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On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them.
Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. Also Cassiopeia, although yes, she got small buffs after her release, but like Lee Sin, even after her buffs, she was considered shit until like a month ago. Maokai can also make that list seeing how his last meaningful buff was in April, but people haven't been playing him or even considering him until like this summer.
Riot's track history tells us they release champs that are either batshit OP on release and are instanerfed (ie pre-hotfix Leblanc). Or they release useless champs ie. Leona). Or they release meh champs that become OP in several months as people learn the champs.
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On October 15 2011 06:00 dignity wrote:
Your arguments are expecting others to play perfectly. The counter-argument for your argument would be that Xerath plays perfectly as well and so would predict that his target would try to dodge. Nobody plays perfectly, and Xerath punishes mistakes. Also, you can siege out of sight and hit people with your Q since the range is longer than vision range. Sieging up is also MANA FREE. You are also making it sound like the only way for Xerath to fight other casters would be while he is sieged up, which is completely false. If your opponent can dodge skill shots, you can dodge skill shots as well.
By comparison to what your arguments are, we might also think that Morgana is bad. Bind is a skillshot that if dodged will mean you do no damage. Skillshots must be useless.
If you aren't sieged, your stun range is 600. That means you will trade with other APs. Most of them will outright crap on you pre-6 in a trade. If you siege, you have the range advantage, but still it's a skillshot that can be dodged, it has massive cooldown at low level so it's not really useful for anything but making the last harass move before basing.
Morgana doesn't get shat on, because black shield OP. She can afford to miss a Q, back off. Pool the minions and be K. If you were offensive on Xerath and missed your stun, well you are most likely now dead. If it was a defensive move, you'll trade damage and lose that trade.
Maybe he'll be awesome in dedicated poke teams where jungler babysat the lane for him to do well, but being a top ban or something is pretty ridiculous at this point.
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servers just blew up hilariously
just had a game where 3+ people from each side were d/cing and reconnecting every 10 seconds
MIGHTY SINGED COULD NOT BE ASSED TO D/C HOWEVER SO I PULLED THROUGH
no loss forgiveness either torlololoolol
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On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time.
irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two.
A better example I think would be jax.
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On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. Also Cassiopeia, although yes, she got small buffs after her release, but like Lee Sin, even after her buffs, she was considered shit until like a month ago. Maokai can also make that list seeing how his last meaningful buff was in April, but people haven't been playing him or even considering him until like this summer.
That's just how it is sometimes, though. People just jump on whatever bandwagon they hear, and it sticks. There are a lot of champs that I'm sure are rather competitive and probably fucking awesome, but no one plays because a pro said they were crap at release or because they weren't used at a tournament and fell out of FotM.
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On October 15 2011 06:43 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two. A better example I think would be jax.
Irelia got slight range buffs and a 10 .damage increase on her ulti, but wasn't considered OP until 2-3 patches after those buffs. I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Ori and Jarvan were good and solid, but not OP on release. I remember Elementz saying Ori was well-designed and balanced in his little tier list thing. If Riven got buffed I don't remember and it's not in the wiki.
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On October 15 2011 06:46 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. Also Cassiopeia, although yes, she got small buffs after her release, but like Lee Sin, even after her buffs, she was considered shit until like a month ago. Maokai can also make that list seeing how his last meaningful buff was in April, but people haven't been playing him or even considering him until like this summer. That's just how it is sometimes, though. People just jump on whatever bandwagon they hear, and it sticks. There are a lot of champs that I'm sure are rather competitive and probably fucking awesome, but no one plays because a pro said they were crap at release or because they weren't used at a tournament and fell out of FotM.
I think this is like a comforting myth people like to believe. Like... that happens... but very rarely. 95% of the time when champs rise or fall in popularity it's straight up it's because of actual balance changes or new strategies to promote/demote them.
On October 15 2011 06:48 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two. A better example I think would be jax. Irelia got slight range buffs and a 10 .damage increase on her ulti, but wasn't considered OP until 2-3 patches after those buffs. I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Ori and Jarvan were good and solid, but not OP on release. I remember Elementz saying Ori was well-designed and balanced in his little tier list thing. If Riven got buffed I don't remember and it's not in the wiki.
The irelia buffs fixed her only weaknesses, they were very significant.
I dunno what elementz said, doesn't really figure into my thinking.
I'd swear riven got changed. Although she's not really relevant since I think we still have no idea how good she is.
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On October 15 2011 06:48 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two. A better example I think would be jax. Irelia got slight range buffs and a 10 .damage increase on her ulti, but wasn't considered OP until 2-3 patches after those buffs. I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Ori and Jarvan were good and solid, but not OP on release. I remember Elementz saying Ori was well-designed and balanced in his little tier list thing. If Riven got buffed I don't remember and it's not in the wiki.
She got hotfixes with slight damage increases and made her animations quicker. It made her MUCH better.
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On October 15 2011 06:49 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:46 Requizen wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. Also Cassiopeia, although yes, she got small buffs after her release, but like Lee Sin, even after her buffs, she was considered shit until like a month ago. Maokai can also make that list seeing how his last meaningful buff was in April, but people haven't been playing him or even considering him until like this summer. That's just how it is sometimes, though. People just jump on whatever bandwagon they hear, and it sticks. There are a lot of champs that I'm sure are rather competitive and probably fucking awesome, but no one plays because a pro said they were crap at release or because they weren't used at a tournament and fell out of FotM. I think this is like a comforting myth people like to believe. Like... that happens... but very rarely. 95% of the time when champs rise or fall in popularity it's straight up it's because of actual balance changes or new strategies to promote/demote them. Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:48 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two. A better example I think would be jax. Irelia got slight range buffs and a 10 .damage increase on her ulti, but wasn't considered OP until 2-3 patches after those buffs. I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Ori and Jarvan were good and solid, but not OP on release. I remember Elementz saying Ori was well-designed and balanced in his little tier list thing. If Riven got buffed I don't remember and it's not in the wiki. The irelia buffs fixed her only weaknesses, they were very significant. I dunno what elementz said, doesn't really figure into my thinking. I'd swear riven got changed. Although she's not really relevant since I think we still have no idea how good she is.
The Irelia buffs were 50 range increase on her Q and E. That's significant? After that it's just straight nerfs through and through. Irelia is/was OP cause of her passive which never changed. She got popular because of meta changes and people started running bruiser/sustain top lanes.
Riven got hotfixed apparently. I didn't know bout that
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On October 15 2011 06:54 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:49 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:46 Requizen wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. Also Cassiopeia, although yes, she got small buffs after her release, but like Lee Sin, even after her buffs, she was considered shit until like a month ago. Maokai can also make that list seeing how his last meaningful buff was in April, but people haven't been playing him or even considering him until like this summer. That's just how it is sometimes, though. People just jump on whatever bandwagon they hear, and it sticks. There are a lot of champs that I'm sure are rather competitive and probably fucking awesome, but no one plays because a pro said they were crap at release or because they weren't used at a tournament and fell out of FotM. I think this is like a comforting myth people like to believe. Like... that happens... but very rarely. 95% of the time when champs rise or fall in popularity it's straight up it's because of actual balance changes or new strategies to promote/demote them. On October 15 2011 06:48 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two. A better example I think would be jax. Irelia got slight range buffs and a 10 .damage increase on her ulti, but wasn't considered OP until 2-3 patches after those buffs. I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Ori and Jarvan were good and solid, but not OP on release. I remember Elementz saying Ori was well-designed and balanced in his little tier list thing. If Riven got buffed I don't remember and it's not in the wiki. The irelia buffs fixed her only weaknesses, they were very significant. I dunno what elementz said, doesn't really figure into my thinking. I'd swear riven got changed. Although she's not really relevant since I think we still have no idea how good she is. The Irelia buffs were 50 range increase on her Q and E. That's significant?
Very! lol
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I forgot to mention brand.
Red_'s argument is mostly around "Q es skillshot and skillshots make for shitty laning." Brand was considered very meh on release since all his shit was skillshots. Now he's top tier AP champ with 0 buffs. Only bug fixes and nerfs in his patch history.
On October 15 2011 06:56 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:54 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:49 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:46 Requizen wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. Also Cassiopeia, although yes, she got small buffs after her release, but like Lee Sin, even after her buffs, she was considered shit until like a month ago. Maokai can also make that list seeing how his last meaningful buff was in April, but people haven't been playing him or even considering him until like this summer. That's just how it is sometimes, though. People just jump on whatever bandwagon they hear, and it sticks. There are a lot of champs that I'm sure are rather competitive and probably fucking awesome, but no one plays because a pro said they were crap at release or because they weren't used at a tournament and fell out of FotM. I think this is like a comforting myth people like to believe. Like... that happens... but very rarely. 95% of the time when champs rise or fall in popularity it's straight up it's because of actual balance changes or new strategies to promote/demote them. On October 15 2011 06:48 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two. A better example I think would be jax. Irelia got slight range buffs and a 10 .damage increase on her ulti, but wasn't considered OP until 2-3 patches after those buffs. I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Ori and Jarvan were good and solid, but not OP on release. I remember Elementz saying Ori was well-designed and balanced in his little tier list thing. If Riven got buffed I don't remember and it's not in the wiki. The irelia buffs fixed her only weaknesses, they were very significant. I dunno what elementz said, doesn't really figure into my thinking. I'd swear riven got changed. Although she's not really relevant since I think we still have no idea how good she is. The Irelia buffs were 50 range increase on her Q and E. That's significant? Very! lol
Alright if you say so :O
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On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:00 dignity wrote:
Your arguments are expecting others to play perfectly. The counter-argument for your argument would be that Xerath plays perfectly as well and so would predict that his target would try to dodge. Nobody plays perfectly, and Xerath punishes mistakes. Also, you can siege out of sight and hit people with your Q since the range is longer than vision range. Sieging up is also MANA FREE. You are also making it sound like the only way for Xerath to fight other casters would be while he is sieged up, which is completely false. If your opponent can dodge skill shots, you can dodge skill shots as well.
By comparison to what your arguments are, we might also think that Morgana is bad. Bind is a skillshot that if dodged will mean you do no damage. Skillshots must be useless.
No one gets them right all the time. I'm sorry that your experience with Xerath has been lackluster, but calling me out like that is kind of low.
To me, I can't see Xerath as a strong option in a competitive team. Sorry, but even if your soloQ experience tells you one thing, I definitely can't see him as bad. You can't pick him against casseiopia because she'll rape him in lane, that I believe. I also believe that fed solotop assassins will fuck him up because that's what they do. Aside from these scenarios, he's really every bit as painful as one can tell from his numbers.
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On October 15 2011 06:57 Ryuu314 wrote:I forgot to mention brand. Red_'s argument is mostly around "Q es skillshot and skillshots make for shitty laning." Brand was considered very meh on release since all his shit was skillshots. Now he's top tier AP champ with 0 buffs. Only bug fixes and nerfs in his patch history. Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:56 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:54 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:49 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:46 Requizen wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. Also Cassiopeia, although yes, she got small buffs after her release, but like Lee Sin, even after her buffs, she was considered shit until like a month ago. Maokai can also make that list seeing how his last meaningful buff was in April, but people haven't been playing him or even considering him until like this summer. That's just how it is sometimes, though. People just jump on whatever bandwagon they hear, and it sticks. There are a lot of champs that I'm sure are rather competitive and probably fucking awesome, but no one plays because a pro said they were crap at release or because they weren't used at a tournament and fell out of FotM. I think this is like a comforting myth people like to believe. Like... that happens... but very rarely. 95% of the time when champs rise or fall in popularity it's straight up it's because of actual balance changes or new strategies to promote/demote them. On October 15 2011 06:48 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two. A better example I think would be jax. Irelia got slight range buffs and a 10 .damage increase on her ulti, but wasn't considered OP until 2-3 patches after those buffs. I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Ori and Jarvan were good and solid, but not OP on release. I remember Elementz saying Ori was well-designed and balanced in his little tier list thing. If Riven got buffed I don't remember and it's not in the wiki. The irelia buffs fixed her only weaknesses, they were very significant. I dunno what elementz said, doesn't really figure into my thinking. I'd swear riven got changed. Although she's not really relevant since I think we still have no idea how good she is. The Irelia buffs were 50 range increase on her Q and E. That's significant? Very! lol Alright if you say so :O
Brand was considered very good at release, and even got the bads on the forums to claim he was op.
And 50 range on a cap closer and a stun is a very big deal.
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Holy shit 26:49 Dominion game feels long as hell. The fact that we were almost aced with 32-17 in their favor and managed to grab a tower at the last second then hold it might have helped in transforming those seconds into hours, though.
Edit: I don't know about Irelia's E... I feel like it's only significant when used offensively (ie chasing) since her casting animation is so slow she'll almost always get it by whatever a melee opponent wants to do to her before he gets stunned. Garen's a good exemple.
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On October 15 2011 06:49 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:46 Requizen wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. Also Cassiopeia, although yes, she got small buffs after her release, but like Lee Sin, even after her buffs, she was considered shit until like a month ago. Maokai can also make that list seeing how his last meaningful buff was in April, but people haven't been playing him or even considering him until like this summer. That's just how it is sometimes, though. People just jump on whatever bandwagon they hear, and it sticks. There are a lot of champs that I'm sure are rather competitive and probably fucking awesome, but no one plays because a pro said they were crap at release or because they weren't used at a tournament and fell out of FotM. I think this is like a comforting myth people like to believe. Like... that happens... but very rarely. 95% of the time when champs rise or fall in popularity it's straight up it's because of actual balance changes or new strategies to promote/demote them. Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:48 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two. A better example I think would be jax. Irelia got slight range buffs and a 10 .damage increase on her ulti, but wasn't considered OP until 2-3 patches after those buffs. I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Ori and Jarvan were good and solid, but not OP on release. I remember Elementz saying Ori was well-designed and balanced in his little tier list thing. If Riven got buffed I don't remember and it's not in the wiki. The irelia buffs fixed her only weaknesses, they were very significant. I dunno what elementz said, doesn't really figure into my thinking. I'd swear riven got changed. Although she's not really relevant since I think we still have no idea how good she is.
"new strategies" are based around picks most of the time. most of the teams just pick what they are comfortable with it seems from the pick history and interviews. Not only Jax is a good example for champions in the dark but also prenerf morde, cassio, prenerf swain, prenerf malzahar, galio, akali seems to be one of them too. Famous players liking a champ or playing a champ often has a very significant impact on the scene. I think roaming alistar is a good example. He was considered useless until some players saw his roaming potential and surprised everyone with it (the buffs afterwards moved him to the ap carry position). Take gragas. Not like he is picked very often but at least everyone recognizes him as a strong ap carry now. EG picking heimerdinger into the right teamcomp forced their opponents to ban him afterwards.
Wether patches or players have more influence on concurrent picks is a useless argument. What holds true is: never get fooled by a champion's recieved strength/weakness because it can easily be just a trend thing.
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The problem is that most people assume that when they dont see a champ played for a while, that that champ is bad. Like Heimer. Wheras everyone with half a brain is aware that he is a bitch to lane against, and his rockets fucking hurt. It was the same before dan played him, and the same after. Its just all about exposure.
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United States47024 Posts
Arguing over whether "people thought X champion was good at release" is really fucking stupid. Whenever you try to give examples, there's always at least someone here who will say "she was stupid good at release, I knew it". Everyone's going to be right at least once, so it's a fruitless exercise.
On October 15 2011 08:56 Two_DoWn wrote:
The problem is that most people assume that when they dont see a champ played for a while, that that champ is bad. Like Heimer. Wheras everyone with half a brain is aware that he is a bitch to lane against, and his rockets fucking hurt. It was the same before dan played him, and the same after. Its just all about exposure.
I said this before. There is no champ in the champ pool that is straight-up weak. It comes down to where they're getting played as far as team-comps. Some champs are more flexible picks because they have rounded champion kits that have attributes that are good in all team-comps, while some have more niche uses--but once you're in the game, every one is as game-changing as everyone else.
But the vast majority of the community sucks at this game. TL maybe sucks a little less, but most of us suck too (myself included). Very few people understand this game well enough to determine all the factors going into what makes these niche picks successful. So it's easier for people to play the generic flexible picks that are versatile enough to work with anything. Most of the "OP" champs are easier to slot into a random team-comp and see success with. Heimer's strong in the right comp, but to someone who has a poor understanding of WHERE he'll be successful, you're much better off playing Morgana every game than Heimer every game.
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On October 15 2011 06:57 Ryuu314 wrote:
Red_'s argument is mostly around "Q es skillshot and skillshots make for shitty laning." Brand was considered very meh on release since all his shit was skillshots. Now he's top tier AP champ with 0 buffs. Only bug fixes and nerfs in his patch history.
No, my argument is that his entire kit as a whole makes him shitty for laning. I even mentioned that other 'skillshot' based champs RAPE him because of the nature of how Xerath's skillshot fits in with the rest of his skills. His range should be godmode, but he is limited by his E's range, which in essence reduces his actual effective range in a 1v1 scenario. You can't just poke/harass with Q all day, it doesn't work(vs good players, qualification).
I'll cede a point: vs people that don't take advantage of his weaknesses(that he has no business in any trade with any other mid lane hero, including ad's and typically top assassins), he will absolutely destroy because he scales super well(1.8 AP ratio on ult, in a decent sized AoE, .6 on a super spammable AoE Q, 1300 range and ~64% mpen for sieging towers or skirmishes that happen where they weren't aware of Xerath being close enough to factor in.). And that's why I do actually have some games on him where I've gone like 20-2-10, because the Annie I was against didn't think to just charge her stun and engage on me with far superior damage output, winning any sort of trade and nullifying any harassment I may have been able to output.
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Hmm. When it comes to Xerath as a Karthus player I really don't mind laning vs him at all. There never seems to be danger for a Flash/Stun/lol 2/3 your hp is gone if you make a mistake like vs annie or brand lets say. I have only laned vs him a few times and I straight up raped him around half the time (IE multiple kills) and the others he tried to play safe siege mode or w/e and I was never under duress and he fell behind on cs. They were just terrible players though so w/e. Only time I died to him was when he had help from a jungler because his perceived weakness let me be over aggressive sometimes then he can just play a lil bait then turn around Stun Blamo jungler comes in. He doesn't seem like a threat ever by himself is my point pre 6. Once he gets his ulti though then I played against a guy who was very good at landing hit ulti after his e and that freaking hurts.
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On October 15 2011 07:27 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 06:57 Ryuu314 wrote:I forgot to mention brand. Red_'s argument is mostly around "Q es skillshot and skillshots make for shitty laning." Brand was considered very meh on release since all his shit was skillshots. Now he's top tier AP champ with 0 buffs. Only bug fixes and nerfs in his patch history. On October 15 2011 06:56 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:54 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:49 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:46 Requizen wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. Also Cassiopeia, although yes, she got small buffs after her release, but like Lee Sin, even after her buffs, she was considered shit until like a month ago. Maokai can also make that list seeing how his last meaningful buff was in April, but people haven't been playing him or even considering him until like this summer. That's just how it is sometimes, though. People just jump on whatever bandwagon they hear, and it sticks. There are a lot of champs that I'm sure are rather competitive and probably fucking awesome, but no one plays because a pro said they were crap at release or because they weren't used at a tournament and fell out of FotM. I think this is like a comforting myth people like to believe. Like... that happens... but very rarely. 95% of the time when champs rise or fall in popularity it's straight up it's because of actual balance changes or new strategies to promote/demote them. On October 15 2011 06:48 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On October 15 2011 06:36 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 15 2011 06:17 red_ wrote:
But I must just pale in comparison to how good some of you arguing this point are. Brees too. Oh and every other good player that I've had this discussion with that agrees 100%. Sometimes a champ is 'secretly' good and needs ironing out, and sometimes the champ REALLY IS AS BAD AS IT SEEMS. If you go look at the release history of the game, Occam's Razor wins. There have been more 'no, he's actually just not that good' champs than 'omg it took no changes to make this guy OP, just some more play time to discover how to be OP!'(Has that ever actually happened? Legit, 0 patch changes, just straight up needed to be played more to be OP, not 'somewhat good' or 'viable' but straight up OP as people are claiming Xerath is? I can honestly think of 0 examples of this but I didn't play early release/beta, I heard Ezreal was like that).
Erm...wut. The vast majority of cases in Riot's recent champ releasing has been them releasing a champ people think is mediocre/sucks then suddenly become really good as people learn to play them. Irelia, Jarvan, Rumble, Oriana, Talon off the top of my head and now some people are saying Riven's pretty good and SV is saying Wukong is OP. You can also add Lee Sin since even after the hot fix people still said he sucked for the longest time. irelia got big buffs, everyone thought ori was stupid OP day 1, riven got big buffs, talon is a legit example, jarvan was day 1 op, riven and wukong i dunno. I've always thought wukong was pretty nuts but I might be wrong, I have no idea if riven is good. Jury still out on those two. A better example I think would be jax. Irelia got slight range buffs and a 10 .damage increase on her ulti, but wasn't considered OP until 2-3 patches after those buffs. I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought Ori and Jarvan were good and solid, but not OP on release. I remember Elementz saying Ori was well-designed and balanced in his little tier list thing. If Riven got buffed I don't remember and it's not in the wiki. The irelia buffs fixed her only weaknesses, they were very significant. I dunno what elementz said, doesn't really figure into my thinking. I'd swear riven got changed. Although she's not really relevant since I think we still have no idea how good she is. The Irelia buffs were 50 range increase on her Q and E. That's significant? Very! lol Alright if you say so :O Brand was considered very good at release, and even got the bads on the forums to claim he was op. And 50 range on a cap closer and a stun is a very big deal.
Not true. Brand was never played at ALL on NA servers until Europeans started spamming games with him in every tournament.
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EPT
