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On September 09 2011 03:03 broz0rs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:47 Mogwai wrote:
my hope is that they change the champion development cycle to 1 month with Season 2. Just my hope... Then RIOT's strategic model of making players spend all their IP (to tempt buying RP) will be severely weakened. This begs the question, how fast (in days) can TLers grind 6300 IP?
Honestly, I think they need to exploit the new player market for RP more than trying to get sustainable money from people who have all the champs and are trying to get each new champ to keep all of them. At the rate the game is growing, they can just accept that old players will be at a point where they can just get what they need with IP and instead focus on the players who are a couple years late and are thus missing a massive chunk of champions.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 09 2011 02:46 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Well they could make more champions like Vlad that have alternate resources that make them incredibly hard to balance. I like those a lot more than copies [/sarcasm].
Eventually they'll run out of ideas. How much more creative can you get when you already have a hundred different champions?
I think part of the issue is that when the power level of the game is generally low, it limits the sorts of things you can design, because a lot of innovative mechanics are fairly binary in terms of their power.
Look at, say, Invoker in DotA. What's his defining trait? "This guy has 10 different abilities, when every other hero has 4." You couldn't possibly import a concept like that into LoL, because with 10 different abilities, they'd either all be boring, or the hero would have way too much utility. If you look at the power-utility balance, the fact that Riot generally wants things to be low on the power scale (so the game has a slow enough pace for casual player to follow) means that they're limited on how much interesting stuff any one champ can have on the utility scale, because otherwise a utility-focused champ with that much interesting stuff would be OP compared to power-focused champ that's all damage.
On September 09 2011 02:52 clickrush wrote:
on the new champ is same as old shit dicussion: I dont agree with your observation. Most new champs are pretty original. Mb not each one of their abilities but rather in their role and playstile. For example wukong and talon are called generic but they are not. I think their roles are unique and fun. I think they do a great job apart from the fotm-based balancing but they are just too fucking fast with their releases so nothing can really settle down for long enough.
I disagree with that.
Personally I feel like we sort of hit a wall around Brand--where, when you ask the question "What is this guy's defining trait?", the answer is "He's a nuker that does a fkton of damage and nothing else really." When you get to designs like that, it's time to stop.
How would you even answer that question for MK or Talon? I can't think of any real trait that stands out as "this is what defines this champ in comparison to others" for those two.
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im pretty sure invoker couldn't be in lol because a hero with 10 different abilities is obnoxious since you need to have run him repeatedly to have any sense of the counterplay for his spells. Maybe that's an issue with the f2p system - if you don't understand a hero, you can't just pick him and play him until you do - but im pretty sure it's unrelated to power level. There are plenty of "what the fuck is that op bullshit" abilities like poppy's ult.
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On September 09 2011 02:43 57 Corvette wrote:
Well, according to the official forums, Riven is going to be a copy of Xin Zhao, with his Q and E reversed.
Of course they are just being pessimistic, but what can they really do with this character that is original?
Most of the characters recently just seem like copies of previous champions...
I thought we already had a female Xin.
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On September 09 2011 03:27 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:43 57 Corvette wrote:
Well, according to the official forums, Riven is going to be a copy of Xin Zhao, with his Q and E reversed.
Of course they are just being pessimistic, but what can they really do with this character that is original?
Most of the characters recently just seem like copies of previous champions... I thought we already had a female Xin.
Her name is Irelia, and she's very please to meet.. er.... be killing you.
Also, regarding minimap - I have it on the left because of bw. I didn't know you could flip it until about 2 weeks ago, and I swear my map awareness went up by 100% when I moved it to the left.
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On September 09 2011 03:15 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:46 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Well they could make more champions like Vlad that have alternate resources that make them incredibly hard to balance. I like those a lot more than copies [/sarcasm].
Eventually they'll run out of ideas. How much more creative can you get when you already have a hundred different champions? I think part of the issue is that when the power level of the game is generally low, it limits the sorts of things you can design, because a lot of innovative mechanics are fairly binary in terms of their power. Look at, say, Invoker in DotA. What's his defining trait? "This guy has 10 different abilities, when every other hero has 4." You couldn't possibly import a concept like that into LoL, because with 10 different abilities, they'd either all be boring, or the hero would have way too much utility. If you look at the power-utility balance, the fact that Riot generally wants things to be low on the power scale (so the game has a slow enough pace for casual player to follow) means that they're limited on how much interesting stuff any one champ can have on the utility scale, because otherwise a utility-focused champ with that much interesting stuff would be OP compared to power-focused champ that's all damage.
Invoker had a period of being a massive balance issue for DotA as well...
Anyway the reason an Invoker like character isn't in LoL has nothing to do with power really. It's more about just being able to follow what's going on. Invoker was the type of character that you would be learning in -arem games and you'd get him and all your veteran friends would just be like... "uhhh, fuck it, just trade with me." It's simply a complexity thing, nothing to do with power.
You always seem to bash where Riot's putting the power level of the game and how it limits them, but it just feels like a retarded argument to me. I don't want bullshit like a 13 second silence or high enough passive stun chance on basic attacks that you can just stunlock with auto-attacks and other crazy DotA bullshit that forced them to introduce other broken bullshit just to counterbalance the existing broken bullshit. I don't care if that means there's less variety because now we can't make the guy with the 8 second global Silence, because sorta like what Utah's saying, bullshit moves are bullshit moves and should be treated as such regardless of greater balance.
On September 09 2011 03:15 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 02:52 clickrush wrote:
on the new champ is same as old shit dicussion: I dont agree with your observation. Most new champs are pretty original. Mb not each one of their abilities but rather in their role and playstile. For example wukong and talon are called generic but they are not. I think their roles are unique and fun. I think they do a great job apart from the fotm-based balancing but they are just too fucking fast with their releases so nothing can really settle down for long enough. I disagree with that. Personally I feel like we sort of hit a wall around Brand--where, when you ask the question "What is this guy's defining trait?", the answer is "He's a nuker that does a fkton of damage and nothing else really." When you get to designs like that, it's time to stop. How would you even answer that question for MK or Talon? I can't think of any real trait that stands out as "this is what defines this champ in comparison to others" for those two.
Brand's mechanic was that he was a skill shot based combo mage. I hate the stupid chartacter, but to say that he introduced nothing new over say Annie is just retarded.
MK and Talon were both new experiments in how to make Stealth less frustrating to deal with and both have some cool little intricacies to their kits. Again, I'm not really a fan of either of these characters, but to say that they add nothing new is just silly, you might as well say they haven't released a truly interesting character since Karma.
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I disagree with that.
Personally I feel like we sort of hit a wall around Brand--where, when you ask the question "What is this guy's defining trait?", the answer is "He's a nuker that does a fkton of damage and nothing else really." When you get to designs like that, it's time to stop.
How would you even answer that question for MK or Talon? I can't think of any real trait that stands out as "this is what defines this champ in comparison to others" for those two.
Then maybe you're just refusing to look. Morde is interesting thanks to his health/shield system and bursty AP style, which is different from most bruisers who use mana, mostly Auto, and are AD. It's a small difference, but it's noticeable in a lot of ways.
Brand is interesting because he's so well rounded. He has good AoE, good single target burst, and a fairly reliable CC. Most champs only have one or another, and Brand makes up for it by having basically no escape.
Talon... is pretty generic assassin, to be fair. I feel his mobility and stealth are defining for him, but he doesn't do it any better than anyone else. His Rake is pretty cool.
But really, you can say that about anything. Look at SC2, for instance. The Zergling and Zealot are kinda the same unit, except the Zealot is tougher and more expensive and the Zergling is weaker but you can mass them. They both have speed upgrades and serve more or less as "meat shields". Ultras are the same, except tougher and without speed.
It's nearly impossible nowadays to come up with an original anything. The LoL champs have been good because they're different enough to have a special feel when playing someone else, even of the same type. A lot of AD carries have the same overall gameplan (strong AA with abilities to supplement), but play differently to feel new and rewarding.
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This thread + forum moves so fast now I can't keep up 
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On September 09 2011 00:57 Haemonculus wrote:^ That usually means the other team doesn't have the champion. No sense banning them if the other team can't pick them anyway.
Don't know about that. Tried to ban Mordekaiser yesterday in ranked, but I couldn't find him. Even typed his name in to no avail. Enemy first picks Morde.
Real.
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Hey guys, got a simple question I've been wondering about as I watch streams/video guides. When I see people jungling they normally target the largest creep first, such as the blue buff golem and red lizard. Is there a reason for this? In my sc2 head I see killing the smaller creeps as guaranteed damage and a reduction in the dps hitting me sooner.
Hopefully this isn't really obvious but I tried googling and the jungling threads  Also, I was thinking of opening a simple questions, simple answers thread like they have in sc2 and dota. Thoughts? May be more appropriate than in the general discussion.
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I'm personally appalled by how unoriginal most champion designs are.
When I looked at DotA heroes, I had at least 10 - 15 different champs I wanted to play at any given time. Almost every champ had a defining skill or combo that was fun to execute and play around, and wacky mechanics were commonplace. Considering they achieved that by heavily tweaking an existing engine, and didn't have a say in what mechanics the game already came with, I'm sad to see rehashes in LoL, where the engine was built ground-up for this specific genre.
I haven't played DotA in more than 6 years, and just off the top of my head I remember Puck, Leshrac, Phantom Lancer, Bristleback, Spiritbreaker, Pudge, Axe, Necrolyte, Witch Doctor, Ursa...
Where are the fun as shit champs to play as?
It feels to me that their own rules for creating champions are holding them back. They keep creating champs based on the same stereotypes, with the same kind of generic abilities.
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On September 09 2011 03:40 mordek wrote:
Hey guys, got a simple question I've been wondering about as I watch streams/video guides. When I see people jungling they normally target the largest creep first, such as the blue buff golem and red lizard. Is there a reason for this? In my sc2 head I see killing the smaller creeps as guaranteed damage and a reduction in the dps hitting me sooner.
The small creeps tickle, the big ones hurt. If you kill the small ones first you take more damage.
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United States47024 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [spoilered cuz this is long as hell] +On September 09 2011 03:33 Mogwai wrote:
You always seem to bash where Riot's putting the power level of the game and how it limits them, but it just feels like a retarded argument to me. I don't want bullshit like a 13 second silence or high enough passive stun chance on basic attacks that you can just stunlock with auto-attacks and other crazy DotA bullshit that forced them to introduce other broken bullshit just to counterbalance the existing broken bullshit. I don't care if that means there's less variety because now we can't make the guy with the 8 second global Silence, because sorta like what Utah's saying, bullshit moves are bullshit moves and should be treated as such regardless of greater balance. The thing is, when everything is broken bullshit it's FUN. Sure people whine about balance, but come on? People do that already! Nothing's going to stop that. I shouldn't need to explain why everything being broken as fuck makes a good game, because everyone should have enough experience with games where it's proven to add to the experience. But if someone here has the ability to make the appropriate mods, we could try playing a modded BW where mines do 50 damage, where DTs reveal on attack, where Dark Swarm is 50% damage reduction from ranged rather than complete invulnerability, etc. Because lets be clear, a large number of the mechanics in Brood War are "bullshit", made fun and exciting by the fact that everything is bullshit. On September 09 2011 03:33 Mogwai wrote:
Brand's mechanic was that he was a skill shot based combo mage. I hate the stupid chartacter, but to say that he introduced nothing new over say Annie is just retarded. Wasn't that what AP Ezreal was supposed to be? On September 09 2011 03:33 Mogwai wrote:
MK and Talon were both new experiments in how to make Stealth less frustrating to deal with and both have some cool little intricacies to their kits. Again, I'm not really a fan of either of these characters, but to say that they add nothing new is just silly, you might as well say they haven't released a truly interesting character since Karma. Lee Sin? On September 09 2011 03:37 Requizen wrote:
Then maybe you're just refusing to look. Morde is interesting thanks to his health/shield system and bursty AP style, which is different from most bruisers who use mana, mostly Auto, and are AD. It's a small difference, but it's noticeable in a lot of ways.
MK = Monkey King, not Mordekaiser. On September 09 2011 03:37 Requizen wrote:
Brand is interesting because he's so well rounded. He has good AoE, good single target burst, and a fairly reliable CC. Most champs only have one or another, and Brand makes up for it by having basically no escape. So basically, he basically fills a hole that's covered in one way or another by Annie, Malzahar, Anivia, or Lux? On September 09 2011 03:37 Requizen wrote:
It's nearly impossible nowadays to come up with an original anything. The LoL champs have been good because they're different enough to have a special feel when playing someone else, even of the same type. A lot of AD carries have the same overall gameplan (strong AA with abilities to supplement), but play differently to feel new and rewarding. Then I'd rather have them stop than regurgitate old stuff. On September 09 2011 03:37 Requizen wrote:
But really, you can say that about anything. Look at SC2, for instance. The Zergling and Zealot are kinda the same unit, except the Zealot is tougher and more expensive and the Zergling is weaker but you can mass them. They both have speed upgrades and serve more or less as "meat shields". Ultras are the same, except tougher and without speed.
This is actually one of my beefs with SC2. SC1 retained a distinct difference between the Zergling and the Zealot based on the fact that the Zealot was often more of a meat shield while the pure DPS efficiency of the Zergling had it play as a core damage unit in most relevant Zerg compositions. But that's getting way off topic.
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On September 09 2011 03:42 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 03:40 mordek wrote:
Hey guys, got a simple question I've been wondering about as I watch streams/video guides. When I see people jungling they normally target the largest creep first, such as the blue buff golem and red lizard. Is there a reason for this? In my sc2 head I see killing the smaller creeps as guaranteed damage and a reduction in the dps hitting me sooner. The small creeps tickle, the big ones hurt. If you kill the small ones first you take more damage.
Thanks, I had a feeling it may come down to the numbers like that.
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On September 09 2011 03:37 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +I disagree with that.
Personally I feel like we sort of hit a wall around Brand--where, when you ask the question "What is this guy's defining trait?", the answer is "He's a nuker that does a fkton of damage and nothing else really." When you get to designs like that, it's time to stop.
How would you even answer that question for MK or Talon? I can't think of any real trait that stands out as "this is what defines this champ in comparison to others" for those two. Then maybe you're just refusing to look. Morde is interesting thanks to his health/shield system and bursty AP style, which is different from most bruisers who use mana, mostly Auto, and are AD. It's a small difference, but it's noticeable in a lot of ways. Brand is interesting because he's so well rounded. He has good AoE, good single target burst, and a fairly reliable CC. Most champs only have one or another, and Brand makes up for it by having basically no escape. Talon... is pretty generic assassin, to be fair. I feel his mobility and stealth are defining for him, but he doesn't do it any better than anyone else. His Rake is pretty cool. But really, you can say that about anything. Look at SC2, for instance. The Zergling and Zealot are kinda the same unit, except the Zealot is tougher and more expensive and the Zergling is weaker but you can mass them. They both have speed upgrades and serve more or less as "meat shields". Ultras are the same, except tougher and without speed. It's nearly impossible nowadays to come up with an original anything. The LoL champs have been good because they're different enough to have a special feel when playing someone else, even of the same type. A lot of AD carries have the same overall gameplan (strong AA with abilities to supplement), but play differently to feel new and rewarding.
I think by MK he meant monkey king not mordekaiser l0l
skillshot ap nukers: lux, morg, etc. share quite a few similarities (with 1 shield instead of a point and click nuke) and different ults. when you look at the three actually they're quite similar. of course they all play differently due to the passives and the ults themselves, but i do think that there is definetly some room for improvement in champion design
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On September 09 2011 03:41 Lanzoma wrote:
I'm personally appalled by how unoriginal most champion designs are.
When I looked at DotA heroes, I had at least 10 - 15 different champs I wanted to play at any given time. Almost every champ had a defining skill or combo that was fun to execute and play around, and wacky mechanics were commonplace. Considering they achieved that by heavily tweaking an existing engine, and didn't have a say in what mechanics the game already came with, I'm sad to see rehashes in LoL, where the engine was built ground-up for this specific genre.
I haven't played DotA in more than 6 years, and just off the top of my head I remember Puck, Leshrac, Phantom Lancer, Bristleback, Spiritbreaker, Pudge, Axe, Necrolyte, Witch Doctor, Ursa...
Where are the fun as shit champs to play as?
It's subjective. Period. The end. Seriously.
Spirit Breaker is 2 passives, 1 extremely passive active ability and a blink strike on like a 60+ second CD. Interesting? The fuck are you talking about? The whole reason he was fun was because it was funny as shit stunlocking people after dashing at 1,000,000 speed across the whole map.
Axe is just funny because pubs would be trying to creep block on their way to lane and you'd come out with a stout shield and tank their minion wave to get massive counterattack procs and doublekill first blood.
I dunno man, in DotA I just wanted to play Invoker every game. Everyone else was boring as balls.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 09 2011 03:54 Mogwai wrote:
It's subjective. Period. The end. Seriously.
Spirit Breaker is 2 passives, 1 extremely passive active ability and a blink strike on like a 60+ second CD. Interesting? The fuck are you talking about? The whole reason he was fun was because it was funny as shit stunlocking people after dashing at 1,000,000 speed across the whole map.
Axe is just funny because pubs would be trying to creep block on their way to lane and you'd come out with a stout shield and tank their minion wave to get massive counterattack procs and doublekill first blood.
I dunno man, in DotA I just wanted to play Invoker every game. Everyone else was boring as balls.
The thing is, DotA sort of has an excuse in that there was a lot of pretty simple shit they had to use just when they were trying to get shit to WORK. Pretty much all the "boring" hero designs date back to when nobody had any fucking clue what they were doing. But after Icefrog got his shit together, most of the hero designs have been pretty damn good.
LoL is working with the fact that Guinsoo's coming off his DotA background, that they already imported most of the generic hero kits, and the fact that they've got a much more stringent approval process before heroes get out the door (or at least they should, given how many people are working on it). And to their credit, a lot of the post-release heroes have great unique designs. IMO every single hero released from Udyr to Kennen (Udyr, Nidalee, Poppy, Gragas, Pantheon, Mordekaiser, Ezreal, Shen, Kennen) has something that defines them and makes them cool. Even after that there have still been some great hits here and there. It's just recently in particular a lot of them feel more stale.
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The champions were interesting because they were so far apart from anything else in the game. Their mechanics were unique and their kit made sense as a whole.
List all the AP casters in LoL and try to see how different they are. Ranged ADs. Melee bruisers. They all share sort of the same but slightly different skillset here and there.
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I have a item build question.
I pick Tristana and go boots first in mid. I farm decently and pick up a kill. I end up with 1800 gold and I have to make a decision of what to buy.
1. 3 Doran's Blade
2. BF Sword (rush IE)
help? I think this may apply to most ranged AD carries.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Just to make a comment about Invoker. While there's not necessarily an issue with a champion with more than 4 skills (although balancing and GUI would be an issue!) the main reason Riot would never make Invoker (in his current form) is because of the way you access his skills.
As far as the designers see it, his method of using skills is simply a bad user interface for 10 skills. Having to memorise all the combinations of buttons and what skill they correspond to take skill, but that is because you need skill to compensate for a limited user interface. It is basically an artificial skill ceiling. Their view is that skill should not be based around how many button combinations you can memorise, but your ability to use buttons correctly. If there was a suitable replacement, there would very well be potential for an Invoker in LoL.
The current philosophy is that with each champion, you should be able to "feel"something unique. (No Pedobear Annie jokes please.) Kassadin is a great examples of a champion where you can just feel the different playstyles that's fun. Some other champions is more debatable. But Kass is a case study of a unique, fun champion done right.
Let the QWER-faceroll jokes begin.
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EPT
