EPTI guess I won't reach real plat then T_T
[Patch 1.0.0.124: Talon] General Discussion - Page 134
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Qualm
721 Posts
I guess I won't reach real plat then T_T | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On September 05 2011 22:51 Craton wrote: If you're giving a lesser played mode the higher rewards, then you're absolutely taking something away. The game doesn't exist for the "tournament scene" -- it exists for the everyday player. That's how a business works. If you try and marginalize the majority of your players, then you're going to fail. The fact that a tournament scene evolved out of the game is icing on the cake and something that will help LoL grow, but it is absolutely not the core of the game. In other words, Riot shouldn't be spending 5 million on a tournament scene at all because it's simply not how everyday players play and marginalizes them by rewarding only a tiny subset of players. Of course you could rationalize it as advertising but honestly that's one expensive advertising campaign. Less has been spent on superbowl ads. That much advertising for video game tournaments is unheard of up to this point. But I find your whole marginalization argument to be BS. WoW is about the gear so if only the top 5v5 players can get the best than it's a big deal, after all it's also gear that helps you PVP better. Yet you're getting all whiny over a few extra cosmetic awards that amount to new colors on your profile page and maybe a skin that might turn out as ugly as PAX Sivir on a champ you don't play anyways, not to mention that these rewards could be fine tuned well enough so that even casual arranged 5s players could get a few at the end of the season if they wanted to. You also pretend that the current awards don't already "marginalize" the playerbase. I've got news for you: most people don't play ranked at all. All they're getting is a Kayle skin. Over half of people who *are* playing ranked aren't even getting the crummy copper border award and a quarter or less are getting the Jarman skin. You warn of solo queue marginalization yet you don't even mention that people playing mostly normals like myself didn't even get the dignity of having our stats tracked despite our protest. Still, in that time LoL has still grown worldwide to WoW levels of players despite this obvious marginalization and devaluing of unranked that affects the majority of LoL's playerbase! If I was actually suggesting more IP gain for arranged 5v5 you might possibly have a point. After all, IP is the carrot on the stick for LoL the same way gear was for WoW. But this talk of extra cosmetic rewards making solo queue players feel bad is just a stupid pile of utter crap. | ||
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matthewfoulkes
United Kingdom246 Posts
On September 06 2011 00:59 phyvo wrote: In other words, Riot shouldn't be spending 5 million on a tournament scene at all because it's simply not how everyday players play and marginalizes them by rewarding only a tiny subset of players. Of course you could rationalize it as advertising but honestly that's one expensive advertising campaign. Less has been spent on superbowl ads. That much advertising for video game tournaments is unheard of up to this point. But I find your whole marginalization argument to be BS. WoW is about the gear so if only the top 5v5 players can get the best than it's a big deal, after all it's also gear that helps you PVP better. Yet you're getting all whiny over a few extra cosmetic awards that amount to new colors on your profile page and maybe a skin that might turn out as ugly as PAX Sivir on a champ you don't play anyways, not to mention that these rewards could be fine tuned well enough so that even casual arranged 5s players could get a few at the end of the season if they wanted to. You also pretend that the current awards don't already "marginalize" the playerbase. I've got news for you: most people don't play ranked at all. All they're getting is a Kayle skin. Over half of people who *are* playing ranked aren't even getting the crummy copper border award and a quarter or less are getting the Jarman skin. You warn of solo queue marginalization yet you don't even mention that people playing mostly normals like myself didn't even get the dignity of having our stats tracked despite our protest. Still, in that time LoL has still grown worldwide to WoW levels of players despite this obvious marginalization and devaluing of unranked that affects the majority of LoL's playerbase! If I was actually suggesting more IP gain for arranged 5v5 you might possibly have a point. After all, IP is the carrot on the stick for LoL the same way gear was for WoW. But this talk of extra cosmetic rewards making solo queue players feel bad is just a stupid pile of utter crap. All good points i feel, but it holds true that this game is designed for arranged 5v5, it is the way the game was DESIGNED to be played, and although that may not be the way it is most played riots increased reward and emphasis on it is a clear attempt to increase the player base doing ranked 5s because atm it is pretty abysmal. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
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Iskusstvo
United Kingdom323 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
I think this guy is good for his ult and raw damage output and his passive is pretty fucking amazing. But I'am just not sure how to build him. The main problem I have with him is a) he gets kited so I need some kind of additional disable and b) some kind of sustain and c) sth that increases his hp pool. - straight atmogs is way too slow and you get kited easily. I feel that if I replace warmog with mallet then he lacks raw stats - the best build I came up with so far is philo, mercs, hog, trinity, randuins, negatron. This build gives me kinda everything but it still doesnt feel right since I dont get enough damage early on. - have ppl tried to open wriggles mercs into sth? if yes then what? westrice seems to like this opening and I think it makes sense. What would you opt for after that opening in a balanced matchup? - his ad scaling seems to be RIDICULOUS on his R 8 spins in 4s with a 0.6 ratio? Is it true that you get a 4.8 ratio then? In this case it would be kinda stupid to get trinity right? - I would LOVE to build mercs, wriggles, mallet as my core and then opting for things like fon/atmas. But mallet just seems to not be that good from what I read every day. I actually never buy it because of this. Is it worth a try? | ||
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Qualm
721 Posts
On September 06 2011 02:01 clickrush wrote: - his ad scaling seems to be RIDICULOUS on his R 8 spins in 4s with a 0.6 ratio? Is it true that you get a 4.8 ratio then? In this case it would be kinda stupid to get trinity right? A 4.5-5 bonus AD ratio is standard on AD casters, just like something around 2-2.2 ratio is standard on mages. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On September 06 2011 02:06 Qualm wrote: A 4.5-5 bonus AD ratio is standard on AD casters, just like something around 2-2.2 ratio is standard on mages. on one spell? dont think so. he gets 4.8 from ult and 0.8 on his E which can hit 3 ppl. So he gets 5.6 ratio with aoe spells. pretty good no?. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On September 05 2011 20:52 Slayer91 wrote: And by carry you mean played somewhat well getting a postive KDA (expected on carries) while the jungler carried all the bad players? Honestly if a melee jungler has a score like that he is just carrying you all on his back :O not really... he was just on cleanup. This is the endgame screen after our comeback. Believe me, this team was FEEDING... notice the assists, i feel ok about taking credit for this one. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
"doing your job"+"not dying like a retard" doesn't exactly mean carrying even if your whole team even if they are feeding. A lee sin with like 75% tank items isn't exactly "clean up" he in middle of their whole team making it harder for them to run :p You could probably claim that you kept your team together when they were feeding but I wouldn't say totally carrying them when they all got tons of kills and assists just more deaths is fair. Some people fuck up early on and snowball downward, doesn't mean they are terrible. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2011 02:11 clickrush wrote: on one spell? dont think so. he gets 4.8 from ult and 0.8 on his E which can hit 3 ppl. So he gets 5.6 ratio with aoe spells. pretty good no?. The scaling on his ultimate is exactly identical to Garen's E. The ratios really aren't that ridiculous when you compare to other AD casters. Lee Sin's full combo is a 5.0 AD ratio. Garen's is 6.3. Pantheon's is 3.2 on a super low cooldown. Renekton's is 4.1-6.15 depending on how much fury he has. AD ratios on AD casters are generally pretty high because 1) they are all melee, and 2) AD is more expensive per point than AP is (compare Blasting Wand to Pickaxe and BF Sword to NLR). On September 06 2011 02:14 UniversalSnip wrote: not really... he was just on cleanup. This is the endgame screen after our comeback. Believe me, this team was FEEDING... notice the assists, i feel ok about taking credit for this one. 5 deaths is carrying, but 7-8 = big feeders getting carried, despite having a bunch of kills/assists? | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
This way the super competitive people will be more motivated to q 5s while the less competitive but not completely trololo casuals can just stick with solo q and not really give a fuck. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On September 06 2011 02:37 TheYango wrote: The scaling on his ultimate is exactly identical to Garen's E. The ratios really aren't that ridiculous when you compare to other AD casters. Lee Sin's full combo is a 5.0 AD ratio. Garen's is 6.3. Pantheon's is 3.2 on a super low cooldown. Renekton's is 4.1-6.15 depending on how much fury he has. AD ratios on AD casters are generally pretty high because 1) they are all melee, and 2) AD is more expensive per point than AP is (compare Blasting Wand to Pickaxe and BF Sword to NLR). ok then wukongs scaling is not even that high. Its good i guess. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On September 06 2011 02:37 TheYango wrote: The scaling on his ultimate is exactly identical to Garen's E. The ratios really aren't that ridiculous when you compare to other AD casters. Lee Sin's full combo is a 5.0 AD ratio. Garen's is 6.3. Pantheon's is 3.2 on a super low cooldown. Renekton's is 4.1-6.15 depending on how much fury he has. AD ratios on AD casters are generally pretty high because 1) they are all melee, and 2) AD is more expensive per point than AP is (compare Blasting Wand to Pickaxe and BF Sword to NLR). Not exactly, Wukong scales off of ALL AD, while Garen only scales off bonus AD. Wukong has a total AD scaling of 6.6, BUT his ulti AD ratios scale off of all his AD, not just bonus, whereas all the champs you just named only scale off of bonus AD. That's quite a difference. + Show Spoiler + 1.0 AD ratio on his Q+0.8 AD ratio on his E+4.8 AD ratio on his R; R scales off everything while Q+E only scale off bonus AD Regarding clickrush's last point, yes, I am of the opinion that triforce is a stupid item to get on Wukong. I feel like he should be played the same way Panth and Garen are played. Dblade stacking + bruta into 50 million bloodthirsters and maybe atmogs (or gunblade huehuehue). IMO, Wukong and Garen are very similar in that they both have pretty good AD ratios and they're naturally tanky. Garen due to his W, Wukong due to his passive. I feel they should be played similarly. For illustration, I'll math out Garen's total burst at lvl 6 compared to Wukong's total burst at lvl 6 along with their burst at lvl 16 + Show Spoiler + Garen lvl 6 has 117 AD (72 base)+2 dblades+bruta (45 bonus): Assuming E max with 1 point in Q and 1 point in W and using R immediately after Q+E ends Q: 205.5 E: 582 R: 400 Total: 1187.5 Wukong lvl 6 has 115 AD (70 base)+2 dblades+bruta (45 bonus): Assuming E max with 1 point in Q and 1 point in W Q: 145 E: 186 R: 632 Total: 963 Now, Wukong's lvl 6 ulti is pretty shit cause it only adds 20 additional damage a second. So I'm going to compare the 2 at lvl 16 with the same items+ a max stack bloodthirster. I know atmogs is a common choice, but even a max stacks atmogs isnt' going to have as much AD as a max stacks bloodthirster and for the purposes of illustration I'm going for max AD. Garen lvl 16 has 247 AD (102 base)+2 dblades+bruta+BT (145 bonus) Assuming E max Q max and using R immediately after Q+E ends Q: 460.5 E: 1182 R: 1182 Total: 2824.5 Wukong lvl 16 has 247 AD (102 base)+2 dblades+bruta+BT (145 bonus) Q: 397 E: 356 R: 1985.6 Total: 2738.6 Now, Garen's burst seems to be larger, but this is calculated without applying Wukong's armor reduction on his Q. Generally a full combo from Wukong would be E+Q+R in that order. So Wukong's R can be assumed to do more damage than what's listed; certainly at least 100 extra damage due to armor reduction making his total burst equivalent to Garen. I also didn't add the 160 damage that Decoy would do cause I'm assuming most people wouldn't be hit by that when you're trying to burst someone down lol. Additionally, if you notice, the vast majority of Wukong's burst is from his ulti, which is also AoE. Garen's largest burst values are between his E, which is AoE, and his ulti, which is only single target. I'm not really trying to show that Wukong's ridiculous AD scaling/secret OP or anything. More just that his ratios are definitely on par with some of the more ridiculous guys in game thus far (lolgaren). I'm also trying to not-so-subtly hint that Triforce is a retarded/shit item to get on Wukong since it completely neglects his AD ratios, which is where a lot of his damage comes from. Getting Triforce on Wukong is akin to getting Triforce on Garen imo. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2011 02:40 Ryuu314 wrote: Not exactly, Wukong scales off of ALL AD, while Garen only scales off bonus AD. Wukong has a total AD scaling of 6.6, BUT his ulti AD ratios scale off of all his AD, not just bonus, whereas all the champs you just named only scale off of bonus AD. That's quite a difference. + Show Spoiler + 1.0 AD ratio on his Q+0.8 AD ratio on his E+4.8 AD ratio on his R; R scales off everything while Q+E only scale off bonus AD The difference as far as scaling is concerned between "scales off bonus AD" and "scales off total AD" is almost none. You could convert almost every "scales off total AD" to "scales off bonus AD", and adjust the spell base values--and end up with pretty much the same damage at all level/item combinations. You could do out the math on total combo damage on all these champs, including base values and natural AD growth, but my point wasn't to theorycraft in so much detail--only to show that Wukong's AD scaling is hardly ridiculous, but rather very much in line with the other AD caster options available. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
Truth be told he wasn't all that bad actually. He could sustain himself pretty good, he had little trouble with exchanges because he was leveling his E skill first. I wasn't on his lane but i kept my eye on him given how rare it is to see any Olafs these days. He was playing against i think a Cho'gath, could have been an Irelia and he seemed to be doing reasonably fine. He dropped off in the endgame but that was mostly due to what i felt was a bit of a weak build and how he began to take stupid risks. I can see that Olaf doesn't do well against ranged but with many solo tops being melee he might have a spot up there. He can sustain decently and he exchanges pretty hard against melee tops. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Navi
5286 Posts
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
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