EPT[Patch 1.0.0.123: Skarner] General Discussion - Page 59
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On August 17 2011 00:19 Southlight wrote: Fixed, really. If creep didn't hit back I'd have a fucking field day. Whats it matter? Ranged champs are all bot lane nowadays anyway. Why not change it? | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Just to make sure, you think carry + support is extremely dominant right now. But you don't limit "carry" to ranged AD champs, but also (ranged) AP. If you say that support + ranged AD is the only way to go right now then I'd disagree strongly. If you say that you have to have one champ that scales well and one champ that secures the lane and doesn't farm (not much, at least) then I pretty much agree. The only thing I would have to add then, though, is that the "support" doesn't always have to be one of the traditional supports. A lot of champs can do well in the support role as long as you play them accordingly. And of course all of this is way too general. Each lane has their strengths and weaknesses. Some extremely weird duo lane might just counter an otherwise strong duo lane extremely hard. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
Also, I agree with basically everything southlight has said over the past several pages. Basically, you're delusional if you think Soraka hasn't needed nerfs since this game exited closed beta. I'd actually be willing to bet $100 that there hasn't been a single patch where Soraka's win % has been under 50%, which is fucking retarded. She has always been out of line. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
The issue for me is that the specific healing support archetype is way the fuck too strong, and even Janna/Sona are arguably too strong (but their sustain is much less effective, so I can understand less nerfs to them). As mentioned to someone else in an unrelated IRC chan, my issue isn't so much the difficulty of the lane, how boring it is, etc. I'm frustrated by how "necessary" supported lanes are (and how flexible), how impervious to harass they seem to be when played well, and how much it limits hero choices, because let's face it, even if a handful of combos can defeat specific combos, you're still limiting yourself in terms of hero choices all because 25% of the lane decided to pick a stupidly game-changing hero. Edit: More of an example for spine, like, you can function pretty well with like, I dunno, Cait + Leona for example. You can still play keepaway with Leona, Cait does awesome damage, Leona functions pretty well with minimal farm, and farmed Cait is farmed Cait. Now the reason why I have no issue with this sort of lane is that this lane still runs risks. Because they don't have incredible sustain, both parties have to attempt to reduce the damage they take, and play efficiently. When Leona begins to be able to heal herself and her lane partner though, you start to have sustain that is over-the-top IMO, and really increases the margin for error (Cait can hit, take like 8 creep shots, and shrug it off cuz it'll get healed). This is why Taric is pretty stupid, and so is to an extent Cow. ... though obviously to a lesser extent than Soraka or Sona, because you can still overpower Taric and Cow's heals, which is why for a while I raged that Taric's the worst support and most people more-or-less forget that Cow is a pretty good bot-lane support hahah. Related example would be bot lane support Nunu, who's got a nasty support when paired with a hero like MF or Vayne (especially because permasnare + boosted Vayne = lololol) but due to his lack of heals is considered garbage relatively speaking right now. When you HAVE to have a heal to be considered any useful I find that to be a blatantly obvious problem. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
The whole time I've been reading this discussion, though, I've been thinking "what's fundamentally wrong with the support/ranged metagame?" I don't necessarily have a problem with seeing it every game, since it seems to me like the most fundamentally strong team composition. It's essentially like having 2.5 solo lanes, since your bottom lane carry is going to have the cs of a solo lane while sharing xp with the support. I think if you change the current "support", it's only going to be replaced by some other combination of 2 players where the cs is unequally distributed between them. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
On August 17 2011 00:37 Mogwai wrote: what? nerfing creep damage would make lane dominators even more dominating as you couldn't even fight back with a creep advantage. It would make the whole game more snowbally, which is stupid. Also, I agree with basically everything southlight has said over the past several pages. Basically, you're delusional if you think Soraka hasn't needed nerfs since this game exited closed beta. I'd actually be willing to bet $100 that there hasn't been a single patch where Soraka's win % has been under 50%, which is fucking retarded. She has always been out of line. Even back when her heal was over time and Infuse couldn't be cast on enemies? actually Wish cooldown was 60 seconds at level 3 and it had 2 AP ratio and healed for even more If they want clutch heals without destroying lanes, make the heal an ultimate! Or make it somehow worthless at level 1, or not heal much if there aren't many people around or something. But seriously, ultimates are designed to be the "clutch abilities" 90% of the time. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On August 17 2011 00:39 HyperionDreamer wrote: They buffed creeps a while back, and I remember that noticeably changed the way you could play aggressive in lane. IDK if that would change support/ranged bot lane at all, I just think the amount of healing and sustain that most supports give is the issue. The whole time I've been reading this discussion, though, I've been thinking "what's fundamentally wrong with the support/ranged metagame?" I don't necessarily have a problem with seeing it every game, since it seems to me like the most fundamentally strong team composition. It's essentially like having 2.5 solo lanes, since your bottom lane carry is going to have the cs of a solo lane while sharing xp with the support. I think if you change the current "support", it's only going to be replaced by some other combination of 2 players where the cs is unequally distributed between them. The difference is that as long as the sustain of the lane isn't as strong as it is now, you'd have a better ability to punish and kick them out of the lane for having an imbalanced set of damage and defense (and I don't mean imba in the gamer sense of the word, I literally mean not-balanced). Currently against most true support heroes you can't do that because they heal/recover at an insanely fast speed, giving them a tremendous amount of margin for error, allows them to always come back in lane, and punishes your lane more and more as time goes on, eventually "cracking" your setup unless you have a like support hero. Edit: For example, Smash and I banned Soraka for a couple days because we'd saunter down with Janna Panth and DEMOLISH people at level 2. But when the other team has Soraka our demolition derby only lasts like 20 seconds because then Soraka starts healing up and regaining mana at such a stupid clip that they just have to play safe for 30 seconds and boom they're back at max hp max mana. That is retarded. Utterly retarded. Something is wrong when you can run like a Panth Taric (meant to type Panth Javan but I'll leave Taric here) lane against fucking Soraka Veigar and still play out to a stalemate. VEIGAR! | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On August 17 2011 00:39 HyperionDreamer wrote: They buffed creeps a while back, and I remember that noticeably changed the way you could play aggressive in lane. IDK if that would change support/ranged bot lane at all, I just think the amount of healing and sustain that most supports give is the issue. The whole time I've been reading this discussion, though, I've been thinking "what's fundamentally wrong with the support/ranged metagame?" I don't necessarily have a problem with seeing it every game, since it seems to me like the most fundamentally strong team composition. It's essentially like having 2.5 solo lanes, since your bottom lane carry is going to have the cs of a solo lane while sharing xp with the support. I think if you change the current "support", it's only going to be replaced by some other combination of 2 players where the cs is unequally distributed between them. Thats fine. What really needs to happen is a cut in minion damage and a reduction in the punishments to dying. Something like getting a free speed boost upon spawn to get you back to lane, and maybe even cutting the rewards for kills by like 50. That way you receive less punishment for dying, and its possible to be much more aggressive. | ||
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ondema
United Kingdom21 Posts
With skill-based mitigation the support+AD lane becomes more skill-based instead of "omg we're losing play passive and heal- k we're good go aggressive" and supports can be replaced by tanks, Leona OP etc. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On August 17 2011 00:53 Mogwai wrote: what? that won't be a stalemate. Veigar soraka will crush them. lolol, fortunately Veigar blows all his cooldowns on hitting creep, so not really, unless the Veigar gets smart like Loci, then it's kinda bad :> Fucking Soraka. Fuck I hate her. Edit: Which is hypocritical because I main(ed) support heroes and spammed the shit out of Janna/Sona games, but yeahhhhhhh... | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On August 17 2011 00:52 Two_DoWn wrote: Thats fine. What really needs to happen is a cut in minion damage and a reduction in the punishments to dying. Something like getting a free speed boost upon spawn to get you back to lane, and maybe even cutting the rewards for kills by like 50. That way you receive less punishment for dying, and its possible to be much more aggressive. stuff like this is 2 sided though. This reduces your concern for dying, but how will that increase your desire to kill? It's like, ok, I can take a risk with less risk, but a necessary part of this new equation is that it's now also less reward and you end up back where you started if not even further back. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
I'm completely in favour of the Soraka nerf, but the general metagame of unequally distributing the cs on bottom lane I'm completely in favour of. It's just the most efficient way to play. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On August 17 2011 00:58 Mogwai wrote: stuff like this is 2 sided though. This reduces your concern for dying, but how will that increase your desire to kill? It's like, ok, I can take a risk with less risk, but a necessary part of this new equation is that it's now also less reward and you end up back where you started if not even further back. Well, the ultimate goal would be to push exchanges to the place where if one person decided to be aggressive, the other player was forced to match their aggression. Only real way to do this is make it so dying is less of a punishment, and make it so dealing damage to the other players is rewarding. That really becomes the heart of the issue that riot hasnt solved yet: how to reward players for hitting champions instead of minions. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On August 17 2011 01:08 Two_DoWn wrote: Well, the ultimate goal would be to push exchanges to the place where if one person decided to be aggressive, the other player was forced to match their aggression. Only real way to do this is make it so dying is less of a punishment, and make it so dealing damage to the other players is rewarding. That really becomes the heart of the issue that riot hasnt solved yet: how to reward players for hitting champions instead of minions. Cutting rewards for killing is making killing champions proportionally less profitable to killing minions, not more. You need to increase the ratio of Champion Kill Gold/Minion Kill Gold in order to encourage that and honestly, you need to extend the lanes too because with flash and the current lane lengths, there is no way to give the aggressor in an even matchup the advantage right now. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On August 17 2011 01:07 HyperionDreamer wrote: It sounds like your problem is with Soraka in general, and I agree that her infinite mana regen is kind of broken. I still don't necessarily have an issue with the not-balanced setup of one person who is essentially exposed to solo lane levels of cs while the other player is not taking any, as long as the one person who's not getting the cs isn't functioning just as well without it. I feel like certain supports (taric + soraka) don't actually need that cs to fulfill their only useful role; Soraka healing while buffing armor, and Taric stunning. I'm completely in favour of the Soraka nerf, but the general metagame of unequally distributing the cs on bottom lane I'm completely in favour of. It's just the most efficient way to play. Soraka's the most blatant but the other support heroes also have balance issues. Janna + Panth played well will almost always crush double nuke, for instance, because Janna doubles as a nuker + damage mitigator, which is insane. It's the same issue with Taric, who's more-or-less a ranged stun + nuke but adds healing on top to become simply "a better Leona." | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On August 17 2011 00:55 Southlight wrote: lolol, fortunately Veigar blows all his cooldowns on hitting creep, so not really, unless the Veigar gets smart like Loci, then it's kinda bad :> Fucking Soraka. Fuck I hate her. Edit: Which is hypocritical because I main(ed) support heroes and spammed the shit out of Janna/Sona games, but yeahhhhhhh... Fun times were had playing Sona/Kayle when both were at their peak, fun times. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
 and then we got boned by HoG spam tanks fuuuuuuuuuuu | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
those were the glorious Jarvan days | ||
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