[Patch 1.0.0.124: Talon] General Discussion - Page 114

On September 03 2011 08:54 Kaniol wrote:
In case you guys didn't notice: Loci's stream is up. Damn 2 am already and i'm watching his stream instead o sleeping T.T

If you say "let's baron" and another guy says "let's push" just please for the love of both of your sanity don't write a 20 line paragraph explaining why baron would be better while he pushes with another guy while in the end you get neither and inhibitor nor baron.

People tend to take these decisions very personal because they think they're better than others and therefor making the better decisions. However, the game itself is definitly not personal.

On September 03 2011 10:45 Ryuu314 wrote:
Good post r.Evo, but I have to disagree somewhat with this part:

Sometimes, it's much much better to argue. Occasionally, you'll get that guy on your team who has been making bad decisions all game long, but refuses to acknowledge that. Sometimes you just have to take the reigns by force (aka CAPS LOCK) if necessary and just dictate what the team should do.

If you've been performing and making good calls consistently throughout the game, you often don't have much trouble in gaining control of your team. The few times where your team just straight up refuses to listen will likely be the very few games that simply are unwinnable.

On September 03 2011 11:21 HazMat wrote:
RS destroying crs with Talon :D

On September 03 2011 08:07 MoonBear wrote:
I wrote a massive post in response to something Spines wrote in the Ezrael thread but then I started going massively off-topic. So I'm going to post it here instead. It's really long but maybe some of you will get a kick out of reading it. I dunno.

On Champion Design, Balance, and what is Actual OP-ness and Percieved OP-ness
Champion Design and Balance focuses on three key aspects.
1) Damage
2) Fighting Utility (e.g. Stuns, heals)
3) Miscellaneous Utility (e.g. Escape tools, mini-cvs, buffs/debuffs)

In theory, a balanced champion should never excel at all three areas. In most cases, they will focus on two of these, or be well-rounded at all three but not amazing at any individual area. It's sort of like the Master v Jack-of-all-trades argument.

When we look at some of the champions considered classically as "imbalanced", you notice that they tend to hit all three areas quite well. Old Sona for instance could do good damage, had a CC and had a lot more Utility too. Jax can do good damage, has a stun/Mres steroid and his jump opens up lots of possibilities.

This then leads to the interesting area of player growth and development. There are two forms of development. They are Vertical and Horizontal.

Vertical Development is when you get better at doing a single-minded task. An obvious example is, say, learning how to play your champions to do more damage. This is when you get better at combo-ing spells on AP Burst Mages, or learn how to position better in team fights as an AD Carry and can right click more. It can even include hitting more skill shots. For instance, the CassiOPeia who learns how to better use her Q+W to get her E spam on has developed vertically. Champions who are focused on Points 1 and 2 (Damage and Fighting Utility) generally are more powerful when players undergo vertical development.

Horizontal Development is when you learn more subtle aspects of playing a champion. In essence, this is where you learn more intricate things that aren't simply "playing better". For instance, learning how to use Janna Ults to do more than just reset a teamfight is an example of horizontal development. For instance, you might Flash Ult at Baron to push an enemy at the wall into your waiting team and deny smiting. Horizontal development generally applies to Points 2 and 3 (Utility based applications) for obvious reasons.

Tying back in with my earlier point on what is considered OP, Champions that have massive potential for both Horizontal and Vertical Growth are what really make them OP. This is even the case where they may not excel in all of the 3 points I listed earlier.

Orianna is OP, and I called it soon after release. The reasoning is simple. Even though her miscellaneous and combat utility are relatively limited compared to the masters of them (using Janna as a benchmark for miscellaneous utility experts, etc.) she has massive potential in her horizontal and vertical development. Learning how to manage and control her ball and auto-attacks well (Vertical) and how to combo them effectively in conjunction with your team (Horizontal) gives her a massive presence both in lane and in teamfights despite her innate squishiness. (I believe she's even squishier than Ashe, the clssic squishy, in terms of base stats.)

In essence, power can be summed up as the area when you consider potential Vertical and Horizontal development. Let's call this area the Power Area. More Power Area = more OP-ness basically. Here's an example of what I mean. (Btw all following graphs don't have a scale and are exaggerated to make a point.)



As you can see, Orianna has lots of OP potential thanks to being a deep character development-wise which gives her lots of Power Area. Sivir has less OP potential because she has a more restricted horizontal development despite doing good damage. Her Spell Shield and Ult don't give as much room for development compared to Orianna.

When people complain of OP in lower Elos, it is not because they are considering the development function of the champions. Instead, they are considering the potential that the person playing that champion has unlocked in the Power Area. I'll represent this with Oriana and Tryndamere (who low Elo loves to QQ about).



Trynd has less overall Power Area, but players can access more of that area faster. If you saw two clips of a low Elo and a high Elo player both using his Ult, for the most part, it would be difficult to tell the difference. (This is just a simple example).

When we consider Elo as a variable in Champion power function, we can represent this if we make our diagrams three dimensional to show how easy it is to master different parts of the Power Area.

I'm too lazy to go boot up MATLAB though. So maybe another day I'll talk more about it.

Also, it would probably have been faster to make these in Adobe than MSPaint. TIL indeed.

I hope you all enjoyed that read.

On September 03 2011 11:24 HazMat wrote:
Eski's team is pretty annoying <.<
edit: Not as annoying as crs though. 2much rage.

On September 03 2011 08:59 WaveofShadow wrote:

Fixed.
(Sorry I had to!)
Also Moonbear, why are you not King of the Subforum yet?

On September 03 2011 11:27 NeoIllusions wrote:


What happened? I muted Eski's stream during picks since Crs v RS was ingame.

On September 03 2011 11:38 De4ngus wrote:
urgot + fiddle ult combo raping treeskimo over and over

On September 03 2011 11:27 barbsq wrote:


you really havn't realized that bears are the master race?

On September 03 2011 11:48 WaveofShadow wrote:


Where do turkeys fit in on that list?

Also this Treeeeeskimo game.....just a slaughter.