EPT[D] Fixing passive play - Page 2
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:17 TheYango wrote: The question that I have to ask, because, just like Riot you do not clarify: What do you consider "the problem of passive gameplay?" Is it A) Lane play is too focused on farming, and not enough on aggression/harassment OR B) Mapwide play in early levels tends to be passive--there are comparatively few ganks overall, almost no lane-to-lane ganks, and even when they happen, ganks rarely turn into kills Both have been referred to by Riot as a "passive gameplay problem", but Riot has unsuccessfully tried to tackle both issues, in part, IMO, because these are two opposed problems--attempting to "fix" one problem tends to exacerbate the other. That's a really good post, I think it's necessary to this thread that we all look at this point that there are two different ways in which the game can produce action. Let's separate these into type A aggression and type B aggression as seen above. When you have lots of type A aggression, you have people trying to dominate their lane and crush their opponents out 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2. When you have type B aggression you have people coming in for powerful 2 vs 1 and 3 vs 2 ganks frequently. Lemme summarize how riot views things: 1) Lots of type B aggression prevents type A aggression. I think this is pretty much impossible to argue with, you can either have one of these or neither but there's no reason to think you can have both types of aggression at a high level. I think riot actually hopes to reduce aggression of type B because they feel type A is more rewarding. 2) Right now there is NO reward for type A aggression. This is the function denying has in dota. Watching the international I understood for the first time how the system works. I had been under the impression that good players were constantly both last hitting and denying off each other but actually if you look at the scoreboards in the game you see that the players usually have very few denies. Here is the purpose of denying: If you are zoning your opponent in lol, they can hang back and your last hitting will eventually send the creeps to the tower. They will gain xp and gold - not as much as you, but more than enough to stay in the game. So they really have no reason to come out and be vulnerable. If you are zoning your opponent in dota, you can deny and your last hitting will not push the lane. So they have to come out because the lane will never push to their tower. So basically, in league of legends if you outplay your opponent with type A aggression, you hardly get rewarded for it at all by comparison, and you have the double penalty of opening yourself up to type B aggression. | ||
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daxxus
United States14 Posts
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
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Azerbaijan
United States660 Posts
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
The issue here is that it's not very good for PR to tell the majority of your client base "If you suck I don't care if you're not having a fun and balanced experience, learn to play before you bitch" | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On August 22 2011 13:27 STS17 wrote:(the game is too forgiving on mistakes for example) at a high level of play while still attempting to cater to the casuals and bads I know it's amazing, but the matchmaking system is pretty good. If you suck, you get placed against other shitty players, removing most of the pubstomp issue. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On August 22 2011 13:18 Azerbaijan wrote: So any ideas how to create a reward for effective zoning and lane control? I can't see riot ever adding denying to this game. I've no idea! | ||
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cordlc
United States360 Posts
On August 22 2011 13:27 STS17 wrote: The biggest problem Riot faces right now is that they are trying to cater to casuals while attempting to promote the game as a competitive E-Sport. There is a huge tension right now about which MOBA will be "the" e-sport in the future and it's certainly very profitable to be the company supporting that game. The issue is you can't address certain problems (the game is too forgiving on mistakes for example) at a high level of play while still attempting to cater to the casuals and bads. If League of Legends continues to cater to casuals and DotA 2 caters to the competitive scene, then that's where the scene will go. The issue here is that it's not very good for PR to tell the majority of your client base "If you suck I don't care if you're not having a fun and balanced experience, learn to play before you bitch" I don't agree with the bold. It's the viewers that determines how big the scene will be, not the players. Since MOBA's are terrible to watch when you don't know the heroes, the game that the "casuals" play will have a huge advantage. It's the reason why competitive LoL has tons of interest, while HoN has very little. As for the thread, I do like the idea of more type A aggression UniversalSnip mentioned (dominating lane opponents), as type B aggression is just more frustrating for players. Just not sure how to better reward the winner of the lane... | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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bigjenk
United States1543 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:53 daxxus wrote: Before I throw in my 2 cents I'd like to just state that I'm only lvl 13 but I have watched a lot of HoN and the new DotA streams, and am much more of a cerebral player than most my level. I think nerfing tower damage and buffing tower health would be a great change. Getting a clear 1v1 kill before level 8ish is incredibly hard. Even when I am fully confident in my ability to kill someone, more often than not they can escape because it only takes a few tower hits to kill an AD carry. For example playing ashe i like to buy boots then rush Infinity Edge... I am glass cannon status at this point, and a tower would make short work of me. I understand that they are there to favor someone escaping but at this point it is just ridiculous. Dota 2 is a great example of how it should be done. I watched 3 people at level 6 stand under an enemy tower and kill a hero. How often does this happen in LoL? Not often is the answer. Apparently I am not in riots target demographic because while I consider myself a casual, I am starting to get very irritated by the fact that most low level kills are via towers Actually it is kind of common to get a 4 man gank bot lane around 6 to secure first dragon and you can easily dive at that level. I think one of the big things is sustain in top lane and support + ad bot lane that is just farm(to be fair in dota that is all the hard carries do for the first 30 or so minutes outside a couple of fights or counter ganks). In dota there is also op disables compared to lol. At level 6 a bm mid can gank with a vs, es roamers from the tri lane and have 7 seconds of disable and a fissure trap. It is quite often in a 4 man gank bot for first dragon in lol has one or 2 single target disables for a total of like 3 secs and normally at least one is a skill shot. Blue pilling really should have a cd i think as well as the trip from base to top is like 20 secs with boots, allowing you to not even miss a full wave and constantly reward. On the plus side lol promotes much more mid to late game fighting from map objectives and smaller map size. If i had a nickel for every dota match that got decided in the first 25 mins and then turned into 15 mins of stale farming to extend the advantage I would have a lot of nickels. Fuck one of the early games this weekend went 2 hours and the last hour had like 2 teamfights. And you are not safe on sidelanes from ganks with 4 wards as the brush from behind ganks are still there. There are many differences as the games are very different for being in the same genre and both have their positives and negatives. Main thing that makes me sad busting out the old dota this weekend is how unresponsive and clunky the movement seems compared to lol. | ||
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
Buyback gives you something to do with your money when you're capped and slightly increases the margin for error which makes people more likely to take risks/be aggressive. | ||
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aru
183 Posts
The difference is that in DotA the crowd control is much stronger than it is in LoL and more heroes have it, so the other guy doesn't fight back or run away but spends more time stunned/snared leaving him extremely low if not outright dead by the time the CC ends. The CC in DotA lasts longer but has a longer cooldown. On the other hand, CC in LoL lasts much less but has a shorter CD. Something else mentioned was that there wasn't as high a reward factor, ie. you don't lose gold on death. First, you have to keep in mind that gold in LoL is worth more than it is in DotA. For example, the gold you get from creeps in DotA is approximately 2x more than the ones from LoL, the trade off is that items are cheaper in LoL--but ends games items are not 2x cheaper. The rate of gold accumulation from farm vs end game item prices might be the same, but I'm unsure. It feels like DotA creeps take slightly longer to kill each other from watching the DotA2 stream but not that much longer. Excluding other factors such as first blood and streaks, the gold from a kill in LoL is 300gold while in DotA it's 200+level*5 and the dead hero loses level*30. As mentioned above, LoL items are cheaper. So from early games kill, you actually work much faster towards end game items than you do in DotA. Could you imagine if you first blooded someone in DotA and got 650+ gold at under level 5, how much better your laning would be? Not just that, but the distance between opposing towers is much shorter and the tower kills creeps much faster compared to DotA. You lose a lot more farm from dying to due to your lane getting pushed a lot quicker to your tower and your tower killing the creeps much faster. It's not so much that there isn't a high reward factor, but the reward factor for a successful kill is too much that it forces the opponent to play a lot more safe. If you watched the games, it wasn't that people weren't trying to setup ganks or go ganking, but that it was too hard because the other player was playing too safe. If the reward for killing someone at low level was scaled better, would people play more aggressive in lane, due to lower punishment, making it easier for the ganks to take place? Who knows. Another point brought up was denying. While I do think it's an interesting mechanic that would add another strategy to LoL, it would make little to no difference to passive play. Yes, you could keep your creep wave from pushing towards the enemy tower to make the enemy come out. But what's stopping you from taking it to the extreme where you deny to keep your creep wave at your tower so you can turtle up and farm? Keep in mind that in DotA you can only deny creeps under 50% HP. The lane will eventually push either way unless you pull creeps from the forest to block (another mechanic not in LoL). The degree of lane control in DotA is higher but it can just as easily promote passive play. I find it strange that people say that LoL is too forgiving of mistakes at high level. While it's true that it is forgiving of mistakes at low level since it's harder to kill people early game, I find it the opposite at high level. High level players know how to capitalize on mistakes while lower level players do not. The game is too harsh on mistakes at high level, especially late game. Out of position and the other team has 5 people at baron? Can't do anything about it unless you have teleport because by the time you get there, it'll be dead. Out of position and alone? Your team can't help you because they can't teleport to you. Get caught and killed? That's multiple towers because the death timer is too long, you can't buyback, the lanes are too small and the tower and building HP is too little. That is another reason why it's so passive, because if you screw up at high level, it just snowballs out of control since the other team can take out so many map objectives 5v4. Would buybacks like DotA, or limited buybacks like HoN, help this issue? I think wards are an issue and limited wards would help, but going further a long that line of thought, the biggest issue is the map. As mentioned in the OP, there aren't enough different paths through the jungle, making warding chokes extremely easy. I think the biggest offender is that the distance between towers are too short, even if you push out a bit it's very easy to get back to relative safety. Ganks would also be easier if the distances between the two T1 towers and the T1 to T2 towers were further apart. Furthering what I mentioned in the last paragraph, mistakes result in multiple towers being lost because the distances are too short and the creep wave pushes to the next map objective too fast. Longer lanes and higher HP buildings would make mistakes of dying leading into snowballs a lot more forgiving. Would having an on demand, consumable fortify like DotA help? From the DotA2 streams, it seems to me that people are willing to be more aggressive because the mistakes from screwing up your aggressiveness aren't as pronounced as they are in LoL and snowball out of control as much. If you screw up pushing into the enemy base (in one of the Navi vs Ehome games, Navi repeatedly pushed one lane over and over), the enemy can't just 5man rush your base taking out a ton of your buildings due to travel distance in the map. Similarly to that, if you make a mistake defending, chances are you can usually buyback and continue defending. Anyway, I can't really think of a way to fix this simply without messing up somewhere else. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
so yeah, i don't see a problem with doran's items, just the fact that you can stack 'em. i like the design theory behind them, but i agree the items would need a little workover if they aren't gonna make them unique (which they won't) | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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guoguo
United States121 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
I definitely agree with you on Fortify. It's absurd that it has a longer cooldown than Flash, which has superior utility by leaps and bounds. If they lowered the cooldown on Fortify to like 45 seconds, made it team unique (as in only one Fort per team), and made it target a specific tower instead of multiple towers, it would be much more useful, but in a different way. As it is right now it's a pretty stupid spell, essentially with the long cooldown you end up paying for the rest of your towers, that are not under siege, being protected as well. Enjoy your several meager seconds of invincible towers, cuz if it didn't come at that one specific time where you only need that 5-6 seconds or whatever to get to the tower and defend it with your team, it's just pointless, and you won't get another opportunity for a loooooong time. It makes very little sense to me, which is why i lambaste people who take it when they're on my team  | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 22 2011 14:39 arnath wrote: This might be slightly tangential to your original point Uta, but I'm going to make the argument that buyback would make this game a lot better. Especially in long games (30+ minutes) you hit a point where both teams are too afraid to do anything because losing one or two people to a small mistake can cost you the game or a really large lead. Buyback gives you something to do with your money when you're capped and slightly increases the margin for error which makes people more likely to take risks/be aggressive. Buyback won't solve the early game passivity, which is where most of the problems lie. | ||
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On August 22 2011 14:21 zulu_nation8 wrote: I think the game is rather too unforgiving of mistakes, particularly in mid to late game and in organized play. One death can result in gigantic snowballs of some combination of baron/dragon/buffs/towers which all lead to tremendous pressure on the defending side, who on top of losing all the neutral free gold and buffs, will often have to defend with little to no map vision. Late late game one mistake will simply lead straight to a loss. That's the biggest reason teams are so hesitant to take any risks let alone engage. Mistakes don't even have to be getting caught, but just staying on bot side for a little too long or recalling at the wrong time, both of which can lead to a free baron. While the tremendous consequences of making mistakes will speed up the overall game length theoretically, it makes for very boring play. Tense, high level, extremely strategical, but ultimately boring to play and watch. In unorganized play anyone can do whatever they want and be as aggressive and risky and dumb and none of it will matter nearly as much because people won't capitalize. I think this is the biggest problem with LoL as competitive game right now. Except it so all game long, First blood nets you almost another Dorans or a 3rd of a catalyst. Who wins the guy with or with out that boost in lane? I played a game with a scrubby friend today, When I usually play every time we get an advantage we force a snowball. Bot is dominating? Remove support from bot go help mid, killed guy mid? get drake. When I played with my friend they simply got a kill = go to another lane and farm. There are a bunch of strong snowball mechanics (400 for first blood? 300 for all other kills) this does not make sense, in DotA you got a lot less for kills, with ganks being so hard to get in LoL it is very hard to make a comeback after a death as the opponents are basically safe and can out sustain any lane with the gold advantage. | ||
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