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broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
On September 03 2011 08:54 Kaniol wrote: In case you guys didn't notice: Loci's stream is up. Damn 2 am already and i'm watching his stream instead o sleeping T.T lol I think it's worth it. There's no guides to tell you that when you are hard carrying like 9-0 to buy six wards and ward the fuck out of the enemy jungle before making the push to their turrets. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
You so baited me. Let's get theorycraft it's good name back. =D tl;dr version: revo ranting on why it's bad to argue about decisions ingame. There are two concepts very similar to what you presented that are usually well explained by decent poker coaches. 1) The grey area. When you're a scrub and you start a new game you have no idea what's going on. Imagine a box and it's full of grey. If you learned the game for a while there are suddenly certain decisions that become blatantly obvious. Your box gets a black border and a white border on opposing sides and the easiest of easy decisions are included in your playstyle. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NjyLh.jpg) Black and white represent decisions that are definitly right or wrong. The various shades of grey represent all the others. The goal when learning this game is to extend the spheres of black/white till there is no grey left at all. a) "Killing opponents is good. Dieing is bad." would be an example of a black or white decision. As we move into the gray, the theoretical expectation of our options becomes more balanced. A decision might make us a 60-40 favorite for example. b) "I'm AP mid and my opponent just used 2 of his spells to get creeps. I now have a window of 10 seconds to punish him for that without fear of him retaliating." Moving into the central grey region, we arrive at those decisions for which the theoretical outcome is 50-50 or nearly so. These are the decisions of little or no theoretical consequence, the decision where each option is as good as the other. These are the decisions that matter the least. This is also the area where we can expect disagreement to go up over which decisions are best. If this was poker I'd quote a coaching buddy of mine and say: "We can expect intelligent, elaborate debates with both sides insisting theirs is the right side. We can also expect to debate with ourselves and to second guess ourselves." - since this is LoL and not poker however, I'll say this is the land of OMFG YOU FUCKING SCRUB-comments. c) "It's 30 minutes in and we just took a baron after killing 4 of their team. The score is 24-22 in their favor. We have the top 2 outer towers at top and mid killed, bottom isn't pushed at all. Since we're all around level 15 or lower it makes the most sense to push bottom lane to get the most xp and gold out of baron to give us a slight edge longterm." (remember this one from 5H1T a while ago, pretty close example to a 50-50 decision.) Now I can come to the point and implementation of this "theory": While statement a) is completely accurate it's pretty useless knowledge at the highest level of play. Everyone knows. It's not part of the grey area of any team member at 2k elo that dieing is bad. It does not give you an edge to know that fact. It won't help you to know it because its very far away from the middle grey area. Statement c), while also completely accurate, is absolutely useless knowledge at a low level of play. Because NO ONE knows it, either on your side or the enemy side, it would make no sense for anyone at first sight. You shouting at your team because it does not comply when you suggest it makes you look like a douche who has no clue what he is doing. Since, after all, everyone knows that Baron = get inhibitor and you can do that best in top/mid lane at that point, right? Games won't be decided by such small factors since the individual skill is much less developed. It, once again, does not give you an edge to know about this. It won't help you to know it until your black/white area shrank enough to get to this level where such a close decision really matters. What can we learn from this? The decisions that trouble us the most are the ones that matter least. (Since, once again, this is LoL and not poker and people don't evaluate their own actions as much here's the translation for LoL-players: Decisions over which we argue the most are the ones that matter least.) Let's say you're in the middle of a game and you face a decision that's very close (should we do baron or can we get an inhibitor?) and afterwards you want a definite answer. You want to know, one way or the other, if your play was right or wrong. STOP RIGHT THERE. Just by thinking like that about what's right or wrong you're making a mistake. If you make such a decision and then write about it, think about it, it's great. It's great if you talk to other people about it - all good and fine. But the individuals grey area is a huge trap, especially in solo q games where communication is limited. Don't assume that just because you have an answer, and just because someone else has a different answer, that one of you is right and the other is wrong. - There is no point in argueing these types of situations ingame. If you say "let's baron" and another guy says "let's push" just please for the love of both of your sanity don't write a 20 line paragraph explaining why baron would be better while he pushes with another guy while in the end you get neither and inhibitor nor baron. People tend to take these decisions very personal because they think they're better than others and therefor making the better decisions. However, the game itself is definitly not personal. No matter how good you will get, you will always have a grey area. It's not part of you, it's nothing personal. It's a part of the game. (I'll wait a day or so till I post about the other thingy, can't spam Moonbears and my post away like that. <3) | ||
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Iskusstvo
United Kingdom323 Posts
EDIT TIME: Not to say that your post wasn't brilliant analysis and superb reading. Which it was. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
If you say "let's baron" and another guy says "let's push" just please for the love of both of your sanity don't write a 20 line paragraph explaining why baron would be better while he pushes with another guy while in the end you get neither and inhibitor nor baron. People tend to take these decisions very personal because they think they're better than others and therefor making the better decisions. However, the game itself is definitly not personal. Sometimes, it's much much better to argue. Occasionally, you'll get that guy on your team who has been making bad decisions all game long, but refuses to acknowledge that. Sometimes you just have to take the reigns by force (aka CAPS LOCK) if necessary and just dictate what the team should do. If you've been performing and making good calls consistently throughout the game, you often don't have much trouble in gaining control of your team. The few times where your team just straight up refuses to listen will likely be the very few games that simply are unwinnable. | ||
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
they won game one, cant give phantomlord karthus lul. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Team Rez vs Blight Gaming http://www.own3d.tv/live/37908/SoloMid__Liquid112 Curse Gaming vs Rock Solid Nice to see a lot of teams getting srs mode for Season 2. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On September 03 2011 10:45 Ryuu314 wrote: Good post r.Evo, but I have to disagree somewhat with this part: Sometimes, it's much much better to argue. Occasionally, you'll get that guy on your team who has been making bad decisions all game long, but refuses to acknowledge that. Sometimes you just have to take the reigns by force (aka CAPS LOCK) if necessary and just dictate what the team should do. If you've been performing and making good calls consistently throughout the game, you often don't have much trouble in gaining control of your team. The few times where your team just straight up refuses to listen will likely be the very few games that simply are unwinnable. Hurpdurp. Obviously you'll find examples where it's wrong, being theorycraft and all. =P This paragraph is mostly directed at all the "I YELLED AT THEM TO DO BARON BUT THEY PUSHED AND THEN THEY DIED YELLING AT ME THAT I SUCK"-rants. Like, if it's a close decision and half your team already runs towards inhib there just is no point in being butthurt and insisting on baron (probably sacrificing any chance at getting the inhib since they lack your dps since you're emo and all). Imho a basic concept of solid "theorycraft" is that once you really understand the theory of what you're trying to say you can start breaking it. Doesn't matter if it's poker, martial arts or a game like sc2/lol. It usually goes like: learn a new pattern -> Understand theory behind it -> Learn when to break the pattern/theory to gain more of an advantage. That's why you usually see things at a high level in those areas that make NO FUCKING SENSE to anyone who's not close to that level, but SOMEHOW (magic, rite?) they work. Whenever you wonder whether some call was madness (cause it didnt work) or a stroke of genius (cause it worked) usually these mechanics are at work. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On September 03 2011 11:21 HazMat wrote: RS destroying crs with Talon :D A lot of hot heads in Crs. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
edit: Not as annoying as crs though. 2much rage. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On September 03 2011 08:07 MoonBear wrote: I wrote a massive post in response to something Spines wrote in the Ezrael thread but then I started going massively off-topic. So I'm going to post it here instead. It's really long but maybe some of you will get a kick out of reading it. I dunno. On Champion Design, Balance, and what is Actual OP-ness and Percieved OP-ness Champion Design and Balance focuses on three key aspects. 1) Damage 2) Fighting Utility (e.g. Stuns, heals) 3) Miscellaneous Utility (e.g. Escape tools, mini-cvs, buffs/debuffs) In theory, a balanced champion should never excel at all three areas. In most cases, they will focus on two of these, or be well-rounded at all three but not amazing at any individual area. It's sort of like the Master v Jack-of-all-trades argument. When we look at some of the champions considered classically as "imbalanced", you notice that they tend to hit all three areas quite well. Old Sona for instance could do good damage, had a CC and had a lot more Utility too. Jax can do good damage, has a stun/Mres steroid and his jump opens up lots of possibilities. This then leads to the interesting area of player growth and development. There are two forms of development. They are Vertical and Horizontal. Vertical Development is when you get better at doing a single-minded task. An obvious example is, say, learning how to play your champions to do more damage. This is when you get better at combo-ing spells on AP Burst Mages, or learn how to position better in team fights as an AD Carry and can right click more. It can even include hitting more skill shots. For instance, the CassiOPeia who learns how to better use her Q+W to get her E spam on has developed vertically. Champions who are focused on Points 1 and 2 (Damage and Fighting Utility) generally are more powerful when players undergo vertical development. Horizontal Development is when you learn more subtle aspects of playing a champion. In essence, this is where you learn more intricate things that aren't simply "playing better". For instance, learning how to use Janna Ults to do more than just reset a teamfight is an example of horizontal development. For instance, you might Flash Ult at Baron to push an enemy at the wall into your waiting team and deny smiting. Horizontal development generally applies to Points 2 and 3 (Utility based applications) for obvious reasons. Tying back in with my earlier point on what is considered OP, Champions that have massive potential for both Horizontal and Vertical Growth are what really make them OP. This is even the case where they may not excel in all of the 3 points I listed earlier. Orianna is OP, and I called it soon after release. The reasoning is simple. Even though her miscellaneous and combat utility are relatively limited compared to the masters of them (using Janna as a benchmark for miscellaneous utility experts, etc.) she has massive potential in her horizontal and vertical development. Learning how to manage and control her ball and auto-attacks well (Vertical) and how to combo them effectively in conjunction with your team (Horizontal) gives her a massive presence both in lane and in teamfights despite her innate squishiness. (I believe she's even squishier than Ashe, the clssic squishy, in terms of base stats.) In essence, power can be summed up as the area when you consider potential Vertical and Horizontal development. Let's call this area the Power Area. More Power Area = more OP-ness basically. Here's an example of what I mean. (Btw all following graphs don't have a scale and are exaggerated to make a point.) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aMCww.jpg) As you can see, Orianna has lots of OP potential thanks to being a deep character development-wise which gives her lots of Power Area. Sivir has less OP potential because she has a more restricted horizontal development despite doing good damage. Her Spell Shield and Ult don't give as much room for development compared to Orianna. When people complain of OP in lower Elos, it is not because they are considering the development function of the champions. Instead, they are considering the potential that the person playing that champion has unlocked in the Power Area. I'll represent this with Oriana and Tryndamere (who low Elo loves to QQ about). ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dZfAH.jpg) Trynd has less overall Power Area, but players can access more of that area faster. If you saw two clips of a low Elo and a high Elo player both using his Ult, for the most part, it would be difficult to tell the difference. (This is just a simple example). When we consider Elo as a variable in Champion power function, we can represent this if we make our diagrams three dimensional to show how easy it is to master different parts of the Power Area. I'm too lazy to go boot up MATLAB though. So maybe another day I'll talk more about it. Also, it would probably have been faster to make these in Adobe than MSPaint. TIL indeed. I hope you all enjoyed that read. You need to add a number 4 to that list: scaling. IMO scaling is the make or break or break for being op. Not just offensive, but defensive scaling as well. Old Jarman was a good example, good base damages, but his defensive scaling was what made him OP. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On September 03 2011 11:24 HazMat wrote: Eski's team is pretty annoying <.< edit: Not as annoying as crs though. 2much rage. What happened? I muted Eski's stream during picks since Crs v RS was ingame. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On September 03 2011 08:59 WaveofShadow wrote: Fixed. (Sorry I had to!) Also Moonbear, why are you not King of the Subforum yet? you really havn't realized that bears are the master race? | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
On September 03 2011 11:27 NeoIllusions wrote: What happened? I muted Eski's stream during picks since Crs v RS was ingame. Nothing really just kept trolling during champ select so they had to remake 3 times before finally playing their scrim. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On September 03 2011 11:38 De4ngus wrote: urgot + fiddle ult combo raping treeskimo over and over lol, I was just about to comment on this. Suppression + Fiddle is just so much CC and DPS. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On September 03 2011 11:27 barbsq wrote: you really havn't realized that bears are the master race? Where do turkeys fit in on that list? Also this Treeeeeskimo game.....just a slaughter. | ||
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
On September 03 2011 11:48 WaveofShadow wrote: Where do turkeys fit in on that list? Also this Treeeeeskimo game.....just a slaughter. comeback tiiime srsly ban orianna edit: nvm they went full retard at baron | ||
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HPoirot
United States1303 Posts
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esotericc
449 Posts
Prefer ranged | ||
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