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On August 22 2011 11:45 UniversalSnip wrote:
If you are zoning your opponent in lol, they can hang back and your last hitting will eventually send the creeps to the tower. They will gain xp and gold - not as much as you, but more than enough to stay in the game. So they really have no reason to come out and be vulnerable.
If you are zoning your opponent in dota, you can deny and your last hitting will not push the lane. So they have to come out because the lane will never push to their tower.
So basically, in league of legends if you outplay your opponent with type A aggression, you hardly get rewarded for it at all by comparison, and you have the double penalty of opening yourself up to type B aggression.
As Riot will never introduce denying, we can maybe find another way to fix this problem. What if killing minions under/near your own tower would give reduced exp and/or gold? This way, if you outplay your lane (type A), you actually gain a significant advantage over them. It would promote pushing and aggressiveness to force your opponents to kill minions under their tower, and would promote inter-lane aggression as people would be crossing the river more.
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On August 22 2011 16:20 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I don't think teleport is necessarily inferior, it's just got very niche uses. it's incredibly strong under the appropriate circumstances and on the right champion. I definitely agree with you on Fortify. It's absurd that it has a longer cooldown than Flash, which has superior utility by leaps and bounds. If they lowered the cooldown on Fortify to like 45 seconds, made it team unique (as in only one Fort per team), and made it target a specific tower instead of multiple towers, it would be much more useful, but in a different way. As it is right now it's a pretty stupid spell, essentially with the long cooldown you end up paying for the rest of your towers, that are not under siege, being protected as well. Enjoy your several meager seconds of invincible towers, cuz if it didn't come at that one specific time where you only need that 5-6 seconds or whatever to get to the tower and defend it with your team, it's just pointless, and you won't get another opportunity for a loooooong time. It makes very little sense to me, which is why i lambaste people who take it when they're on my team 
I believe they took a page from DotA on this one with the decision to have such a long cooldown. In DotA people could fortify their towers essentially by using a teleport scroll on it, what it did was just lengthen the game because it became hard to push towers. Especially when it came down to push the final towers in someones base, pushing in just became too difficult and it could easily prolong the game 20mins+ longer than it should. Eventually they had to completely remove nerf the ability to fortify towers, down to a single 5min cooldown ability that had a global effect but has a shared cooldown with all heroes in your team
Fortify having a long cooldown is a good thing, the shorter the cooldown then the longer it will drag out the game.
If you believe a few seconds is something to laugh at then I think the current Metagame for LoL really hasn't developed enough. Because people didn't think it was that bad in DotA, then people actually started to abuse it and play super passive games
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Valhalla18444 Posts
oh, i forgot to mention it should make the towers stronger for 5-6 seconds, not make them invincible. 45 seconds is pretty short even for that i guess. or make it something you can only use when you're dead, lol
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On August 22 2011 18:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
oh, i forgot to mention it should make the towers stronger for 5-6 seconds, not make them invincible. 45 seconds is pretty short even for that i guess. or make it something you can only use when you're dead, lol
Replace it with a SR version of Garrison imo. Shield + Damage on allied tower or -damage on enemy tower.
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On August 22 2011 17:51 theMarkovian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 11:45 UniversalSnip wrote:
If you are zoning your opponent in lol, they can hang back and your last hitting will eventually send the creeps to the tower. They will gain xp and gold - not as much as you, but more than enough to stay in the game. So they really have no reason to come out and be vulnerable.
If you are zoning your opponent in dota, you can deny and your last hitting will not push the lane. So they have to come out because the lane will never push to their tower.
So basically, in league of legends if you outplay your opponent with type A aggression, you hardly get rewarded for it at all by comparison, and you have the double penalty of opening yourself up to type B aggression. As Riot will never introduce denying, we can maybe find another way to fix this problem. What if killing minions under/near your own tower would give reduced exp and/or gold? This way, if you outplay your lane (type A), you actually gain a significant advantage over them. It would promote pushing and aggressiveness to force your opponents to kill minions under their tower, and would promote inter-lane aggression as people would be crossing the river more.
Malz would instantly become the #1 champion as he relentlessly pushes wave after wave into your tower.
Such a change would just make it a pushing competition and leave many weak pushers out in the cold.
They could make towers deal random damage on minions though, thus making it very hard to last hit properly.
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something i didnt notice until watching like my 4th game of dota2 is that the sheer number of creeps is less, which would make one assume that the net value of each wave is less in dota than it is in LoL. Cant confirm whether or not this is the case in hon or dota1, kus i honestly dont remember and dont care enough to check. Also no idea how much impact it has on passive play, but was something interesting to be pointed out.
edit: On August 22 2011 18:59 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:51 theMarkovian wrote:On August 22 2011 11:45 UniversalSnip wrote:
If you are zoning your opponent in lol, they can hang back and your last hitting will eventually send the creeps to the tower. They will gain xp and gold - not as much as you, but more than enough to stay in the game. So they really have no reason to come out and be vulnerable.
If you are zoning your opponent in dota, you can deny and your last hitting will not push the lane. So they have to come out because the lane will never push to their tower.
So basically, in league of legends if you outplay your opponent with type A aggression, you hardly get rewarded for it at all by comparison, and you have the double penalty of opening yourself up to type B aggression. As Riot will never introduce denying, we can maybe find another way to fix this problem. What if killing minions under/near your own tower would give reduced exp and/or gold? This way, if you outplay your lane (type A), you actually gain a significant advantage over them. It would promote pushing and aggressiveness to force your opponents to kill minions under their tower, and would promote inter-lane aggression as people would be crossing the river more. Malz would instantly become the #1 champion as he relentlessly pushes wave after wave into your tower. Such a change would just make it a pushing competition and leave many weak pushers out in the cold. They could make towers deal random damage on minions though, thus making it very hard to last hit properly.
competitive players hate randomness, that would also throw the pushing mechanics totally out of whack. what happens when 1 tower gets a string of max hits and the other gets a string of min?
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On August 22 2011 17:51 theMarkovian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 11:45 UniversalSnip wrote:
If you are zoning your opponent in lol, they can hang back and your last hitting will eventually send the creeps to the tower. They will gain xp and gold - not as much as you, but more than enough to stay in the game. So they really have no reason to come out and be vulnerable.
If you are zoning your opponent in dota, you can deny and your last hitting will not push the lane. So they have to come out because the lane will never push to their tower.
So basically, in league of legends if you outplay your opponent with type A aggression, you hardly get rewarded for it at all by comparison, and you have the double penalty of opening yourself up to type B aggression. As Riot will never introduce denying, we can maybe find another way to fix this problem. What if killing minions under/near your own tower would give reduced exp and/or gold? This way, if you outplay your lane (type A), you actually gain a significant advantage over them. It would promote pushing and aggressiveness to force your opponents to kill minions under their tower, and would promote inter-lane aggression as people would be crossing the river more.
that wouldnt solve the problem and it would be too complicated.
in dota the towers feel 2-3 times weaker. you can actually lvl 1 dive ppl if you set up a good gank.
in lol the turrets do way too much damage so everyone can farm safely there if he controls the minions right.
denying would solve a part of this but its ofc out of question for lol. Just nerf the goddam turrets and ppl will start to play aggressive and pick stuff/make strats that achieve aggressive laneing and ganking.
I find it very disturbing that riot thinks (or at least they thought that some weeks ago) roamers/junglers create the problem of uncertainty which forces the laners to play passive. LOL! This is obviously completely false. Roamers and junglers allow aggressive play and ganking. Just the turrets are so goddam strong that the opportunities are far less than they should be.
Also picking strong laners that shut down their opponent is, even if executed well, not allways a good thing. IMO if you have 90% health and your opponent has 30% then you should be able to dive him if he stays there. But NO the creeps do almost no damage so they can even tank them to keep a critical mass right before their turret and if you only think to engage then you suddenly explode because the turret 3 shots you.
the only longterm solution to prevent the abundance of passive play in the early game is to nerf the turret damage. riot can imo rebalance them and give em more health/armor.
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I don't know if Riot would want to make it so it's easier to gank and what not early because the majority of strong gankers scale really well in LoL where as in dota even if you go 10/0 you will still turn into support lategame. If an Annie, Lee Sin etc...go 10/0 they are just going to carry the game 90% of the time.
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On August 22 2011 19:00 barbsq wrote:something i didnt notice until watching like my 4th game of dota2 is that the sheer number of creeps is less, which would make one assume that the net value of each wave is less in dota than it is in LoL. Cant confirm whether or not this is the case in hon or dota1, kus i honestly dont remember and dont care enough to check. Also no idea how much impact it has on passive play, but was something interesting to be pointed out. edit: Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 18:59 zalz wrote:On August 22 2011 17:51 theMarkovian wrote:On August 22 2011 11:45 UniversalSnip wrote:
If you are zoning your opponent in lol, they can hang back and your last hitting will eventually send the creeps to the tower. They will gain xp and gold - not as much as you, but more than enough to stay in the game. So they really have no reason to come out and be vulnerable.
If you are zoning your opponent in dota, you can deny and your last hitting will not push the lane. So they have to come out because the lane will never push to their tower.
So basically, in league of legends if you outplay your opponent with type A aggression, you hardly get rewarded for it at all by comparison, and you have the double penalty of opening yourself up to type B aggression. As Riot will never introduce denying, we can maybe find another way to fix this problem. What if killing minions under/near your own tower would give reduced exp and/or gold? This way, if you outplay your lane (type A), you actually gain a significant advantage over them. It would promote pushing and aggressiveness to force your opponents to kill minions under their tower, and would promote inter-lane aggression as people would be crossing the river more. Malz would instantly become the #1 champion as he relentlessly pushes wave after wave into your tower. Such a change would just make it a pushing competition and leave many weak pushers out in the cold. They could make towers deal random damage on minions though, thus making it very hard to last hit properly. competitive players hate randomness, that would also throw the pushing mechanics totally out of whack. what happens when 1 tower gets a string of max hits and the other gets a string of min?
Gold per minion wave and in the jungle is actually a lot higher in dota than lol creeps are like ~40g and like 75 for a catapult and jungle is worth considerably more as well. It is needed gold though since a lot of items are more expensive(radiance 5k butterfly 6k) and constantly having to buy tp scrolls. And i believe amount of creeps spawned goes up as the game goes on if i remember right, though haven't played in a few years, as where in lol lane minions increase in value.
Also in dota if you are being zoned you can go behind your tower and creep pull as well to deny them which is what a support in lane would do to help the farmer, also a support like lich can deny a creep a wave kind of like pirate used to to deny exp and keep lane pulled.
You can also keep a wave frozen just out of tower range on your side if you control your lane well once a pushed lane comes back.
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IIRC every 7 minutes in DotA a new melee creep is added to every wave, like 12 for ranged and 40some for an extra catapult. In LoL the creepwave contains about 120 gold, in DotA it is around 200-210.
Pushing to the tower in LoL gives some benefits, as the other player is trying to last hit against something with about 3 times his AD, meaning that some last hits are just impossible to make. If there wasn't the threat of a jungler, just pushing the lane to someone's tower would be worth it because it cuts off about a third of most hero's farm, with some exceptions (Galio can last hit quite well under the tower because of his abilities, for example)
Creep pulling in DotA was great because it made it so any hero could get some XP from jungle at level 1, denied some experience, but also had the risk of getting ganked or making the tower take extra damage due to a delayed creep wave.
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My feeling is that pushing to the tower should not be the method of demonstrating lane control as some heroes are simply too good at pushing as part of their core design for that to work.
I think it would be better if, somehow, if you were just sitting there last hitting, it didn't cause your lane to push - for example a small, temporary armor buff on enemy creeps whenever you last hit, to offset the extra damage your side is outputting.
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I'm personally a fan of minion damage being adjusted based on the presence / absence of an allied champion, only to other minions of course. By raising minion-to-minion damage when an allied champion is not present, the lane will push slightly harder, which is evened out if the lane is empty, or neutralizes the "bonus" damage that is done to a wave by a champion last hitting.
This change is subtle, and allows a player to keep a minion wave from ever advancing to an enemy tower if he wants to and plays properly (making zoning an enemy champion much more effective). This improvement on zoning promotes aggressive play from everyone. Because pushing an opponent out of lane is much more effective then it once was, while if you're being zoned, you're completely zoned, and you will need to be aggressive (perhaps with the aid of a jungler or another lane) in order to regain control of your lane instead of simply waiting to last hit under your tower.
Not sure if I'm overlooking anything that may be abusable about this though.
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If you think about it passive play stems from the core philosophy of the game, team play. Team fights are the deciding factor of success, and playing defensive is naturally better for gaining advantages. The advantages culminate to a team fight and everyone wants the best chance of winning in a team fight.
Just looking at it through a broad picture. You can pick out things like summoner spells and how middle should be a better lane for ganking, better jungle structure wards less effective.But I think it stems from the emphasis Riot puts on the importance of gaining an advantage. The game is extremely harsh at high levels of play when it comes to advantages and disadvantages, top lane goes 2-0 and you win.
Basically playing defensive gives you an advantage in a lot of games, camping is easier in fps and in sc2 you have better chance of defending an attack if you are equal, that's how games work. Advantages are so important because of how balanced the gold/exp spread is in league of legends and they climax at a team fight which is usually quite deciding, maybe too deciding.
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On the subject of wards, remember early beta when the only ward was the vision ward at 150 or 200 or something and no one ever bought them and late game turned into a 5 man roam squad trying to catch someone out of position?
Was that a consequence of an undeveloped pro scene? Or would people have bought wards had they been cheaper?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 23 2011 13:10 UniversalSnip wrote:
My feeling is that pushing to the tower should not be the method of demonstrating lane control as some heroes are simply too good at pushing as part of their core design for that to work.
I think it would be better if, somehow, if you were just sitting there last hitting, it didn't cause your lane to push - for example a small, temporary armor buff on enemy creeps whenever you last hit, to offset the extra damage your side is outputting.
The thing is, I don't think Riot would ever implement this, because they seem to view a full deny as "anti-fun". That, I think they want to discourage the ability to create a situation where you can entirely zone an opponent off creeps while still getting all the farm you want for yourself. As it stands, this is still possible in many circumstances, but only if 1) you cede your own last-hits, or 2) the opponent makes the mistake to push slightly and give you creep control, despite being at a disadvantage.
On a completely different note, others have mentioned that more punishing deaths (e.g. gold loss on death or longer death timers) would cause people to be more passive--I would like to say that while this might be the case for solo laners, it would, at the very least, NOT be the case for duo laners. This is because while 2 solo laners against each other generally view similar risk-reward (your life is worth approximately equal to your opponent's), there is an unequal relationship in the duo lane--the carry's life is worth much more than the support's, because if the support dies, the fact that he misses farm is much less significant than if the carry dies. If a support can damage the opponent's farm significantly enough, even if his own death timer is long or he loses gold, the punishment will be less on him because he does not need to be in lane to farm, and he does not have gold to lose. Thus, punishing death (through gold loss or long death timers), while not necessarily affecting the passivity in solo lanes, will definitely have an effect on how aggressively duo lane supports play (which is probably where the issue of passivity is most prevalent right now).
You could even make the argument that oracle's (which usually ends up on the support's head) exacerbates the problems of passivity, because it suddenly makes the champion who has the least to lose on death into the champion with the MOST to lose on death. Similarly, while junglers normally do not have much to lose in death as laners (you lose no farm if you have no camps up to farm), buffs transferring on death forces them to be less aggressive in their role as gankers because the punishment of transferring a single/double buff to the enemy team is extremely high.
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Two things I want changed
1.) The map is too easily locked down with few wards, so redesign some chokes.
2.) Towers do 1/2 damage with 2x attack speed
A lot of the things brought up are silly or non-issues, especially regarding "how to make denying that isn't really denying but close enough." Any kind of convoluted system where exp or gold is based on proximity to a tower is just a bad idea. Denying itself will never be added, so I'm not touching on that.
Limiting wards is also a bad idea considering how punishing lategame miscues are and prevalent oracles are.
Yes, sustain lanes are not fun because you can harass 24/7 and accomplish nothing.
Doran's items are not the problem and I'm a little amused that so many people want to make them the culprit. You should look at the IEM footage -- there was less Doran's stacking there than in solo Q, but the game was still much more passive. Make ganks more practical and you'll see how much of a non-issue this is.
They're already addressing the issue of hyper sustain + carry bot, so the meta should shift to more CC heavy supports. Top sustain will be the next thing to address.
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Common fallacy I'm seeing is people calling the same issue a promoter of aggression or a promoter of passivity. e.g. increasing the cost of death: sure, it increases passivity in the sense that you don't wish to die, but equivalently the bonus is that much greater if you kill your opponent, so it likely wouldn't increase aggression or passivity.
As I see it, the key to rewarding aggression is a consistent bonus while a player is aggressive; a one time bonus both encourages passivity to avoid the cost and aggression to gain it (consider buffs: if the opponent has blue buff, aggression is encouraged to steal it, but the opponent is encouraged to be passive to hold it).
Now, I'm not particularly experienced with dota or hon, but look at starcraft. How does aggression give a consistent bonus here? It gives map control, allowing you to deny scouting (to some extent), scout for yourself, deny expansions, expand yourself, position properly, etc. What consistent bonus does aggression give in lol? Limited zoning, potential for damaging turret.
What I'd like to see, and I'm not sure exactly how to go about it, is some good reason to be aggressive AND REMAIN aggressive. A temporary buff seems too unnatural of a solution, and somehow too likely to be exploited. One possibility I can think of (completely unreasonable, but along the right lines) is to remove minion vision, in the sense that players only get vision from buildings/other players/wards/cv. Thus winning your lane allows you greater opportunities to invade other lanes without your lane opponent being able to tell you disappeared, assuming you can zone correctly. Unfortunately, it also forces players to stick to lanes to guard towers (or just ward the lanes I suppose), as if the other team has mia characters then any tower could be pushed and quickly destroyed at almost any time.
I don't know of a good solution to propose, but I'm pretty sure the key is to promote consistent aggression rather than one-time aggression/ganks.
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Craton, halving tower damage and doubling their attack speed will result in more damage taken from towers not less. Towers do increased damage to champions with each consecutive hit so your change will result in more damage taken within the same time span under a tower.
Yay, removing minion vision would be an interesting idea, but it would make it so much more difficult to know if a huge minion wave is pushing a lane or not until it is at your tower. Yeah you could say that the incentive to ward a lane is increased but so too is the incentive to clear opponents wards from your lane so it would likely balance out
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On August 24 2011 01:20 STS17 wrote:
Craton, halving tower damage and doubling their attack speed will result in more damage taken from towers not less. Towers do increased damage to champions with each consecutive hit so your change will result in more damage taken within the same time span under a tower.
Yay, removing minion vision would be an interesting idea, but it would make it so much more difficult to know if a huge minion wave is pushing a lane or not until it is at your tower. Yeah you could say that the incentive to ward a lane is increased but so too is the incentive to clear opponents wards from your lane so it would likely balance out
half the damage and double the HP!
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On August 22 2011 11:45 UniversalSnip wrote:
If you are zoning your opponent in lol, they can hang back and your last hitting will eventually send the creeps to the tower. They will gain xp and gold - not as much as you, but more than enough to stay in the game. So they really have no reason to come out and be vulnerable.
If you are zoning your opponent in dota, you can deny and your last hitting will not push the lane. So they have to come out because the lane will never push to their tower.
So basically, in league of legends if you outplay your opponent with type A aggression, you hardly get rewarded for it at all by comparison, and you have the double penalty of opening yourself up to type B aggression.
in what way is happening to be a champion that beats the other guys champion at that stage out playing them though?
im sure there are 100 situations for which you are outplaying them, and you should be rewarded, which you admited you are because of more gold.
but then you have a situation where you arent outplaying them, you just have a better/luckier hero and it feels shitty for them that they arent playing bad, but they are basically out the game in 4-5 mins because you denied them xp and gold and got even more ahead.
they didnt play bad, maybe they just needed the extra skills that come with a level up, but you fucked them in the ass and now the 1v1 game is over. sure the whole game isnt over, maybe they will get a good gank on your team. but it seems to me to be a bad design choice that really over emphasizes the early game (even more so than it already is) to make the lane phase out right 'winnable'
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EPT
