EPT[Patch 1.0.0.126: Xerath] General Discussion - Page 118
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snookx
United States23 Posts
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:07 Ryuu314 wrote: Xerath Q is much faster than Morg Q. There's no travel time, only a delay, which is like >1 second. His stun isn't an offensive tool early levels, imo. It's a follow up for ganks, or a counter-gank/counter aggression skill. You don't use his siege at early levels for harass; you only use it if you need it to secure a kill or for the speed boost. Xerath's seige's weakest moment is the 0.5-1 second channel time to get into seige. There is practically no animation/delay getting out of seige. In all honesty, unless you're absolutely brain dead or new at Xerath, being in seige doesn't make you as vulnerable as you think. It's getting into seige that's the vulnerable part. Once you're in seige you're pretty safe since you can just unsiege instantly and zoom away wiht +35% mspd. EDIT: Agreed that his farming isn't as strong as Morg's since you can't clear waves instantly with Q until like...7-9 which is super late. But if you use your stun to prevent aggression rather than you be aggressive you're pretty safe in lane. Yea but since he can't drop the minion waves fast and if your opponent sees you just play it passive, he'll just shrug and pushes the waves so you have to last hit under tower and it's not optimal no matter how many times people repeat the exact amount of hits needed between player/tower to get it, you are gonna miss cs to it. Frees the other AP to go gank as well. So I just don't see him being much of a laner. Yea his desiege is instant and sure you won't find a xerath sitting and waiting in siege mode for something to enter his sights, but what I'm getting at is that the siege mode is so much a non factor untill you get to put points in it, which is probably around 13+. You've been put at a disadvantage long before you can really use that long range. And no his skillshot is not hard to dodge. You have to be slowed first which he cannot do on his own. He is great at ambushing, his full combo is pretty devastating, but he can be put so far behind early levels, since he can't really trade hits early on. Or he could if you land the stun, but you have to land Q for that, and that is avoidable, especially if you are already on his face. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:16 snookx wrote: i cant find anywhere about how much MS quints affect ur movement speed. is it worth getting them over the armor pen ones for jungle udyr? Arpen doesn't make sense on Udyr anyway since both Tiger and Phoenix deal a lot of magic damage. Your choices are flat AD (for Tiger), aspd (Phoenix), or movespeed. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:07 Ryuu314 wrote: Xerath Q is much faster than Morg Q. There's no travel time, only a delay, which is like >1 second. His stun isn't an offensive tool early levels, imo. It's a follow up for ganks, or a counter-gank/counter aggression skill. You don't use his siege at early levels for harass; you only use it if you need it to secure a kill or for the speed boost. Xerath's seige's weakest moment is the 0.5-1 second channel time to get into seige. There is practically no animation/delay getting out of seige. In all honesty, unless you're absolutely brain dead or new at Xerath, being in seige doesn't make you as vulnerable as you think. It's getting into seige that's the vulnerable part. Once you're in seige you're pretty safe since you can just unsiege instantly and zoom away wiht +35% mspd. EDIT: Agreed that his farming isn't as strong as Morg's since you can't clear waves instantly with Q until like...7-9 which is super late. But if you use your stun to prevent aggression rather than you be aggressive you're pretty safe in lane. You guys are seriously clueless about the champ, it's really obvious. He never instaclears waves with Q, until you have a good bit of AP. Also the delay on the Q as a followup for the stun is fairly significant(stun doesn't go off until the damage hits, which for some reason is delayed even after the 'hit'). This is time enough for a person who started boots(everyone) to walk up and unload on you after they wakeup from stun, or just get 1 spell off pre-stun to win the simple trade in damage. Q's cooldown is short, but W's cooldown starts super long. It also has a duration(can't stay perma-W'd at safe distance and unanchor for speed boost 'when you want to') You have to pick and choose when to W up and consider that it has a 'cast' time that another champ can use to close the distance you were trying to abuse, if they even let you create that distance to begin with. | ||
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dnastyx
United States2707 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:20 red_ wrote: \You guys are seriously clueless about the champ, it's really obvious. He never instaclears waves with Q, until you have a good bit of AP. Also the delay on the Q as a followup for the stun is fairly significant(stun doesn't go off until the damage hits, which for some reason is delayed even after the 'hit'). This is time enough for a person who started boots(everyone) to walk up and unload on you after they wakeup from stun, or just get 1 spell off pre-stun to win the simple trade in damage. Q's cooldown is short, but W's cooldown starts super long. It also has a duration(can't stay perma-W'd at safe distance and unanchor for speed boost 'when you want to') You have to pick and choose when to W up and consider that it has a 'cast' time that another champ can use to close the distance you were trying to abuse, if they even let you create that distance to begin with. I don't think he's going to win his lane pre-6, no more than I expect kassadin to win his lane all that hard pre-6 pre-blue buff. Why I think highly of regarding Xerath is his ability to shit on people after level 6 with blue because at that point you really can't juke his stun anymore, and because HIS jungler is going to have such an easy time ganking his lane because of how easy he can set up a stun. Yeah people can still blow him up if they read him correctly, but pretty hard to play around nonetheless. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:20 red_ wrote: You guys are seriously clueless about the champ, it's really obvious. He never instaclears waves with Q, until you have a good bit of AP. Also the delay on the Q as a followup for the stun is fairly significant(stun doesn't go off until the damage hits, which for some reason is delayed even after the 'hit'). This is time enough for a person who started boots(everyone) to walk up and unload on you after they wakeup from stun, or just get 1 spell off pre-stun to win the simple trade in damage. Q's cooldown is short, but W's cooldown starts super long. It also has a duration(can't stay perma-W'd at safe distance and unanchor for speed boost 'when you want to') You have to pick and choose when to W up and consider that it has a 'cast' time that another champ can use to close the distance you were trying to abuse, if they even let you create that distance to begin with. You're putting words in my mouth. I never said you insta-clear with Q. I even said you can't instaclear with Q. You use Q to last hit creep if it's really necessary. His stun is 1.5 seconds. That's a very very long time in LoL and gives you more than enough time to walk out of range if someone's trying to trade hits with you. You should be opening boots as well so if someone's trying to trade you E->Q then walk away. If you can't get out of range in 1.5 seconds there's something wrong. It's not like you'll want to stick around since E->Q is pretty much all your damage early anyways. Also, you dont use W early game at ALL unless you absolutely need to. W is trash until you have it level like 4-5 with CDR. In lane, W is next to worthless. In lane you abuse your 900 base range Q to harass and/or last hit. You use your E to stop aggression and the stun really isn't that hard to land. It's like hitting any other skillshot. If you can land a Morg Q or a Brand Q you can land a Xerath Q. @Dynastx: I'm pretty sure Jatt uses mspd quints... source: http://rog.clgaming.net/blogs/rock-solid/3391-udyr-setup-and-mini-guide | ||
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Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:21 dnastyx wrote: Movespeed actually not as good if you're doing Jatt's Phoenix build and plan to try to steal red or something - ASPD lets you clear your jungle a bit faster, and you spam bear all the way from base to their red anyway Yeah, except Jatt runs MS quints on Phoenix Udyr himself. source. Meh. Ryuu beat me to it. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:28 Ryuu314 wrote: You're putting words in my mouth. I never said you insta-clear with Q. I even said you can't instaclear with Q. You use Q to last hit creep if it's really necessary. His stun is 1.5 seconds. That's a very very long time in LoL and gives you more than enough time to walk out of range if someone's trying to trade hits with you. Also, you dont use W early game at ALL unless you absolutely need to. W is trash until you have it level like 4-5 with CDR. In lane, W is next to worthless. In lane you abuse your 900 base range Q to harass and/or last hit. You use your E to stop aggression and the stun really isn't that hard to land. It's like hitting any other skillshot. If you can land a Morg Q or a Brand Q you can land a Xerath Q. @Dynastx: I'm pretty sure Jatt uses mspd quints... source: http://rog.clgaming.net/blogs/rock-solid/3391-udyr-setup-and-mini-guide since you can't clear waves instantly until like...7-9 Yes, you never said you can instaclear waves... never. I'm glad we agree that W is fucking awful until it's leveled. Landing his skillshot is not like landing 'any other.' It's different, it is easier in some cases, harder in others. When you try to E->Q, if you just smartcast them as fast as possible it actually tends to miss a lot because they will start 'dodging' the moment they see the projectile come out, and your Q will be following the exact same line. If you don't cast it asap then they just look for the line as normal, something a person with boots1 can avoid if they aren't standing still all the time. You're also completely ignoring the dynamics of any lane control, you don't get to just 'sit there Qing for last hits at range.' Who the fuck lets you do that, especially when your lane is pushing because your 'last hit' is AOE. You are going to get zoned, hard, if you play like that. You have to attempt to go last hit like anyone else, which leaves you open for abuse. Your E is extremely mana costly, if that is your way of stopping aggression(e->q) you will a)barely hurt them, b)probably take 1 spell in trade regardless because you were in E range, thus losing the trade, and c) be oom and out of lane very quickly. If you level up E to try and change the scenario above, making your trading ability a little more respectable, your W is now gimped until VERY late game, and you are now projecting your biggest weakness even further. Also, god forbid you actually do miss a skillshot(it happens, even to the best of players, because other people are trying their best to make it happen), you are FUCKED. 100%, completely balls in the ass fucked. Morg gets to just black shield and run, Brand doesn't give a shit because he was the one being aggressive, so he just chalks it up to some wasted mana and goes back to playing, but since you were sitting on yours as your defensive card you just got murdered. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On October 15 2011 00:57 LoCicero wrote: looool, I got raped. Being grilled by 3 different people about vehicle dynamics is sooo fun. Talk about a fucking interrogation. sounds rough O_O | ||
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
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JonsaBoy
Denmark457 Posts
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
By comparison to what your arguments are, we might also think that Morgana is bad. Bind is a skillshot that if dodged will mean you do no damage. Skillshots must be useless. | ||
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:57 epoc wrote: I don't understand why Brand's stun is 2 secs and Xerath's 1.5 Because Xerath can trigger his stun at a much larger range. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 15 2011 06:01 dignity wrote: Because Xerath can trigger his stun at a much larger range. And the skillshots can't be blocked. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 15 2011 06:10 Alzadar wrote: When jungling Malphite, is it worth trying to gank before level 6? Q doesn't seem to be enough of a slow to get much done, unless you gimp your jungling by leveling it before 4. Like any other jungler without an instant gap closer, you can really only gank when they're overextended. Malph can't really go into an even lane and expect to get a kill pre-6, because they can just run to the tower or CC you. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On October 15 2011 06:00 dignity wrote: Your arguments are expecting others to play perfectly. The counter-argument for your argument would be that Xerath plays perfectly as well and so would predict that his target would try to dodge. Nobody plays perfectly, and Xerath punishes mistakes. Also, you can siege out of sight and hit people with your Q since the range is longer than vision range. Sieging up is also MANA FREE. You are also making it sound like the only way for Xerath to fight other casters would be while he is sieged up, which is completely false. If your opponent can dodge skill shots, you can dodge skill shots as well. By comparison to what your arguments are, we might also think that Morgana is bad. Bind is a skillshot that if dodged will mean you do no damage. Skillshots must be useless. My argument is that laning is too important in this game for a champ like Xerath, who is awful at laning, to be good. You can't 'siege out of sight' and harass people in lane phase, first because it lasts 8 seconds on a 20second cooldown at level 1, and second because... it's just not feasible. You will self zone yourself trying to do that, and they will be more than happy to take xp and last hits while you derp around hoping to land 80 damage line shots that push the lane further in their favor. Cass, Kass, Karth, Brand, Malz, and Zil will all ABSOLUTELY SHIT ON HIM, all day every day, because each of them has a way to say 'fuck you' to his E, limited by it's range, and even to his Q, which though it has as high or higher range than all of them, is limited by an actual cast time that leaves him stationary, which effectively reduces the range(if you cast at actual max range, they run 1 pixel back and outrange it, while their skills don't have that liability). I'm not just making random observations on a few Xerath games. I played nothing but him for like 3 straight days, and have still put in a few games a night on him since, on both SR and Dom(where he is a ton stronger, undeniable). His SR game is very limited, he is in no way 'unviable' but this conversation is about him being 'OP' and 'soon to be #1 ban' which is just flat out wrong. This is the same argument I had with people way back when Kog was released and people were whining about AP kog being #1 OP(I wouldn't be shocked to see that Tap was amongst them because some people will stay the same forever), and I, the person who was actually playing him(because it was fun despite weakness), was saying he's actually kinda mediocre. But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that). | ||
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