less) ridiculous to spam wards and oracles just to feel good about yourself. Gonna search for some of the posts you made about wards, we might have a similar view on this matter. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Wards OP. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Soraka can get Oracles really safely. There's not much of a reason for Soraka to be close to an enemy. Sona and Janna are on roughly the same level of safety, but with their ultimates, Janna's QW and Sona's E-Passive you sometimes want to go in much further than Soraka. You should consider carefully whether you buy an Oracles or stick to pink wards for a while. Alistar has his ulti to stay alive, so he is kinda safe. Taric just sucks. Getting Oracles on someone like (tank) Cho or Singed is often a better idea because those champs are likely to have way more money anyways, they are MUCH harder to kill (you don't want to make it easy for the enemy to kill off 400 gold), and often the enemy could really use some incentives to focus those champs a bit more. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Astarwulf
United States63 Posts
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Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On October 22 2011 02:48 TheYango wrote: The thing about gp5 is that people really overrate the gold generation. For a long time it's just filling the cost-effectiveness hole where it has to catch up to Doran's items. Not to mention a bunch of this comes out of the attitude that supports absolutely cannot touch any laner's farm, despite the fact that the support taking 2 creeps bottom to get an extra ward is likely to pay for itself just because of how much further out the AD carry can play. The other thing that I don't understand is this obsession that the support HAS to be the one getting Oracle's. Why would you put Oracle's on the champ that has the least survivability itemization and hence is actually very likely to die in fights? IIRC getting Gem on someone like ES or CM was a terrible idea in DotA--the most likely people to get it were tanky gankers/semi-carries that got farm early-midgame, but scaled off late-game and could hence afford an open slot for Gem. If anything, the fact that Oracle's doesn't take a needed item slot means that even your late-game carry bruiser from top lane should even consider getting it. well, the reason ppl dont get gem on support in dota is further compounded by the fact that it drops, meaning that some1 dying with it is not only bad for them, its also good for the enemy, which kinda skews the risk/reward balance and makes it much more scary that you could potentially be giving them a 700g item oracles on support is ok imo, tho certainly support doesnt have to be the go-to oracle carrier or even the only carrier. | ||
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On October 22 2011 03:41 Mogwai wrote: at the height of Nunu's jungle dominance, it was really popular to get oracles on him and just fuck with the opposing ward presence all over the map while consuming a random jungle creep with every consume CD. Back when jungle was mostly like Amumu WW Rammus Olaf it was popular to get Oracles early on WW too :< | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
Also the best solution to OP wards is the following: Riot should invent 1-2 new wriggles style items (mb one that is tanky and one that has AP or sth) that give you a ward every 3s. Then delete green wards and make pink wards a bunch more expensive. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On October 22 2011 03:46 Southlight wrote: Back when jungle was mostly like Amumu WW Rammus Olaf it was popular to get Oracles early on WW too :< I remember back in the Eve resurgance, I was playing a game vs. an Eve with WW once. I opened Oracles + 2 pots. Eve facechecked my blue brush, I got first blood, backed for longsword, never lost the oracles all game, ggnore. | ||
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
On October 22 2011 02:48 TheYango wrote: The thing about gp5 is that people really overrate the gold generation. For a long time it's just filling the cost-effectiveness hole where it has to catch up to Doran's items. Not to mention a bunch of this comes out of the attitude that supports absolutely cannot touch any laner's farm, despite the fact that the support taking 2 creeps bottom to get an extra ward is likely to pay for itself just because of how much further out the AD carry can play. The other thing that I don't understand is this obsession that the support HAS to be the one getting Oracle's. Why would you put Oracle's on the champ that has the least survivability itemization and hence is actually very likely to die in fights? IIRC getting Gem on someone like ES or CM was a terrible idea in DotA--the most likely people to get it were tanky gankers/semi-carries that got farm early-midgame, but scaled off late-game and could hence afford an open slot for Gem. If anything, the fact that Oracle's doesn't take a needed item slot means that even your late-game carry bruiser from top lane should even consider getting it. Why bother giving the support two creeps when the support can just be poor and buy wards, allowing the carry to still be able to be out further. Having a heart of gold increases survivability, and a philo stone gives awesome sustainability, so it's not like the items stats are useless other than the gp5. Basically the gp5 gives the support a free ward every 38 seconds, which allows them to use assist and the few cs gold they get on more survivability. Basically what the support does is gives the carry their money by spending on wards and not getting ANY cs. Why would it be the other way around? Supports dont need money, carries do. And for the oracle discussion supports shouldn't die unless it is to save their carry, and as janna that is rare since you have your ult to save your carry. Ali, and Taric get tanky so oracle goes well on them later on. I don't play soraka much but sona is also very sustainable with her ms buff and ult to protect the carry. | ||
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