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On October 15 2011 09:55 Qualm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 07:27 Two_DoWn wrote:On October 15 2011 06:57 Ryuu314 wrote:I forgot to mention brand. Red_'s argument is mostly around "Q es skillshot and skillshots make for shitty laning." Brand was considered very meh on release since all his shit was skillshots. Now he's top tier AP champ with 0 buffs. Only bug fixes and nerfs in his patch history. On October 15 2011 06:56 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:54 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:49 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:46 Requizen wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. Also Cassiopeia, although yes, she got small buffs after her release, but like Lee Sin, even after her buffs, she was considered shit until like a month ago. Maokai can also make that list seeing how his last meaningful buff was in April, but people haven't been playing him or even considering him until like this summer. That's just how it is sometimes, though. People just jump on whatever bandwagon they hear, and it sticks. There are a lot of champs that I'm sure are rather competitive and probably fucking awesome, but no one plays because a pro said they were crap at release or because they weren't used at a tournament and fell out of FotM. I think this is like a comforting myth people like to believe. Like... that happens... but very rarely. 95% of the time when champs rise or fall in popularity it's straight up it's because of actual balance changes or new strategies to promote/demote them. On October 15 2011 06:48 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two. A better example I think would be jax. Irelia got slight range buffs and a 10 .damage increase on her ulti, but wasn't considered OP until 2-3 patches after those buffs. I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Ori and Jarvan were good and solid, but not OP on release. I remember Elementz saying Ori was well-designed and balanced in his little tier list thing. If Riven got buffed I don't remember and it's not in the wiki. The irelia buffs fixed her only weaknesses, they were very significant. I dunno what elementz said, doesn't really figure into my thinking. I'd swear riven got changed. Although she's not really relevant since I think we still have no idea how good she is. The Irelia buffs were 50 range increase on her Q and E. That's significant? Very! lol Alright if you say so :O Brand was considered very good at release, and even got the bads on the forums to claim he was op. And 50 range on a cap closer and a stun is a very big deal. Not true. Brand was never played at ALL on NA servers until Europeans started spamming games with him in every tournament.
Theres a difference, though, between not being played and not considered good. Everyone knew Yorick was hella strong basically from release, and still no teams played him at all until very recently. Perhaps in part because they got no practice with him since he was permabanned in solo-queue. I dont know if this is the case for brand or not though.
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Yiruru on Rain man stream playing veigar~!
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On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
My argument is that laning is too important in this game for a champ like Xerath, who is awful at laning, to be good. You can't 'siege out of sight' and harass people in lane phase, first because it lasts 8 seconds on a 20second cooldown at level 1, and second because... it's just not feasible. You will self zone yourself trying to do that, and they will be more than happy to take xp and last hits while you derp around hoping to land 80 damage line shots that push the lane further in their favor.
This is all wrong. You can easily push a lane into the tower and then rain shit down on them from the middle of the lane thereby zoning them from CS or making them eat damage. Further, you can use the little down ramp things toward grass to get free shots out of their vision. In any gank on a sidelane, you can hit from out of range. Further, even without using W you have some of the largest spell ranges of any mage.
Cass, Kass, Karth, Brand, Malz, and Zil will all ABSOLUTELY SHIT ON HIM, all day every day, because each of them has a way to say 'fuck you' to his E, limited by it's range, and even to his Q, which though it has as high or higher range than all of them, is limited by an actual cast time that leaves him stationary, which effectively reduces the range(if you cast at actual max range, they run 1 pixel back and outrange it, while their skills don't have that liability).
Nope. W>E/Q/R = greater range than every spell Cass, Malz, Brand, Zil, and Kass have. Karthus longest range spell (wall) is only equal to the range of Xerath's shortest range spell. Blue buff zil can probably dodge Q thanks to spammable haste, but blue buff Xerath can farm from well out of harass range. You want to run up and cast something on Xerath? Too bad, you're eating a stun in the face.
I'm not just making random observations on a few Xerath games. I played nothing but him for like 3 straight days, and have still put in a few games a night on him since, on both SR and Dom(where he is a ton stronger, undeniable). His SR game is very limited, he is in no way 'unviable' but this conversation is about him being 'OP' and 'soon to be #1 ban' which is just flat out wrong.
You'll forgive me if I don't use your ability to play a champ as the basis for its strength.
Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%.
And yet, players on the top teams are saying the opposite.
Few of the actual top players have had the opportunity to show everyone just how broken Xerath is because of how packed the tournament schedule has been since his release. Just wait.
By the way, people thought Brand was underpowered at release.
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United States33495 Posts
picked up an extra riot nasus skin at iem, who wants it  ?
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On October 15 2011 11:38 Waxangel wrote:picked up an extra riot nasus skin at iem, who wants it ?
we all do :D :D
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On October 15 2011 11:05 Craton wrote:
This is all wrong. You can easily push a lane into the tower and then rain shit down on them from the middle of the lane thereby zoning them from CS or making them eat damage. Further, you can use the little down ramp things toward grass to get free shots out of their vision. In any gank on a sidelane, you can hit from out of range. Further, even without using W you have some of the largest spell ranges of any mage.
It takes a lot of Qs to clear a wave, you're not keeping that kind of pushing up. If you're only using it to 'last hit' you're going to be in this half assed state where you're kind of pushing but not pushing really hard into tower either. When you get to their tower 1300 range puts you a little past halfway through mid lane to hit where a ranged champ will be last hitting from, you're going to be so open for a jungle gank. This is all based on you using W apparently all the time at a low level, which isn't possible at all. It's also based on the mage you're laning against not being able to clear the wave either, which many of them do much better(until later when Xerath becomes the fucking king of it, but that's late game with high AP).
Nope. W>E/Q/R = greater range than every spell Cass, Malz, Brand, Zil, and Kass have. Karthus longest range spell (wall) is only equal to the range of Xerath's shortest range spell. Blue buff zil can probably dodge Q thanks to spammable haste, but blue buff Xerath can farm from well out of harass range. You want to run up and cast something on Xerath? Too bad, you're eating a stun in the face.
Again, reliance on W. Not feasible for a sustained gameplan in lane. You have to approach the lane to get last hits at some point. E has a pretty substantial mana cost, on top of all of this Q pushing you're doing. Even if you land the combo, the total damage is sub 150 at lvl 2, and his Q damage scales pretty badly(ends at 235), while you're probably not leveling E to add to that because you need his W cooldown reduced, like fucking yesterday. If you do choose to level E you can trade a bit better, but they can zone the fuck out of you while chains is on cooldown, god forbid they didn't just initiate a trade while your W is down and they outrange the E in the first place.
It is not possible to just stay beyond 900 range all game hiding behind his Q, you don't get anything done. 1300 range isn't as godlike long as people make it out to be either(kind of pointed this out above), it is well within 1 screen if people don't play constantly centered on their champion.
I'm not saying he's 'weak'(I may have said mediocre, probably a bit strong, even for what I consider him), but I do think he's kind of 'another AP' and not 'broken as fuck.' I just don't see it. There's a lot more detail I just can't think of how to word on his laning. It just doesn't work in a theorycraft bottle like you'd want it to with his range, the cooldowns and damage and mana costs just don't mesh to make him 'broken.' He can dominate a game just like any other 'viable' champ can. Doesn't mean I expect to see him permaban status at w/e the next big tourney is(MLG Prov?)
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Making a separate post for this because it's somewhat of a separate thought: If DotA style turtle comps(I don't even mean passive play in general like we see already, but hardcore, you can't push on us, we will dictate when the game really gets going style comps) somehow rise up(I'm not sure how they can with dragon+baron+jungle buffs, but w/e) then Xerath would become a fucking god, because he would simultaneously be the absolute best creep wave clearer ever in a later game scenario, along with the sickest poke champ the game has ever seen. His terrible early game wouldn't matter as much if you know for sure you're in for an hour long affair.
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i think xerath is viable
a tad bit on the strong side
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On October 15 2011 11:38 Waxangel wrote:picked up an extra riot nasus skin at iem, who wants it ?
I'll teach you my pro strats in exchange for that code. They involve things like choosing Smite when you are jungling.
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idea: liquidlol betting system. You can bet points and then two months later we vote to see who turned out to be right.
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On October 15 2011 11:44 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 11:05 Craton wrote:
This is all wrong. You can easily push a lane into the tower and then rain shit down on them from the middle of the lane thereby zoning them from CS or making them eat damage. Further, you can use the little down ramp things toward grass to get free shots out of their vision. In any gank on a sidelane, you can hit from out of range. Further, even without using W you have some of the largest spell ranges of any mage. It takes a lot of Qs to clear a wave, you're not keeping that kind of pushing up. If you're only using it to 'last hit' you're going to be in this half assed state where you're kind of pushing but not pushing really hard into tower either. When you get to their tower 1300 range puts you a little past halfway through mid lane to hit where a ranged champ will be last hitting from, you're going to be so open for a jungle gank. This is all based on you using W apparently all the time at a low level, which isn't possible at all. It's also based on the mage you're laning against not being able to clear the wave either, which many of them do much better(until later when Xerath becomes the fucking king of it, but that's late game with high AP).
Level 5 and beyond it takes 2 Qs to clear a wave with AP runes and doran stack. That's "a lot"?
Granted, for Xerath is very mana intensive and will want to hog blue, but you can say the same about Zil and he's top tier AP.
Also, not leveling W past 1 and saving it for later is quite viable and doesn't hurt you as much as you make it out to seem; that just means you have to be smarter about using your W.
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On October 15 2011 11:38 Waxangel wrote:picked up an extra riot nasus skin at iem, who wants it ?
Dude, raffle it, im sure a lot of people wants it (Such as myself) :D I got nothing to offer you sadly so no equivilent trade.
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On October 15 2011 10:07 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 09:55 Qualm wrote:On October 15 2011 07:27 Two_DoWn wrote:On October 15 2011 06:57 Ryuu314 wrote:I forgot to mention brand. Red_'s argument is mostly around "Q es skillshot and skillshots make for shitty laning." Brand was considered very meh on release since all his shit was skillshots. Now he's top tier AP champ with 0 buffs. Only bug fixes and nerfs in his patch history. On October 15 2011 06:56 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:54 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:49 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:46 Requizen wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. Also Cassiopeia, although yes, she got small buffs after her release, but like Lee Sin, even after her buffs, she was considered shit until like a month ago. Maokai can also make that list seeing how his last meaningful buff was in April, but people haven't been playing him or even considering him until like this summer. That's just how it is sometimes, though. People just jump on whatever bandwagon they hear, and it sticks. There are a lot of champs that I'm sure are rather competitive and probably fucking awesome, but no one plays because a pro said they were crap at release or because they weren't used at a tournament and fell out of FotM. I think this is like a comforting myth people like to believe. Like... that happens... but very rarely. 95% of the time when champs rise or fall in popularity it's straight up it's because of actual balance changes or new strategies to promote/demote them. On October 15 2011 06:48 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:
[quote]
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them.
Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two. A better example I think would be jax. Irelia got slight range buffs and a 10 .damage increase on her ulti, but wasn't considered OP until 2-3 patches after those buffs. I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Ori and Jarvan were good and solid, but not OP on release. I remember Elementz saying Ori was well-designed and balanced in his little tier list thing. If Riven got buffed I don't remember and it's not in the wiki. The irelia buffs fixed her only weaknesses, they were very significant. I dunno what elementz said, doesn't really figure into my thinking. I'd swear riven got changed. Although she's not really relevant since I think we still have no idea how good she is. The Irelia buffs were 50 range increase on her Q and E. That's significant? Very! lol Alright if you say so :O Brand was considered very good at release, and even got the bads on the forums to claim he was op. And 50 range on a cap closer and a stun is a very big deal. Not true. Brand was never played at ALL on NA servers until Europeans started spamming games with him in every tournament. Theres a difference, though, between not being played and not considered good. Everyone knew Yorick was hella strong basically from release, and still no teams played him at all until very recently. Perhaps in part because they got no practice with him since he was permabanned in solo-queue. I dont know if this is the case for brand or not though.
Everyone knew he was good in lane, but for some reason people thought he was bad late-game (which he is not because of all his AoE).
On October 15 2011 11:44 red_ wrote:
It takes a lot of Qs to clear a wave, you're not keeping that kind of pushing up. If you're only using it to 'last hit' you're going to be in this half assed state where you're kind of pushing but not pushing really hard into tower either. When you get to their tower 1300 range puts you a little past halfway through mid lane to hit where a ranged champ will be last hitting from, you're going to be so open for a jungle gank. This is all based on you using W apparently all the time at a low level, which isn't possible at all. It's also based on the mage you're laning against not being able to clear the wave either, which many of them do much better(until later when Xerath becomes the fucking king of it, but that's late game with high AP).
You wont be open to jungle ganks if you ward one side of the river and hug it (especially with W MS buff), and at level 7 you can clear the wave in two Qs quite easily. I'm not sure what exactly makes you think you can't use W at low level. O.o
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On October 15 2011 11:58 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 11:44 red_ wrote:On October 15 2011 11:05 Craton wrote:
This is all wrong. You can easily push a lane into the tower and then rain shit down on them from the middle of the lane thereby zoning them from CS or making them eat damage. Further, you can use the little down ramp things toward grass to get free shots out of their vision. In any gank on a sidelane, you can hit from out of range. Further, even without using W you have some of the largest spell ranges of any mage. It takes a lot of Qs to clear a wave, you're not keeping that kind of pushing up. If you're only using it to 'last hit' you're going to be in this half assed state where you're kind of pushing but not pushing really hard into tower either. When you get to their tower 1300 range puts you a little past halfway through mid lane to hit where a ranged champ will be last hitting from, you're going to be so open for a jungle gank. This is all based on you using W apparently all the time at a low level, which isn't possible at all. It's also based on the mage you're laning against not being able to clear the wave either, which many of them do much better(until later when Xerath becomes the fucking king of it, but that's late game with high AP). Level 5 and beyond it takes 2 Qs to clear a wave with AP runes and doran stack. That's "a lot"? Granted, for Xerath is very mana intensive and will want to hog blue, but you can say the same about Zil and he's top tier AP. Also, not leveling W past 1 and saving it for later is quite viable and doesn't hurt you as much as you make it out to seem; that just means you have to be smarter about using your W.
I wasn't aware laning started at lvl 5. Turns out if your grand plan is 'push hard' but you suck at that before lvl 5, your plan kind of sucks.
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On October 15 2011 12:04 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 11:58 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 11:44 red_ wrote:On October 15 2011 11:05 Craton wrote:
This is all wrong. You can easily push a lane into the tower and then rain shit down on them from the middle of the lane thereby zoning them from CS or making them eat damage. Further, you can use the little down ramp things toward grass to get free shots out of their vision. In any gank on a sidelane, you can hit from out of range. Further, even without using W you have some of the largest spell ranges of any mage. It takes a lot of Qs to clear a wave, you're not keeping that kind of pushing up. If you're only using it to 'last hit' you're going to be in this half assed state where you're kind of pushing but not pushing really hard into tower either. When you get to their tower 1300 range puts you a little past halfway through mid lane to hit where a ranged champ will be last hitting from, you're going to be so open for a jungle gank. This is all based on you using W apparently all the time at a low level, which isn't possible at all. It's also based on the mage you're laning against not being able to clear the wave either, which many of them do much better(until later when Xerath becomes the fucking king of it, but that's late game with high AP). Level 5 and beyond it takes 2 Qs to clear a wave with AP runes and doran stack. That's "a lot"? Granted, for Xerath is very mana intensive and will want to hog blue, but you can say the same about Zil and he's top tier AP. Also, not leveling W past 1 and saving it for later is quite viable and doesn't hurt you as much as you make it out to seem; that just means you have to be smarter about using your W. I wasn't aware laning started at lvl 5. Turns out if your grand plan is 'push hard' but you suck at that before lvl 5, your plan kind of sucks.
Not a lot of heros do anything besides passively farming in lane before level 5 lol. And for some reason you seem to think that Xerath is weak before then, even when he has a 550 range autoattack a 900 range farming tool.
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TL should have a pro LoL team, I might take interest in it's pro scene then.
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On October 15 2011 11:59 RogerX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 11:38 Waxangel wrote:picked up an extra riot nasus skin at iem, who wants it ? Dude, raffle it, im sure a lot of people wants it (Such as myself) :D I got nothing to offer you sadly so no equivilent trade.
I'm clearly the top candidate for it since I have given out over a half a dozen skins to the TL community in the past. :D
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On October 15 2011 11:38 Waxangel wrote:picked up an extra riot nasus skin at iem, who wants it ?
Shorter list would be 'who doesn't'
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On October 15 2011 12:04 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 11:58 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 11:44 red_ wrote:On October 15 2011 11:05 Craton wrote:
This is all wrong. You can easily push a lane into the tower and then rain shit down on them from the middle of the lane thereby zoning them from CS or making them eat damage. Further, you can use the little down ramp things toward grass to get free shots out of their vision. In any gank on a sidelane, you can hit from out of range. Further, even without using W you have some of the largest spell ranges of any mage. It takes a lot of Qs to clear a wave, you're not keeping that kind of pushing up. If you're only using it to 'last hit' you're going to be in this half assed state where you're kind of pushing but not pushing really hard into tower either. When you get to their tower 1300 range puts you a little past halfway through mid lane to hit where a ranged champ will be last hitting from, you're going to be so open for a jungle gank. This is all based on you using W apparently all the time at a low level, which isn't possible at all. It's also based on the mage you're laning against not being able to clear the wave either, which many of them do much better(until later when Xerath becomes the fucking king of it, but that's late game with high AP). Level 5 and beyond it takes 2 Qs to clear a wave with AP runes and doran stack. That's "a lot"? Granted, for Xerath is very mana intensive and will want to hog blue, but you can say the same about Zil and he's top tier AP. Also, not leveling W past 1 and saving it for later is quite viable and doesn't hurt you as much as you make it out to seem; that just means you have to be smarter about using your W. I wasn't aware laning started at lvl 5. Turns out if your grand plan is 'push hard' but you suck at that before lvl 5, your plan kind of sucks.
Vast majority of AP laners can't push hard 'til lvl 5. Even Morg can't 1-shot caster creep until lvl 5.
On October 15 2011 12:15 Lorken wrote:
TL should have a pro LoL team, I might take interest in it's pro scene then.
TL used to have a semi-pro team, but it disbanded due to lack of coordination and motivation.
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On October 15 2011 12:35 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 11:38 Waxangel wrote:picked up an extra riot nasus skin at iem, who wants it ? Shorter list would be 'who doesn't'
I think it's kinda ugly :|
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EPT
