EPThot damn I'm a sexy invoker.
[Patch 1.0.0.124: Talon] General Discussion - Page 166
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
hot damn I'm a sexy invoker. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
On September 09 2011 04:05 broz0rs wrote: I have a item build question. I pick Tristana and go boots first in mid. I farm decently and pick up a kill. I end up with 1800 gold and I have to make a decision of what to buy. 1. 3 Doran's Blade 2. BF Sword (rush IE) help? I think this may apply to most ranged AD carries. I'd buy a Wriggles and then go for IE, since with Q you can delay atk speed items. That's how I play her, but I'm not even capable to play ranked now, I might be a bit wrong (for other AD carries I'll take a Zeal first (or even Shadow dancer if you get lotta kills/dragons) and then get IE). | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
In particular, if it's something like MK or Talon where they want to experiment with a single mechanic and end up tacking on some pretty boring, generic skills in the other 3 skill slots, why does that need to end up in the store and in the game? And if you're reaching the point where you're limited on new ideas (either by power level or by plain creativity) then there should be nothing wrong with stopping. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On September 09 2011 04:05 broz0rs wrote: I have a item build question. I pick Tristana and go boots first in mid. I farm decently and pick up a kill. I end up with 1800 gold and I have to make a decision of what to buy. 1. 3 Doran's Blade 2. BF Sword (rush IE) help? I think this may apply to most ranged AD carries. 3. 2 Dblades + Zerker's Greaves | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
On September 09 2011 04:05 broz0rs wrote: I have a item build question. I pick Tristana and go boots first in mid. I farm decently and pick up a kill. I end up with 1800 gold and I have to make a decision of what to buy. 1. 3 Doran's Blade 2. BF Sword (rush IE) help? I think this may apply to most ranged AD carries. probably mostly dependent on who you're laning against with other minor factors chiming in as well. against something with really high amounts of front loaded burst (these also tend to be pretty easy to gank for... see annie, brand etc) picking up 2-3 dorans and boots upgrade or component (zerks or merc or null mantle) is probably a good investment as the extra HP really helps to buffer a death due to just being there at less than 70% hp. against somebody who needs to harass you down a lot before going for the kill going BF is probably acceptable (i'm having trouble thinking of a good example right now, i feel that most of the popular mid laners are more of the former). however for just lanestaying power and dominance dorans are hard to match. other factors that you should chime in when making the decision: if you have a 1-2 level lead on the other person BF works simply because your level lead will give you the HP and armor stats that can give you some comfort room to work with as well as your opponents' skills doing less damage. also, if the choice between either makes it so that you are lacking wards and or pots against a sustain lane, go for the option that will allow you wards. no better way to lose an advantage in lane than to die. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
The champions were interesting because they were so far apart from anything else in the game. Their mechanics were unique and their kit made sense as a whole. List all the AP casters in LoL and try to see how different they are. Ranged ADs. Melee bruisers. They all share sort of the same but slightly different skillset here and there. But that's how they need to be for the game to be balanced. You basically need to build within archetypes, otherwise you end up with great champions and shit champions. I mean, you do now, but for different reasons that are easier to fix, like Eve or Shen. You have ranged and melee. There can't be anything else. You have bursty damage and sustained damage. There is no other bucket except for hybrid damage types like Ezreal who uses autos and abilities. Those are the basic types of combat in a game like this. So you have Ranged Burst (RB), Ranged Sustained (RS), Melee Burst (MB), Melee sustained (MS). Now, burst characters can't be too tough, otherwise there's no risk for them to run in and burst someone, as they'll just get out alive with no problem. Sustained damagers need to be tough or have good escape tools, because they need to do consistent damage, so they're going to be standing there for quite a bit. Champions can also sacrifice damage for control. RB is basically your mage type, then. AD or AP, these characters get their damage from landing abilities and hitting a bunch at once. They need an escape, as they're usually quite squishy. If they're too tough, then there's no disincentive to charging into close quarters and fighting that way, which would make them impossible to escape. RS are your standard AD carry like Trist or Cait. You stay back and pew pew, with abilities to supplement. Same about escapes as above, but it's usually ok for RS's to be stronger or better, as they'll be in combat longer than RB, who just combo and run. MB are your assassins. They do a bunch of damage quickly, but are squishy. Alternatively, you can have someone like Morde who is tough bursty, but is so slow and immobile that it's ok. They generally need a gap closer and escape, unless they're the tough type. MS need to be pretty tough, as they'll be standing in melee for a long time. These are your tanky dps or straight tanks, depending on how tanky/damage-y they are. Their abilities are usually there to help them stay in one spot longer and to get to where they're going by making the gap easier to close. And then there's support, who can be varied, but are generally broken down into preventative (shields or offensive CC) or reactive (heals, mostly). So in the end, you have these class types: Burst ranged with high damage and no control/escapes Burst ranged with lower damage (still good) and amazing control/escapes Burst ranged somewhere inbetween Sustained ranged with high damage and no control/escapes Sustained ranged with lower damage (still good) and amazing control/escapes Sustained ranged somewhere inbetween Burst melee that's tanky, but immobile Burst melee that's mobile, but squishy Sustained melee that's more tough (Tanks) Sustained melee that's more damaging (Bruisers) Support with shields/CC Support with healing capabilities or survival tools 12 types. Considering there's 82 (83? whatever) champions, I think they're well varied. You can't really fill many roles outside of the ones I've just listed, unless you mix some together (i.e. Lux, who can burst and support with CC). I think there's enough differences, even if they seem minor. I'd rather have a lot of champions that fill the same role and play differently than ~12 champions that are all different, but then you have no options if you don't like one of them. Imagine if, say, Garen was the only Bruiser. If you don't like his playstyle, tough, you don't get to play a Bruiser. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Southlight
United States11766 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
You're sort of mistaking what the issue is. Distinguishing champs across all classes isn't the problem. Distinguishing champs WITHIN classes is. The question isn't "what makes Brand's ROLE different?", but "what makes Brand interesting and fun to play in his role?" The only two possible answers I can think of to that are "he does a buttload of damage" (hardly convincing) and "he's skillshot-dependent and combo-centric" (which does not distinguish him from other heroes in that role, as there are other existing casters that are already skillshot/combo centered). It's not just that "he does a buttload of damage", it's that "he does a buttload of damage thanks to his combo-centric style and sacrifices mobility and escape mechanisms because of it". Compare him to Anivia. They both do combos and are bursty, but Anivia has waaaay more control and survivability, while Brand makes up for that lack by having waaay more damage. I prefer Brand's style simply because I like charging in and blowing shit up rather than controlling them into a corner. Compare Shaco to Akali. Bursty melee characters that are squishy, have some sort of stealth, a teleport, and can slow enemies. However, even though they have empirically a similar kit, they play much differently thanks to just how their abilities work together. We talked about it a bit in the Ezreal thread, but many of the AD carries play differently, thanks to just how they're made. Even though they all want to sit in and auto, none of them are quite the same. Trist, Cait and Ashe like to sit back and auto, but Trist can have moments of extreme burst, Ashe has great control with slows and her stun, and Cait has much better zoning options with traps and her crazy range + jump. They all have the same idea, but much different implementations. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 09 2011 04:38 Mogwai wrote: His abilities have increased effects from landing them in combination with one another. There actually isn't another hero who uses that sort of mechanic. Sure, everyone wants to hit their skill shots, but the closest thing to his spells interactions with each other is Anivia's E, which is a much more boring implementation of the mechanic. Granted, this mechanic ends up being somewhat lost in the clusterfuck of him facerolling his skills, but that's what they were aiming for and it's admirable to an extent even if the result is just a fucktarded firemang who just casts all his shit at your team and they all die. It's admirable that they released a champion that had wasted potential instead of screwing the 2-week release cycle and properly getting his combo mechanics to be something special? | ||
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Southlight
United States11766 Posts
On September 09 2011 04:41 TheYango wrote: It's admirable that they released a champion that had wasted potential instead of screwing the 2-week release cycle and properly getting his combo mechanics to be something special? On September 09 2011 04:39 Southlight wrote: Honestly a lot of archetypes play very differently. The real issue is with AP casters, whom get diluted because of blue buff and the fact that you can't distinguish AoE from AoE. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On September 09 2011 04:39 Southlight wrote: Honestly a lot of archetypes play very differently. The real issue is with AP casters, whom get diluted because of blue buff and the fact that you can't distinguish AoE from AoE. Blue buff really needs to be changed, it's OP as shit. On September 09 2011 04:41 TheYango wrote: It's admirable that they released a champion that had wasted potential instead of screwing the 2-week release cycle and properly getting his combo mechanics to be something special? no, it's admirable to an extent that they gave him a mechanic that has potential. The "to an extent" part is because it doesn't really show through much. w/e, this argument is stupid, I think I'm done. | ||
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Southlight
United States11766 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 09 2011 04:39 Southlight wrote: Honestly a lot of archetypes play very differently. The real issue is with AP casters, whom get diluted because of blue buff and the fact that you can't distinguish AoE from AoE. Considering that this whole discussion started based on the fact that Riven sounds too similar to Xin Zhao and Irelia (whom many people already consider to be too similar to one another), and it very quickly came to the same issues on Monkey King and Talon, who don't really bring anything other than testing a singular mechanic, I don't think you can say this issue is isolated to AP casters. On September 09 2011 04:48 Mogwai wrote: no, it's admirable to an extent that they gave him a mechanic that has potential. The "to an extent" part is because it doesn't really show through much. w/e, this argument is stupid, I think I'm done. Personally I'm confused about your standpoint because it was just 2 pages ago where you were saying as well that they should ditch the 2-week patch/champion release cycle in favor of a longer one (which is exactly what I'M saying). It seems like we have the same general goal, but you're arguing with the specific examples I chose to use of where Riot could stand to achieve better design by releasing champions less often. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
I mean MK was really kinda boring in all honesty. When they previewed him I was hella excited 'cause well...it's fucking Sun Wukong. Then on release I was disappoint. Talon's kinda the same. He's a melee burster, which is kinda new-ish but there's really not all that much about him that's super unique or a wow factor. An example of a great champ design in terms of uniqueness would be shit like Oriana. Sure, she's probably OP as hell atm, but she was really really unique. It's not so much the archetype or category the champs fit in or even similarity, it's more about their kits and how their kits are distinguished from other champs. Take MK for example, he has a really uninspired Q - it's basically a single target deal extra damage spell of which LoL has a million. His W is pretty cool I suppose, although on implementation there are several issues with it. His E is pretty much a generic gap closer. His R is Garen spin that does something extra 'cause it's an ult. Basically, his kit is boring. On the topic of Riven, from what I got, she sounds more like Udyr-style play where you smash your face into your keyboard and get results :O | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On September 09 2011 04:49 TheYango wrote: Considering that this whole discussion started based on the fact that Riven sounds too similar to Xin Zhao and Irelia (whom many people already consider to be too similar to one another), and it very quickly came to the same issues on Monkey King and Talon, who don't really bring anything other than testing a singular mechanic, I don't think you can say this issue is isolated to AP casters. People who complain about Xin and Irelia being too similar are retards. OMG, Asians with dash attacks and healing off of attacks, they must be the same! I mean, seriously, the Melee AD Spectrum is awesomely diverse and I think the fact that Xin and Irelia are probably the most similar set of 2 characters from this list: Xin Zhao Irelia Garen Udyr Warwick Pantheon Jarman Talon Wu Kong Jax Tryndamere Master Yi Renekton Nasus Dr. Mundo Olaf Nocturne Is an incredible testament to the diversity among Melee DPS characters. On September 09 2011 04:49 TheYango wrote: Personally I'm confused about your standpoint because it was just 2 pages ago where you were saying as well that they should ditch the 2-week patch/champion release cycle in favor of a longer one. It seems like we have the same general goal, but you're arguing with the specific examples I chose to use of where Riot could stand to gain by releasing champions less often. I'm arguing with the point of "WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA, DotA champs were so much more original and awesome!" And that's it. Riot could use some work and especially as the game is aging they need to cut back on champs, but DotA has fucking Leoric FFS. 3 Passives and a point and click stun, real champ design. I get really pissed at nostalgia driving people to irrationally dislike new shit because they have selective memory of old shit. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On September 09 2011 04:49 Southlight wrote: Yea it does, it's more OP than red buff but you only hear about red buff change lol Imagine if red buff gave 62.5% crit and attack speed. People really underestimate the power of being able to almost completely ignore what would otherwise be 2-3 critical attributes. Fixing it is a nightmare though, it's so thoroughly ingrained in AP carry balance that they'll have 25%+ CDR and infinite mana. | ||
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