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United States47024 Posts
On September 09 2011 05:02 Mogwai wrote:
I'm arguing with the point of "WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA, DotA champs were so much more original and awesome!" And that's it. Riot could use some work and especially as the game is aging they need to cut back on champs, but DotA has fucking Leoric FFS. 3 Passives and a point and click stun, real champ design. I get really pissed at nostalgia driving people to irrationally dislike new shit because they have selective memory of old shit.
Incidentally, most of the hero designs I've been impressed with from DotA are the ones that entered the game AFTER I stopped playing. I made this clear on the last page--I have no problem with the vast majority of the champ pool, and a lot of the designs after the original 40 were pretty damn awesome. It's just that I'm disappointed with some of the recent champ designs, and I think putting more space between champ releases could help to flesh out more interesting champ designs (e.g. Talon and Monkey King having a whole interesting kit rather than 1 new mechanic and 3 regurgitated skills).
My quip about the power level being low compared to DotA inhibiting design space wasn't meant to be related to this discussion (I think at the very least, I have the right to my own opinion about the power level in the game--I won't try to force it onto other people, but I do think it contributes to one or more of the issues that are present in this game), but it somehow got rolled into this discussion.
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On September 09 2011 05:05 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 04:49 Southlight wrote:
Yea it does, it's more OP than red buff but you only hear about red buff change lol Imagine if red buff gave 62.5% crit and attack speed. People really underestimate the power of being able to almost completely ignore what would otherwise be 2-3 critical attributes. Fixing it is a nightmare though, it's so thoroughly ingrained in AP carry balance that they'll have 25%+ CDR and infinite mana.
Nah it wouldn't be too bad if you dropped the CDR on blue buff. You can't change the mana regen unless you also change the mana costs of champs like Heimer and Anivia, but just dropping the CDR really wouldn't throw very many APs off too hard. They would just maybe not be THE most dominating factor from lvl 6 to ~14 as they are now. But until the enemy tanks hit lvl ~14, fights typically are dominated by burst and not the sustained damage of APs.
I would totally support a blue buff nerf.
Well, a CDR nerf for the one who carries blue buff. The total value for the team should remain high somehow.
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On September 09 2011 05:16 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:05 Seuss wrote:On September 09 2011 04:49 Southlight wrote:
Yea it does, it's more OP than red buff but you only hear about red buff change lol Imagine if red buff gave 62.5% crit and attack speed. People really underestimate the power of being able to almost completely ignore what would otherwise be 2-3 critical attributes. Fixing it is a nightmare though, it's so thoroughly ingrained in AP carry balance that they'll have 25%+ CDR and infinite mana. Nah it wouldn't be too bad if you dropped the CDR on blue buff. You can't change the mana regen unless you also change the mana costs of champs like Heimer and Anivia, but just dropping the CDR really wouldn't throw very many APs off too hard. They would just maybe not be THE most dominating factor from lvl 6 to ~14 as they are now. But until the enemy tanks hit lvl ~14, fights typically are dominated by burst and not the sustained damage of APs. I would totally support a blue buff nerf.
You really underestimate how hard dropping the CDR would hurt. It would smack a lot of characters upside the head and it would quickly remind everyone how bad most CDR itemization options are.
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On September 09 2011 05:19 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:16 spinesheath wrote:On September 09 2011 05:05 Seuss wrote:On September 09 2011 04:49 Southlight wrote:
Yea it does, it's more OP than red buff but you only hear about red buff change lol Imagine if red buff gave 62.5% crit and attack speed. People really underestimate the power of being able to almost completely ignore what would otherwise be 2-3 critical attributes. Fixing it is a nightmare though, it's so thoroughly ingrained in AP carry balance that they'll have 25%+ CDR and infinite mana. Nah it wouldn't be too bad if you dropped the CDR on blue buff. You can't change the mana regen unless you also change the mana costs of champs like Heimer and Anivia, but just dropping the CDR really wouldn't throw very many APs off too hard. They would just maybe not be THE most dominating factor from lvl 6 to ~14 as they are now. But until the enemy tanks hit lvl ~14, fights typically are dominated by burst and not the sustained damage of APs. I would totally support a blue buff nerf. You really underestimate how hard dropping the CDR would hurt. It would smack a lot of characters upside the head and it would quickly remind everyone how bad most CDR itemization options are.
which characters?
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Orianna, Brand, Karma, Annie, Malzahar, Anivia, LeBlanc, Cassiopeia, Kassadin, Nidalee.
basically every AP who currently loves blue buff. Vlad and Ryze could adapt quickly because they both have viable build paths that get CDR. Kennen doesn't really give a fuck about blue, nor do Morde or Ramble or Akali. Karthus could probably deal with it too, though you'd be surprised how much you'd miss those Qs.
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Well the obvious solution to there not being any good CDR itemization is to make some good CDR itemization.
Or maybe people start buying Soul Shroud again.
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United States47024 Posts
I think blue dropping all the CDR is a bit much, but what if the CDR % gained from it didn't scale? As is it scales from 16-25%, and dropping the CDR entirely would have a noticeable effect on the speed of quite a few junglers.
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On September 09 2011 05:23 Mogwai wrote:
Orianna, Brand, Karma, Annie, Malzahar, Anivia, LeBlanc, Cassiopeia, Kassadin, Nidalee.
basically every AP who currently loves blue buff. Vlad and Ryze could adapt quickly because they both have viable build paths that get CDR. Kennen doesn't really give a fuck about blue, nor do Morde or Ramble or Akali. Karthus could probably deal with it too, though you'd be surprised how much you'd miss those Qs.
Dropping the CD wouldn't be too bad for these characters - I think it would hurt Karma the most because her mantra stacks would accumulate so much slower in mid game teamfights over dragon and other objectives. Orianna will still be a first ban, regardless of whether they further nerf her skills or change blue buff - she abuses bad positioning so hard that she would still be OP if they changed her W to do half the damage that it currently does.
I think simply reducing the duration of the blue buff (i think it's currently 120 seconds) would help, since teams that are heavily depending on a blue buff caster like Anivia will have a reduced period of strength where they can basically drop every spell non-stop and not worry about running oom.
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I really do agree that riot need some creativity with new champions.
As an old hon player (back in beta) - the biggest thing i miss in lol are epic or rememberable spells.
Some of it because of the mechanics like:
Tempest slowly drawing evrey hero to himself and dealing overtime while they are unable to move, or behemots huge uncrosable line, kind of like annvia wall but much bigger in length and does dmg. Malikens sword toss where he tosses his sword like a boomerang and can teleport at anytime to place of his sword...
Others are because of animation/sound:
Magmus ulti where lava springs all around him. Predators sounds - so great made they really feel some primal beast has just jumped on you and is about to ravage you...
Lol has dull spells, crappy animations and horrible sound of skills and anouncer(voice acting is superb though).
The only "rememberable" spell in lol is Nunu's ulti which even though it has great animation and potentialy great dmg is easily interuptable and you can flash/walk out of its radius 
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On September 09 2011 05:02 Mogwai wrote:
I'm arguing with the point of "WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA, DotA champs were so much more original and awesome!" And that's it. Riot could use some work and especially as the game is aging they need to cut back on champs, but DotA has fucking Leoric FFS. 3 Passives and a point and click stun, real champ design. I get really pissed at nostalgia driving people to irrationally dislike new shit because they have selective memory of old shit.
I see your Leoric and raise you Leoric and Sven.
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memorable is the word you're looking for.
anyway
Curse of the Sad Mummy, Idol of Durrand, Paranoia, Cataclysm, Finales Funkim, Crowstorm, Unstoppable Force, Summon Tibbers are all pretty epic in one way or another if you ask me. Their animations might not be as epic or w/e, I have no idea since I never played HoN, but there are still very powerful, very game changing abilities out there that just do cool things.
On September 09 2011 05:50 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:02 Mogwai wrote:
I'm arguing with the point of "WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA, DotA champs were so much more original and awesome!" And that's it. Riot could use some work and especially as the game is aging they need to cut back on champs, but DotA has fucking Leoric FFS. 3 Passives and a point and click stun, real champ design. I get really pissed at nostalgia driving people to irrationally dislike new shit because they have selective memory of old shit. I see your Leoric and raise you Leoric and Sven.
Hey now! Sven is 1 Passive, 2 Steroids, and a point and click AOE stun! That's way moar interesting, you get to press 3 buttons instead of 1 before you become a right-click melee-bot.
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The problem with flashy spells is that while it looks cool to watch its a pain in the ass to play with.
Teamfights can often already turn into an invisible mess as 4 different aoe effect and all sorts of sparks stack on top of eachother while a chogath fills half your screen.
Now imagine that with the effect you just described. You wouldnt see who is where and end up just rolling your face on the keyboard and see whats left after the particals die down.
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They made Sven's stun AoE?
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I never knew it as anything else. You targeted a dude and it had a small AoE centered on that dude iirc.
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On September 09 2011 05:43 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:23 Mogwai wrote:
Orianna, Brand, Karma, Annie, Malzahar, Anivia, LeBlanc, Cassiopeia, Kassadin, Nidalee.
basically every AP who currently loves blue buff. Vlad and Ryze could adapt quickly because they both have viable build paths that get CDR. Kennen doesn't really give a fuck about blue, nor do Morde or Ramble or Akali. Karthus could probably deal with it too, though you'd be surprised how much you'd miss those Qs. Dropping the CD wouldn't be too bad for these characters - I think it would hurt Karma the most because her mantra stacks would accumulate so much slower in mid game teamfights over dragon and other objectives. Orianna will still be a first ban, regardless of whether they further nerf her skills or change blue buff - she abuses bad positioning so hard that she would still be OP if they changed her W to do half the damage that it currently does. I think simply reducing the duration of the blue buff (i think it's currently 120 seconds) would help, since teams that are heavily depending on a blue buff caster like Anivia will have a reduced period of strength where they can basically drop every spell non-stop and not worry about running oom.
"Wouldn't be too bad" is enough to completely change the meta game. While blue buff doesn't have 100% uptime, I think you are really underestimating how much presence being able to cast 25% more spells affords a caster.
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I wouldn't drop all the CDR obviously. Make it 16 CDR flat as a first step for example. That barely even touches midgame performance.
Typically you have one of these blue buff hogging champs on each team, and they usually both sit mid. So if we assume the same picks, nothing really changes.
Potential issues arise when one of these blue buff reliant champs has to lane against someone who doesn't depend on blue too much and loses unless he gets blue. I don't see a whole lot of problematic matchups there. Mordekaiser and Ryze probably would cause the biggest issues.
On September 09 2011 05:59 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:43 HyperionDreamer wrote:On September 09 2011 05:23 Mogwai wrote:
Orianna, Brand, Karma, Annie, Malzahar, Anivia, LeBlanc, Cassiopeia, Kassadin, Nidalee.
basically every AP who currently loves blue buff. Vlad and Ryze could adapt quickly because they both have viable build paths that get CDR. Kennen doesn't really give a fuck about blue, nor do Morde or Ramble or Akali. Karthus could probably deal with it too, though you'd be surprised how much you'd miss those Qs. Dropping the CD wouldn't be too bad for these characters - I think it would hurt Karma the most because her mantra stacks would accumulate so much slower in mid game teamfights over dragon and other objectives. Orianna will still be a first ban, regardless of whether they further nerf her skills or change blue buff - she abuses bad positioning so hard that she would still be OP if they changed her W to do half the damage that it currently does. I think simply reducing the duration of the blue buff (i think it's currently 120 seconds) would help, since teams that are heavily depending on a blue buff caster like Anivia will have a reduced period of strength where they can basically drop every spell non-stop and not worry about running oom. "Wouldn't be too bad" is enough to completely change the meta game. While blue buff doesn't have 100% uptime, I think you are really underestimating how much presence being able to cast 25% more spells affords a caster.
I'm sure that we have quite a bunch of people here who wouldn't mind a change of the meta game.
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I don't even goddamn care about the metagame or the QQ by AP heroes whom are blatantly stupid at the moment when they get blue buff.
Take away the CD? I'd take away the mana recharge. It's preposterous how sustainable people become with just blue buff. Otherwise give red buff 80% life steal please. It's only fair.
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On September 09 2011 05:53 Mogwai wrote:memorable is the word you're looking for. anyway Curse of the Sad Mummy, Idol of Durrand, Paranoia, Cataclysm, Finales Funkim, Crowstorm, Unstoppable Force, Summon Tibbers are all pretty epic in one way or another if you ask me. Their animations might not be as epic or w/e, I have no idea since I never played HoN, but there are still very powerful, very game changing abilities out there that just do cool things. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 05:50 Southlight wrote:On September 09 2011 05:02 Mogwai wrote:
I'm arguing with the point of "WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA, DotA champs were so much more original and awesome!" And that's it. Riot could use some work and especially as the game is aging they need to cut back on champs, but DotA has fucking Leoric FFS. 3 Passives and a point and click stun, real champ design. I get really pissed at nostalgia driving people to irrationally dislike new shit because they have selective memory of old shit. I see your Leoric and raise you Leoric and Sven. Hey now! Sven is 1 Passive, 2 Steroids, and a point and click AOE stun! That's way moar interesting, you get to press 3 buttons instead of 1 before you become a right-click melee-bot.
I agree, both games have their cool ultimates and what not, I do really like a lot of the heroes in Hon/Dota a lot more though. Yes there are really really dull heroes in Hon/Dota, I can't believe Emerald Warden is a hero in Hon, that hero is a joke lol..., Sven/Hammerstorm being one as well. But then there are some really unique awesome heroes, I love Silouhette, Bombardier, Wildsoul, Bubbles, and several more that are just a lot of fun for me to play, and a lot different from anything else in the game, and the sad thing is, there is nothing like some of those heroes in LoL. I mean of course they didn't balance the game around having controllable units etc, so you can't really have an Ophelia/Chen in this game, wandering around with lizard and golem at lvl 4 smashing people's faces.
LoL is fun for other reasons than champ design, though there are a few fun ones of course, just nothing as unique and original as some of the dota/hon champs.
Watching a Bubbles execute a great initiation, going into shell, then pking out flawlessly, is really a lot more exciting for me than a Annies Stun initiation .
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Wasn't Dominion coming up today?
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On September 09 2011 06:02 Southlight wrote:
I don't even goddamn care about the metagame or the QQ by AP heroes whom are blatantly stupid at the moment when they get blue buff.
Take away the CD? I'd take away the mana recharge. It's preposterous how sustainable people become with just blue buff. Otherwise give red buff 80% life steal please. It's only fair.
As if every AD can't already full heal themselves in <20 seconds vs creeps by the end of midgame.
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EPT
