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Game analysis:
Picks have no synergy.
Rammus really bad jungle pick. Sona better than Soraka for teamfights in this comp. Brand/Irelia/Kog is okay, but there's no real reason to pick both of those aside from 'counter the lane'. In teamfights, you have to hope that they go all in on Irelia diving their carry. It's an Ezreal...who is going to have a much easier time getting away from Irelia than other carries do. Renekton/Udyr are just going to go balls deep on Kogmaw.
Your only initiation in that case is Irelia diving in. Brand does burst deeps, so you need solid initiation before the fight starts. Kog needs people to protect him. You don't really have any.
Level 1 Gank: You guys need to buy faster. No excuses; just do it so you can move out faster.
@ double gols: Astar you turn on your W way too early. Golems weren't even hitting you yet.
Bot lane is an okay matchup but Tap needs to play it defensive instead of aggressive. Almost no reason to be in front of Kog or even that close to him. If they force trades you can go up and silence, otherwise just stay back.
Tap needs better CVs. Either Astarwulf needs to call out Udyr's likely locations or Tap needs to know enough about jungling to find them himself.
Astarwulf you need to time ganks better. After you got red, mid was clearly pushing up toward Kennen. Go gank it instead of doing double gols. Kennen was at Brand's tower for way too long.
Udyr gank shouldn't have happened (the kill on kog a bot). You guys are losing this off of weak jungler and support.
Astarwulf, you shouldn't try to gank that bot lane. Waste of time since you're the only stun. Because of that, Udyr just took your jungle. Learn the matchup better; I'll help you if I can. Opportune lanes to gank are top and mid. Even if you don't kill Renek top, Rammus+Irelia is serious pressure on the tower if you force him to back. And Renek is pushed up sooo often. No reason not to if you can clear your jungle quickly. Philo Stone also a REALLY bad buy, especially against Udyr. You have no ganking potential without boots. Get them fast.
I don't know ho Rhav died the second time in mid...Udyr walked all the way up and it was clear he was going for ganks because Dragon was up soon. If you guys have the timer then MAKE USE OF IT. You guys need to coordinate and make ganks/plays if you want to get the drag.
Astar, don't go to gank a lane that's ALREADY pushed up like you did to top. You have to predict when the waves are pushing up. Tap you need to CV more often to find their jungler, especially against Udyr. Make sure you know when his red is up/down and you wont have to worry about CVing random spots because they're playing fishy or anything like that.
Astarwulf, if you're behind in the jungle you need to ward your own jungle and try to make plays to keep Udyr off of your CS. You also need to donate buffs pretty much every time. Blue to Brand as often as you can, red to Irelia. You can't gank with those because your build is slowed down. Give it to someone useful.
Astarwulf and Tap need to pay more attention to wards and the minimap. Support and jungler are the least interactive in terms of micro for laning phase, so watch the wards on your minimap constantly.
I don't really see anything particularly wrong with the lanes - Gandhi, Chobz, and Rhav are doing what they're supposed to in trying to CS. Chobz needs to be less aggressive after dying to Udyr the first time.
Major dive at bot with Udyr and then Kennen diving onto the turret - Rhav just farmed mid...although you guys were already really behind at this point.
Tap didn't have oracles 20+ minutes into the game...zzz. Why buy Boots 2? Also, when bot lane went down and 4 went top, Chobz should have been farming bot. Tap should have been supporting them top. Really bad split by the team. You guys don't group together and lose 2 turrets for no reason.
You guys need to trust each other to do your jobs/lanes correctly. Tap needs to stop telling people why X or Y is bad and just give orders. Rest of you guys need to talk more so Tap isn't talking nonstop for 50 minutes. It's only worth mentioning ONCE why a fight went badly, and then saying "let's not do that next time." If you guys would stop arguing and actually listened more, you would be a lot more coordinated.
The first fight at Baron was a terrible terrible location. That opening is free Kennen ulti on all of you - the ledges won't save you from that. Needed to try to come up from the top, although the game was already over at this point.
zzzs I forgot a lot of things, but I was typing this up while watching the replay.
Key Takeaways:
1) Jungler and Support need to be in sync. A good support understands jungle routes and threats from the jungle, because that's where most of the risk is from early game.
2) Astarwulf needs to get better at jungling. You don't adapt very well. You have to learn to if you're not going to play dominating junglers. Just grind out games where you jungle. You have the most control over when ganks happen, where to apply pressure, when to play aggressive to go for an objective. Don't be afraid of people calling you bad. Just do it, learn from a mistake, mute Tap when he rages and you'll learn to make good decisions.
3) We'll get better at picks as we play more together. Try to play more so you understand what champions everyone is comfortable with.
4) COMMUNICATE MORE. Even if Tap is making the calls, he should be talking MAYBE 5% more than the rest of the team. Jungler should constantly ask how lanes are doing, support should call out opportunities, and solos should communicate to the jungler about when their lane is about to push back, if flashes are down, etc. When it comes to teamfights, Tap needs to give orders and not talk constantly about past mistakes. Just focus on what needs to happen RIGHT NOW. Comments like "that was dumb" or "I don't know why we keep losing". The rest of you bicker a lot too, just not as loudly as Tap. Give orders. Respond with feedback. Rinse and repeat. Small talk is okay, arguing is not. Just talk about it after the game. Who cares if BP starts 13 potions on Sona? Talk about it after the game. You guys all talk at each other.
Last one is most important. Everything else will come with practice and experience.
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I lagged at the start of the game and couldn't get my cv off until it was way too late, and then I was in an awkward position and lagged at level 1 and gave udyr first blood. That was terrible. I honestly that game was entirely on me for 1) completely zoning out on picking Udyr (it was a bad decision even if at the time I didn't pay particular attention to it), and 2) for screwing up early game that bad.
With regards to our team composition, two points of contention were the support pick and the jungle pick:
For reference what it ended up being was
TL B - soraka, kogmaw rammus, irelia, brand
Their team - taric, ezreal, udyr, renekton, kennen
1) I should have picked Janna or Sona. No excuses there I just totally let the timer pressure get to me and picked something stupid to go with kogmaw.
2) I don't think Rammus is a worse pick than Nocturne, who we were originally going to go with but I insisted on a support peeler as opposed to jungle DPS since I don't think nocturne would have worked at all versus the enemy team, as he's fairly mediocre.
We should have taken Mummy. Much better cc for kogmaw vs double bruisers, a decent amount of damage against tanky champions, and keeps Kennen in check much better than rammus can since Mummy can actually gank Kennen in mid.
Play and learn, I was way too pissy today and I'm sorry to anyone who was annoyed by my behavior.
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On October 05 2011 12:41 dnastyx wrote:
You guys need to trust each other to do your jobs/lanes correctly. Tap needs to stop telling people why X or Y is bad and just give orders. Rest of you guys need to talk more so Tap isn't talking nonstop for 50 minutes. It's only worth mentioning ONCE why a fight went badly, and then saying "let's not do that next time." If you guys would stop arguing and actually listened more, you would be a lot more coordinated.
This is exactly my sentiments on such issues.
The leader is meant to make the big calls. We don't need anyone to hold our hand and tell us what's good/bad. Honestly, I don't think any of us cares to hear something we already know.
Also, work on timers! zzz
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WHATEVER JUST PLAY TOGETHER MOAR
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more practice more unity more togetherness =) gluck TL B
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Rammus is a really bad jungler pick, since he can't estabilish jungle control without much effort and has one of the worst invasions in the game.
While Noc's ganks isn't as hard as Rammus, he is one of the best invaders in the game (I would say ~top 5, behind Yi, P Udyr, Lee Singer and Trundle). If you had at least one of those on the pool, you should've go with it (perhaps not Yi, but I'm working on my Yi strats :D).
Also, if you guys watched Elementz commentary on IEM: "EU junglers are just a ganking support or a tank slot. NA junglers are a third carry". I personally agree with this, as I'm not a big fan of Mummy for the jungle and I don't think that's the direction you should take. Remember, you don't need a tank to soak damage if you kill them faster.
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Mummy was to give our team initiation and he can force a gank into lanes that are typically annoying to gank because of double-stun combo which works perfectly with brand vs kennen and bot vs ezreal/taric.
I didn't want nocturne because we already picked Irelia and I dislike stacking too many single-target assassins unless it specifically counters their lineup (here it doesn't because their AP carry was kenyen and AD carry was ezreal).
You don't need a super strong duelist to maintain jungle control; the team can and should work together to parry jungle invasions. Carry junglers are strong when you have team-independent carries (like they did), but picking nocturne to compliment kogmaw and brand is just silly. Likewise, none of the duelist junglers could have worked in our lineup with the exception of trundle which our jungler does not own. A tank jungler was everything we needed, and it would have worked if their jungler didn't get far ahead so early.
Most of the champions everyone plays lack solid initiation capacities. Top needs to learn Galio and Cho in addition to the standard bruisers, one for initiation and the other for disruption, and both control space really well. We should try to field Ashe sometime to be able to start a fight more reliably and as a result we need to also learn how to deal with playing a very passive bot lane and still stay focused enough to deflect jungle invasions. Our mid needs a lot of work because BP needs to get to the point where he can feel comfortable picking Annie and initate with her at the right time. AP mid options for us feel way too constrained at this point when it's a fairly large lynchpin in bringing the team composition together along with the jungler. When we have fucking AP Janna as our most reliable mid you know there's a huge problem here.
And yes we will be playing together a lot more. Imo we should practice laning too. Ghandisauce should practice solotop with Chobz and needs to give more respect to lanes that while he might dominate somewhat early, but will be infinitely more productive than him in teamfights. We can't be counterpicking top lane every game with zero team synergy.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 05 2011 21:50 necrosed wrote:
Rammus is a really bad jungler pick, since he can't estabilish jungle control without much effort and has one of the worst invasions in the game.
While Noc's ganks isn't as hard as Rammus, he is one of the best invaders in the game (I would say ~top 5, behind Yi, P Udyr, Lee Singer and Trundle). If you had at least one of those on the pool, you should've go with it (perhaps not Yi, but I'm working on my Yi strats :D).
Also, if you guys watched Elementz commentary on IEM: "EU junglers are just a ganking support or a tank slot. NA junglers are a third carry". I personally agree with this, as I'm not a big fan of Mummy for the jungle and I don't think that's the direction you should take. Remember, you don't need a tank to soak damage if you kill them faster.
Picking a control jungler is going to be of limited effect against Udyr--none of the other control junglers other than Yi have the means to invade against him effectively, because he's so fast. Nocturne in particular, simply can't keep up the necessary speed without hogging blue buffs, which he can't afford to do with Brand vs. Kennen as the mid-lane matchup.
You're taking Elementz' quote way out of context. The "third carry" way of playing junglers fits in line with US comps that have more supportive solo laners (Galio, Zilean, etc.). He said "third carry" not "4th carry" after all. If you wanted a carry jungler, then you'd want to replace Brand with someone more defensive/supportive (Morgana, Zilean) or Irelia similarly (Galio, Cho'gath). You don't create farm for the jungler out of nowhere--every CS you choose to give to the jungler is 1 CS that a laner doesn't, and vice versa. If you want to run carry junglers, you get farm for them by running solo laners that can afford to give up farm for them because they level off late-game.
Amumu would have been great for your team comp, but you'd need to swap up your picks for stronger low-level champions capable of defending his jungle (Alistar or Cho'gath would have been good for this). As it stands, picking Amumu into their triple-stun level 1 means you're likely forced to give up at least your blue, if not more in the face of proper Taric roaming.
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What I wanted to say is, since they did pick Udyr as the jungler, picking a jungler that can't fight him off doesn't really help you out. Or, if TL had the first pick, picking a jungler that really limits your team (like Rammus) won't do you any good. There were so many better junglers at the pool, even if you needed a tankier jungler. Jarvan and Warwick, for instance, can deal so much better with the counterjungling and still provide solid ganking/tanking later.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 06 2011 02:04 necrosed wrote:
What I wanted to say is, since they did pick Udyr as the jungler, picking a jungler that can't fight him off doesn't really help you out. Or, if TL had the first pick, picking a jungler that really limits your team (like Rammus) won't do you any good. There were so many better junglers at the pool, even if you needed a tankier jungler. Jarvan and Warwick, for instance, can deal so much better with the counterjungling and still provide solid ganking/tanking later.
What? Warwick is awful defensively against Udyr and has far weaker gank pressure until 6. The speed differential is enormous--Udyr can do his wolves+blue, and then rotate and do your wraiths and minigolems with almost no risk because you won't clear to your red side fast enough (meaning that even if he gets caught, it'll be a 2v1 or 3v2 if your laners go to stop him).
Rammus' first clear can actually match Udyr's for the most part. DBC lets him also wolves->blue, and he has one of the smoothest Wraith camp clears in the game (alongside Udyr and Amumu).
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Perhaps I'm a little biased against Rammus, but I wouldn't pick him with Lee Sin, Amumu, Trundle, Yi, Jarvan and even Nunu in the pool.
And do note that you can setup an anti-counter route with Amumu. You don't need to start with blue, but you'll need a semi-decent level 1 team.
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United States47024 Posts
I'm going to try breaking this down a bit further. For the sake of simplicity, I'm assuming jungle was the last pick. Looking at some of the factors in jungle selection:
Ganking power - the lanes are Irelia vs. Renekton, Brand vs. Kennen, and Soraka/Kog'maw vs. Ezreal/Taric. Kennen is troublesome to gank overall, so he's the smallest factor in determining the gank needs of your jungler. Irelia vs. Renekton and Soraka/Kog vs. Ez/Taric are both lane matchups that are skewed toward the opponent early, but if your team's laners don't get screwed early, they'll be able to stabilize and farm, eventually outscaling their opponents. Soraka/Kog is the lane least likely actually turn a kill, but also has the highest return even on semi-successful ganks, because Kog free-farm is worth more than free-farm on anyone else picked. From this perspective, you need to choose a jungler that either has early gank pressure, or forgo using that as a determining factor at all. This makes Warwick and Nocturne somewhat awkward, as they pick up a large portion of their gank pressure after 6, when either your lanes either no longer need the help, or are too late to save. Rammus is OK in this department. He slows down as a jungler after a few levels, but he has absolutely monstrous pre-6 gank pressure.
Jungle control - Defensively, you need a jungler that doesn't have too huge of a speed differential with Udyr (strike against GP and Jarvan). If you wanted to exert offensive control in the jungle, you'd want to think about specific synergies with your solo laners--Udyr's hard to fuck with on small camps, meaning that your biggest chance to be most disruptive is contesting his buffs, which is likely to turn into 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 fights. Admittedly, your laner selection is actually really good for this, as both Brand and Irelia are good in those types of small skirmishes, and Soraka ulti provides cross-map support, giving you a slight edge. All-in-all, you want a fast jungler that's not necessarily an amazing duelist, but a decent 2v2/3v3 skirmisher (Lee Sin or post-6 Amumu are decent here). Rammus is again ok here, though admittedly not the best.
Team-fights - You have 2 squishy carries that have absurd damage potential. You absolutely do not need to carry/anti-carry, because if you just allow them to sit back and throw their spells/autoattacks, they will outdamage the enemy carries by a wide margin (not to mention that Irelia is already has a superior anti-carry kit compared to most junglers). In this team-comp your jungler should be playing the 4th position role of initiator/defensive support. This is probably the weakest point of the Rammus pick, but honestly, a lot of "standard" jungle picks would not have done better here.
All in all, Rammus was probably not the greatest pick, but all things considered was probably not actually the worst possible pick for your team's needs. Incidentally, I actually feel like Maokai would probably have been the most balanced jungle pick with regard to your needs in all areas (strong pre-6 gank pressure, fast defensive clear speed, acceptable 2v2/3v3 skirmishing power, and great protective capabilities in teamfights), but I doubt that was a pick open to you.
EDIT: Nunu would have been great in all 3 areas as well, though his contribution to a 2v2/3v3 fight would probably be less stellar than Lee/Amumu/Maokai unless you get a killer ultimate off--unlikely when all the relevant laners have an interrupt for your ultimate.
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if you're going to pick kog and brand, 2 dps with no inherent escape, u better have semi-strong or strong peel
soraka is not that
janna or ali (sona is okay but given their comp not ideal) would have been great
in fact sona probably would have been better on THEIR team lol
there were no real targets for irelia to go for, making her kind of weak (ezreal can peel for himself very nicely and the others are just bad for her to jump on)
as long as you let kog autoattack in lategame fights while not getting your team aoe'd down by renek and kennen you should have been fine
maybe even replace irelia with a AP that can support him well later on like galio or zilean
both scale harder the stronger he becomes
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On October 05 2011 23:37 Juicyfruit wrote:
Mummy was to give our team initiation and he can force a gank into lanes that are typically annoying to gank because of double-stun combo which works perfectly with brand vs kennen and bot vs ezreal/taric.
I didn't want nocturne because we already picked Irelia and I dislike stacking too many single-target assassins unless it specifically counters their lineup (here it doesn't because their AP carry was kenyen and AD carry was ezreal).
You don't need a super strong duelist to maintain jungle control; the team can and should work together to parry jungle invasions. Carry junglers are strong when you have team-independent carries (like they did), but picking nocturne to compliment kogmaw and brand is just silly. Likewise, none of the duelist junglers could have worked in our lineup with the exception of trundle which our jungler does not own. A tank jungler was everything we needed, and it would have worked if their jungler didn't get far ahead so early.
Most of the champions everyone plays lack solid initiation capacities. Top needs to learn Galio and Cho in addition to the standard bruisers, one for initiation and the other for disruption, and both control space really well. We should try to field Ashe sometime to be able to start a fight more reliably and as a result we need to also learn how to deal with playing a very passive bot lane and still stay focused enough to deflect jungle invasions. Our mid needs a lot of work because BP needs to get to the point where he can feel comfortable picking Annie and initate with her at the right time. AP mid options for us feel way too constrained at this point when it's a fairly large lynchpin in bringing the team composition together along with the jungler. When we have fucking AP Janna as our most reliable mid you know there's a huge problem here.
And yes we will be playing together a lot more. Imo we should practice laning too. Ghandisauce should practice solotop with Chobz and needs to give more respect to lanes that while he might dominate somewhat early, but will be infinitely more productive than him in teamfights. We can't be counterpicking top lane every game with zero team synergy.
Ok I have a problem with the way you view solotop. You keep saying we lose because my terrible top picks. Irelia vs renekton was a farmfest until I had max w and I could autoattack him out of lane + take top tower as soon as renekton left. By the time teamfights started, I was stronger than him but blew up in both fights anyway because mid, bottom, and jungle combined are 1-10 or something and our team had lost every dragon and jungle buff. Next game akali vs nasus I kill him in lane and deny him farm until he lane switches, At that point bp and I should have switched lanes also but whatever I died to warwicks magicpen cheese(oh shit I died in lane? -_-). By the way, people need to stop dying in lane and astarwulf needs to stop dying in his own jungle. In teamfights that game I kill sion and ezreal 100 to 0 by myself. I'm doing my job but tap says my pick is bad because I can't kill tanky people. If I instagib 2 people in fights and we're still losing teamfights, then we are not losing because of my pick. AP janna was more useless vs their team than I was and jungle jarvan didnt do much either. We were even ahead, winning a fight with only ezreal barely getting away at one point. Then astarwulf fail smited baron and ezreal took it. Next game I choose garen and kill irelia 3 times in lane and kill top tower. You also say this was a terrible pick after the game, which makes no sense. When you have 100 cs as kog vs like 250 on cait, that is what is losing the game. It also hurts that BP dies every fight before he can even zilean ult anyone. You need roa on zilean, not deathcap rush. Also tap and rhav when you play support, please don't fill your inventories with random items. We need wards.
ANYWAY you already know I play chogath and about galio yeah thats fair, we should do more aoe comps anyway BUT me raping the shit out of top lane or learning galio doesn't do shit if the entire bottom half of the map fails. So stop dying in lane, stop dying in your own jungle. There's a reason jungle jarvan and rammus aren't used in competitive games.
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What we also need is a good bot lane pairing. We should have a constant AD+Support player always playing bot lanes together to practice. That way they know when the other likes to be aggressive, or likes to hang back, etc. etc.
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On October 06 2011 05:22 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 23:37 Juicyfruit wrote:
Mummy was to give our team initiation and he can force a gank into lanes that are typically annoying to gank because of double-stun combo which works perfectly with brand vs kennen and bot vs ezreal/taric.
I didn't want nocturne because we already picked Irelia and I dislike stacking too many single-target assassins unless it specifically counters their lineup (here it doesn't because their AP carry was kenyen and AD carry was ezreal).
You don't need a super strong duelist to maintain jungle control; the team can and should work together to parry jungle invasions. Carry junglers are strong when you have team-independent carries (like they did), but picking nocturne to compliment kogmaw and brand is just silly. Likewise, none of the duelist junglers could have worked in our lineup with the exception of trundle which our jungler does not own. A tank jungler was everything we needed, and it would have worked if their jungler didn't get far ahead so early.
Most of the champions everyone plays lack solid initiation capacities. Top needs to learn Galio and Cho in addition to the standard bruisers, one for initiation and the other for disruption, and both control space really well. We should try to field Ashe sometime to be able to start a fight more reliably and as a result we need to also learn how to deal with playing a very passive bot lane and still stay focused enough to deflect jungle invasions. Our mid needs a lot of work because BP needs to get to the point where he can feel comfortable picking Annie and initate with her at the right time. AP mid options for us feel way too constrained at this point when it's a fairly large lynchpin in bringing the team composition together along with the jungler. When we have fucking AP Janna as our most reliable mid you know there's a huge problem here.
And yes we will be playing together a lot more. Imo we should practice laning too. Ghandisauce should practice solotop with Chobz and needs to give more respect to lanes that while he might dominate somewhat early, but will be infinitely more productive than him in teamfights. We can't be counterpicking top lane every game with zero team synergy. Ok I have a problem with the way you view solotop. You keep saying we lose because my terrible top picks. Irelia vs renekton was a farmfest until I had max w and I could autoattack him out of lane + take top tower as soon as renekton left. By the time teamfights started, I was stronger than him but blew up in both fights anyway because mid, bottom, and jungle combined are 1-10 or something and our team had lost every dragon and jungle buff. Next game akali vs nasus I kill him in lane and deny him farm until he lane switches, At that point bp and I should have switched lanes also but whatever I died to warwicks magicpen cheese(oh shit I died in lane? -_-). By the way, people need to stop dying in lane and astarwulf needs to stop dying in his own jungle. In teamfights that game I kill sion and ezreal 100 to 0 by myself. I'm doing my job but tap says my pick is bad because I can't kill tanky people. If I instagib 2 people in fights and we're still losing teamfights, then we are not losing because of my pick. AP janna was more useless vs their team than I was and jungle jarvan didnt do much either. We were even ahead, winning a fight with only ezreal barely getting away at one point. Then astarwulf fail smited baron and ezreal took it. Next game I choose garen and kill irelia 3 times in lane and kill top tower. You also say this was a terrible pick after the game, which makes no sense. When you have 100 cs as kog vs like 250 on cait, that is what is losing the game. It also hurts that BP dies every fight before he can even zilean ult anyone. You need roa on zilean, not deathcap rush. Also tap and rhav when you play support, please don't fill your inventories with random items. We need wards. ANYWAY you already know I play chogath and about galio yeah thats fair, we should do more aoe comps anyway BUT me raping the shit out of top lane or learning galio doesn't do shit if the entire bottom half of the map fails. So stop dying in lane, stop dying in your own jungle. There's a reason jungle jarvan and rammus aren't used in competitive games.
I don't want this to be an issue, but the reason I rag on solotop picks a lot is because it tends to be one of our last picks usually, so I do expect that pick to be the one rounding the team up. If you were first or second pick it would never be an onus on you to pick well, sorry but that's just how it is.
There was nothing wrong with Irelia pick in the tournament game. In fact I said nothing about you all game long. That game was lost because of Udyr snowball and we couldn't hold it together till late-game. Plus they just straight up outplayed us as a team.
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Akali vs triple bruiser is a disaster. Here's how that game went:
Our team: Cait first pick
Their team: WW + Udyr
Our team: Janna + Taric
Their team: Sion + Nasus
Our team: Jarvan + Akali
Their team: Ezreal
We already first picked caitlyn before they picked WW + Udyr, so picking kogmaw was iffy. AP Janna was a bad pick. I would have EASILY picked casseiopia if BP knew how to play Cass because Cass is hella strong against melee heavy teams and we would have all the damage we needed to kill the tanks. That sucks. Unfortunately BP DID pick Janna and we ended up also taking taric to screw up bot lane (and we did), so at this it was pretty alarming that the last two picks had to be able to deal with their tank heavy teams somehow. My mistake here is taking taric when I should have just gone casseiopia and let BP support bot with Janna. This is pretty iffy too because we wouldn't have dominated early game to that extent if I weren't playing Taric.
Anyways, clearly the issue is the akali and jarvan picks since everything else came before their quad tanky + pseudotanky reveal. At this point I really really wanted Irelia top bad because she's the only one who can deal with all these bullshit bruisers in teamfights and Akali simply doesn't have the sustained firepower. Irelia with double support and caitlyn poking them could have outlasted the teamfight.
If we had a trundle jungle that would have been far better pick; Olaf would have worked as well since he farms fast and can eventually shred tanky champions while being very bruiser himself. Mummy could have worked too but that didn't occur to me as an option until it was too late.
Jarvan at least make SOME form of sense because of his passive and his armor shredding vs bruisers though.
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Third game the picks were:
First pick them: Cait
Our picks: Udyr, Zilean
Their picks: Kassadin, Irelia
Our picks: Taric, Kogmaw
Their picks: Mummy, Cow
Our pick: Garen
Third game, you last-picked Garen as the last pick when our team comp was Udyr, Zilean, Kogmaw and Taric. Again, our team wasn't very stellar but with a good last pick we can round this up fairly well; the reason I wanted Galio solotop was for initation. You didn't have Galio, too bad that's not your fault obviously. The problem was the Garen pick. We already have two bruisers with zero gap closers (Udyr and garen) vs an enemy team with caitlyn and kassadin. That's NOT going to work. The reason I got so heavily outfarmed is because they just kept grouping up for a push and then caitlyn would split off and farm a lane and we couldn't initiate on the 4 that were there. I can't do the same thing because they have shit like amumu and kassadin and can easily initate 5v4 on our team as soon as I break off, even at our tower. Repeat this for 15 minutes and that's how cait got so far ahead of me; she had nothing to worry about because we didn't have a champion that could punish her split pushing even if we were staring the 5v4 in the face.
Again, this isn't specifically your fault since the rest of our team comp didn't have initation either, but since you were the last pick, it was the last chance to fill the gap so to speak.
In restrospect, the best options for solotop were: gangplank (banned I think, but gp provides our team with initiation options) and can lane vs Irelia, or Jax (for pure late-game carrying power with zilean ult) and can lane vs Irelia. If I had enough time to think about it I would have probably asked for Jax, but given the time limit my mind got stuck on Galio.
I thought about Renekton too but I doubt that it would have been much better considering you smashed Irelia in lane as Garen. Still, given a second go I would have had you pick Jax for sure.
No hard feelings, but really, if you don't want me to fixate on your picks, don't be last pick  it's so easy to see that as the problem bra~
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On October 06 2011 06:05 dnastyx wrote:
What we also need is a good bot lane pairing. We should have a constant AD+Support player always playing bot lanes together to practice. That way they know when the other likes to be aggressive, or likes to hang back, etc. etc.
Who actually plays ad for TLB ^_^
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On October 06 2011 07:57 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 06:05 dnastyx wrote:
What we also need is a good bot lane pairing. We should have a constant AD+Support player always playing bot lanes together to practice. That way they know when the other likes to be aggressive, or likes to hang back, etc. etc. Who actually plays ad for TLB ^_^
I do =]
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Well you're never around so that explains it.
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EPT
