EPTit's not even the same game apart from the champions
[D] Fixing passive play - Page 5
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
it's not even the same game apart from the champions | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
My hate for "zone control" style games aside though, I don't think "relentless attack gogogogo" with absolutely no restraint is what people in this thread are looking for. I think it's some way to solve the current metagame which only really gives up 15-20 kills throughout the course of an entire match. The amount of kills is more symptomatic of the problem rather than the problem itself, and I think that most people would enjoy watching LoL more if the play style was made more aggressive rather than just the number of tower dives/champion kills is raised by any means. From what I understand, people just don't want to see players passively farming creeps, they want to see teamfights and competition for buffs and all that.... Naturally that will lead to more kills being secured. Out of all the suggestions in this thread, I think changing the map to make it more open is the best one. If you can make it such that wards don't lock the river down so easily, there will be more early ganking and thus more "excitement," to use the term loosely. And if you make it such that there are more possible approach/escape paths to towers, then there will be more incentive to go underneath towers for kills, since your attack has a greater chance to result in yourself escaping. Ward cooldown is also a good suggestion that I'd like to see tried. Say, each team has 4 wards and you can't buy more than that until one of them expires. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Result: Grouping up for objectives becomes more important and is done more frequently. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:29 nyxnyxnyx wrote: comparing SR to dominion is kinda meh it's not even the same game apart from the champions You say that, yet your own suggestion from last page is more or less exactly the same as stuff Riot has done on Dominion. Your own idea reduces the value of cs, also a feature of dominion which happens to also reduce the power of map control. Devaluing defensive items compared to offensive items is, in fact, something that's done on Dominion (which gives you free %pen via a buff). And if you haven't noticed already, Riot's nerf on sustain champs shares similarities with dominion's own sustain nerf and has so far done a good deal to kill sustain duo lanes (though we're far from the end of that). As much as you poo poo it the fact is that your own ideas run along the same lines as ideas Riot has already embraced on Dominion. Hyp poo poos Dominion too but it's not like we need to turn the aggression slider all the way to "Dominion" to make SR a compelling aggressive game, and obviously not everything on Dominion fits the character of SR. When armchair tweaking, your options are nearly endless depending on the type of aggression you want to promote, and you can choose to borrow or not borrow whatever elements you please from anywhere. For instance, I actually wouldn't suggest that late game respawn timers be lowered on SR because, unlike Dominion, the nexus is the one place on the map absolutely necessary to winning. It'd just make it impossible to push and win after a long team fight. Of course it's not like we need to go to Dominion for all our inspiriation. Personally, I *really* like the idea of red and blue buff not transferring on death, and that's something that's been on SR for a long time in the form of baron buff. Having a failed gank punish one of your lanes that hard hurts so dang much, even DotA doesn't make rune buffs pass on death. Making buffs easier to take but have more HP would be pretty good too. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
Obviously nid/ez aren't going to be initiators, and there's not much you can really do about stalemate situations like the one I described above, but there must be some way to incent defending teams to push harder for objectives than what's currently in place. | ||
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:56 Two_DoWn wrote: Ya I think a big late game issue would be fixed if baron did less damage. Like if you had 4 people it did no damage or little damage. That would solve nothing. Getting baron is a massive advantage -- if you make baron easier, people have to be even more careful to not lose a man or ever leave the vicinity of baron. Right now, there are situations where you can challenge a baron attempt down a man (sometimes 2) because you can let the baron wear them down. This lets people do something other than babysit next to baron all game, which already is heavily required the later games go. Making a team snowball more easily != decrease passivity. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On August 26 2011 05:02 HyperionDreamer wrote: I also think the set of "poke" champions makes the late-game very boring to watch, even if you know what's going on. Nidalee and Ezreal are two prime examples, instead of getting right in the midst of the enemy team and seriously making stuff happen, they tend to chill out and "poke". Do you remember that part of the 3rd game of clg versus tsm where CLG was trying to push TSM's exposed inhibitor, and they literally ended up poking back and forth for about 4 minutes with nothing being accomplished in the end? That's kind of what I'm trying to get at here. Obviously nid/ez aren't going to be initiators, and there's not much you can really do about stalemate situations like the one I described above, but there must be some way to incent defending teams to push harder for objectives than what's currently in place. again the problem there is the insane amount of damage that turrets do. The inhib was exposed you say but if you initiate into this then you have to either attack the inhibitor and mb get aced or you attack the enemy team which can kite you into their turrets behind. mb not the best example but I really think the main reason why passive play is so strong throughout the game is the turret damage. a secondary reason which only applies to the early game is the low minion damage. If the minions would do more damage early on then it would be much riskier to control the creepwaves by tanking them. This way you would at least do some damage to the turret with them and also the wave would push back for a while so you can play aggressive again. minion damage up, turret damage down. problem fixed. | ||
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
Of course this could just completely change the current metagame for team compositions to being push-heavy champions. | ||
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h0munkulus
Austria1481 Posts
- add smoke. for people who don't know dota this is a buyable consumable which cloaks yourself and nearby teammembers and gives a movement speed buff. you are invisible for wards but are seen by heroes and towers. this allows a team to position themselves for ganks. other things that would help: - half dmg/double life for towers. - some neutral power ups with spawn timer. similar to the runes in dota. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 26 2011 21:23 h0munkulus wrote: surprised no one has mentioned this, but there is a pretty simple solution to the lack of early game agression: - add smoke. for people who don't know dota this is a buyable consumable which cloaks yourself and nearby teammembers and gives a movement speed buff. you are invisible for wards but are seen by heroes and towers. this allows a team to position themselves for ganks. Smoke wouldn't work in LoL, given how small the map is, and how smoke CD is much longer than summoner spell CDs. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On August 26 2011 13:06 dignity wrote: The turrets easier to take down might be a good solution, due to how its nearly impossible to gank with the way the map is set up. With the massive amounts of map control you get from taking down turrets, and with them being easier to take down, the only way to truly protect your turret would be to push your lane. Of course this could just completely change the current metagame for team compositions to being push-heavy champions. Push-heavy would only be one viable option then. Another one would be to get straight up strong early game champions that are adept at bullying the more passive/farmer champs who can now just tank creeps near their turret which they could not with this change (talking about increasing minion damage and decreasing turret damage). It would also promote roaming and more aggressive jungling, because even if you cover your lane with wards, you have to decide to stand a fight with your now weaker turret which possibly leads to your death or you could leave the turret alone and go back which leads to massive damage to your turret. with this change there would be no sitting back anymore and "outsustaining" your lane while hugging turret and tanking creeps. It would lead to double stun bottom being more viable instead of just sustain+carry. And it would lead to much more aggressive top lanes and possibly more roaming and more aggressive jungling. A sideeffect would be: lasthitting will be harder than it is now. But I doubt anyone has a problem with that. | ||
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
Longer map distances means a lot of things: - Over-extending without having the river warded makes ganks from the jungle easier - Larger maps means going back to base / returning to lane after a respawn takes longer, meaning a successful early kill nets a larger advantage (promoting aggression) - Larger distances between outer towers in lanes means you have to come out from your tower (exposing yourself more to a gank) in order to gain experience and farm. It should be noted that this should help counteract the "if deaths are more punishing people will be more passive" counterargument from the above point, because people need to be out in lane in order to, well, lane. Note: Doing something such as this may require rebalancing of some champions, but this is a given with any change to core mechanics. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
Also, if oracles was more expensive to compensate for the lack of gold loss (make oracles 800 gold) and pink wards were the same price as sight wards (but with less vision range) then the game would be far more interesting. Also nerf philostone, its like perserverence but far easier to get and far stronger regen + gp5. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On August 26 2011 08:14 Craton wrote: That would solve nothing. Getting baron is a massive advantage -- if you make baron easier, people have to be even more careful to not lose a man or ever leave the vicinity of baron. Right now, there are situations where you can challenge a baron attempt down a man (sometimes 2) because you can let the baron wear them down. This lets people do something other than babysit next to baron all game, which already is heavily required the later games go. Making a team snowball more easily != decrease passivity. Your thinking about it all wrong. The point is that right now, if you want to force a fight as a team, you have no way to actually get the other team to do it. Towers are a hair to strong, and baron even more so. Lowering baron damage to next to 0 if all 5 of your teammates are there means that you force a reaction by the other team without the downside of automatically losing the fight because of baron damage. Of course, you compensate by giving baron more health so he takes longer to do, but right now there is literally NO way to force a teamfight and not have it backfire completely. Force baron? Die cuz of baron damage Fight under tower? Die cuz of tower damage. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
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