[Patch 1.0.0.124: Talon] General Discussion - Page 113

On September 03 2011 07:55 HazMat wrote:
Talking to Koreans in LoL in broken english is so fun.
I think I'll make a thread for LoL convos, sort of like bash.org

On September 03 2011 07:35 NeoIllusions wrote:


Does he not know you're a TL regular? oO

On September 03 2011 08:00 HazMat wrote:

Dunno what to name the thread.

On September 03 2011 08:06 Phrost wrote:


Evidently not, like I said, I haven't talked to him for quiet some time.

On September 03 2011 08:00 HazMat wrote:

Dunno what to name the thread.

On September 03 2011 08:14 NeoIllusions wrote:


How Not to be a Fk Noob

And yeah, I can change titles every so often. Only power I don't have is making stickies.

On September 03 2011 08:07 MoonBear wrote:
I wrote a massive post in response to something Spines wrote in the Ezrael thread but then I started going massively off-topic. So I'm going to post it here instead. It's really long but maybe some of you will get a kick out of reading it. I dunno.

On Champion Design, Balance, and what is Actual OP-ness and Percieved OP-ness
Champion Design and Balance focuses on three key aspects.
1) Damage
2) Fighting Utility (e.g. Stuns, heals)
3) Miscellaneous Utility (e.g. Escape tools, mini-cvs, buffs/debuffs)

In theory, a balanced champion should never excel at all three areas. In most cases, they will focus on two of these, or be well-rounded at all three but not amazing at any individual area. It's sort of like the Master v Jack-of-all-trades argument.

When we look at some of the champions considered classically as "imbalanced", you notice that they tend to hit all three areas quite well. Old Sona for instance could do good damage, had a CC and had a lot more Utility too. Jax can do good damage, has a stun/Mres steroid and his jump opens up lots of possibilities.

This then leads to the interesting area of player growth and development. There are two forms of development. They are Vertical and Horizontal.

Vertical Development is when you get better at doing a single-minded task. An obvious example is, say, learning how to play your champions to do more damage. This is when you get better at combo-ing spells on AP Burst Mages, or learn how to position better in team fights as an AD Carry and can right click more. It can even include hitting more skill shots. For instance, the CassiOPeia who learns how to better use her Q+W to get her E spam on has developed vertically. Champions who are focused on Points 1 and 2 (Damage and Fighting Utility) generally are more powerful when players undergo vertical development.

Horizontal Development is when you learn more subtle aspects of playing a champion. In essence, this is where you learn more intricate things that aren't simply "playing better". For instance, learning how to use Janna Ults to do more than just reset a teamfight is an example of horizontal development. For instance, you might Flash Ult at Baron to push an enemy at the wall into your waiting team and deny smiting. Horizontal development generally applies to Points 2 and 3 (Utility based applications) for obvious reasons.

Tying back in with my earlier point on what is considered OP, Champions that have massive potential for both Horizontal and Vertical Growth are what really make them OP. This is even the case where they may not excel in all of the 3 points I listed earlier.

Orianna is OP, and I called it soon after release. The reasoning is simple. Even though her miscellaneous and combat utility are relatively limited compared to the masters of them (using Janna as a benchmark for miscellaneous utility experts, etc.) she has massive potential in her horizontal and vertical development. Learning how to manage and control her ball and auto-attacks well (Vertical) and how to combo them effectively in conjunction with your team (Horizontal) gives her a massive presence both in lane and in teamfights despite her innate squishiness. (I believe she's even squishier than Ashe, the clssic squishy, in terms of base stats.)

In essence, power can be summed up as the area when you consider potential Vertical and Horizontal development. Let's call this area the Power Area. More Power Area = more OP-ness basically. Here's an example of what I mean. (Btw all following graphs don't have a scale and are exaggerated to make a point.)

As you can see, Orianna has lots of OP potential thanks to being a deep character development-wise which gives her lots of Power Area. Sivir has less OP potential because she has a more restricted horizontal development despite doing good damage. Her Spell Shield and Ult don't give as much room for development compared to Orianna.

When people complain of OP in lower Elos, it is not because they are considering the development function of the champions. Instead, they are considering the potential that the person playing that champion has unlocked in the Power Area. I'll represent this with Oriana and Tryndamere (who low Elo loves to QQ about).

Trynd has less overall Power Area, but players can access more of that area faster. If you saw two clips of a low Elo and a high Elo player both using his Ult, for the most part, it would be difficult to tell the difference. (This is just a simple example).

When we consider Elo as a variable in Champion power function, we can represent this if we make our diagrams three dimensional to show how easy it is to master different parts of the Power Area.

I'm too lazy to go boot up MATLAB though. So maybe another day I'll talk more about it.

Also, it would probably have been faster to make these in Adobe than MSPaint. TIL indeed.

I hope you all enjoyed that read.

On September 03 2011 08:15 NeoIllusions wrote:
Edit2: How to Initiate for your Team with a squishy, a guide by Uta.

On September 03 2011 08:13 Southlight wrote:
Moon, the one thing that your stuff doesn't really take into account IMO is that, mm, certain things are simply more effective at lower levels. This has nothing to do with either power area and more to do with the fact that people struggle to deal with certain things.
[...]

On September 03 2011 08:15 NeoIllusions wrote:
Nice post MoonBears. <3

If I was still in college, I'd definitely try to take a game design class. :[[[

Edit: omg Uta. We are not friends nomo.

Edit2: How to Initiate for your Team, a guide by Uta.
i h8 u nao

On September 03 2011 08:16 rewtamus wrote:
[...]
I am requesting permission to ues this post in a podcast, is it ok?

full-credit shall be given

On September 03 2011 08:18 Southlight wrote:
[...]
Edit3: Why right-clicking with Range ADs is overrated: Manamune and You

Fixed :3

On September 03 2011 08:26 MoonBear wrote:

That is a good point. While that does partially come under vertical growth, a player's mindset and mechanical skill aren't quite fully captured. Learning how to juke skillshots is not necessarily vertical growth but still a good skill toi have.