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Zil + Cow is still a carry + support, and your team gets punished by being unable to prevent Zil from getting his megafarm, while the lane is incredibly difficult to gank. Currently the only method of dealing with any sort of carry + support lane is to either take your own carry + support and have a nice sit back and farm while pushing and prodding war, or take double burst and pray to god that you play it perfectly and the other team makes a mistake, gifting you a kill to hopefully control the lane. Any mistake when the non-support lane engages results in a complete snowball the other way - the combo lane just flat-out loses, gets no farm, and cannot prevent the carry from getting farm.
How this seems even remotely comparable to power levels in solo lanes via matchups and can seem "fair" is mind-boggling to me.
Edit:
Also LS+XZ lane is pretty nasty in terms of pure damage output. The level 1/2 burst is pretty ridiculous, as well as the ranged poke, double dash, and LS' free hit and aways. They'll actually beat/fare well against a lot of non-support lanes. This is why I was bemused by your Zil + Cow vs LS + XZ retort. LS+XZ vs Sion+Panth would be a pretty close, tough match for instance, because both are looking to burst the other. In fact I'd hazard a guess that LS+XZ would win because Sion loses too much damage when he gets bursted, esp if the LS+XZ does the gimmick quick-level-into-level2-engage.
Now take some stupid support shit like Sona/Janna/Soraka/Taric (although Sona would actually struggle against this combo with armor runes or a cloth opening, at least without a defensive carry like Vayne opening E level 1/2 or MF to snare them off). The odds of either of those combos winning PLUMMETS. I'm not even talking about a slight dip I'm talking they're probably getting fucked in the ass plummet.
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On August 16 2011 20:43 Southlight wrote:
Zil + Cow is still a carry + support, and your team gets punished by being unable to prevent Zil from getting his megafarm, while the lane is incredibly difficult to gank. Currently the only method of dealing with any sort of carry + support lane is to either take your own carry + support and have a nice sit back and farm while pushing and prodding war, or take double burst and pray to god that you play it perfectly and the other team makes a mistake, gifting you a kill to hopefully control the lane. Any mistake when the non-support lane engages results in a complete snowball the other way - the combo lane just flat-out loses, gets no farm, and cannot prevent the carry from getting farm.
How this seems even remotely comparable to power levels in solo lanes via matchups and can seem "fair" is mind-boggling to me.
Edit:
Also LS+XZ lane is pretty nasty in terms of pure damage output. The level 1/2 burst is pretty ridiculous, as well as the ranged poke, double dash, and LS' free hit and aways. They'll actually beat/fare well against a lot of non-support lanes. This is why I was bemused by your Zil + Cow vs LS + XZ retort. LS+XZ vs Sion+Panth would be a pretty close, tough match for instance, because both are looking to burst the other. In fact I'd hazard a guess that LS+XZ would win because Sion loses too much damage when he gets bursted, esp if the LS+XZ does the gimmick quick-level-into-level2-engage.
The thing is about vs support carry is not that you pray to get a kill but you force them away because they are terrible in a straight up fight. A burst comp can stop a carry support lane from pushing past river because of jungle ganks that will destroy a target flash or no flash.
The big weakness with LS+Xin is that they are defensively inapt so they can't stop the other lane from going onto them this is not a huge deal in a burst vs burst comp but in carry/support vs burst support lane you get the possibility of shutting down harass.
As for the fair part, I see it the same way, One is a safe clean option while the other relies on outplaying your opponent. A Brand vs Annie is dead even. A Brand vs Alistar causes a lot of friction between style and cause the player who uses their strengths better to win.
Anyway I my point is not that support+carry is not amazing I am saying (as in my first post) that it is too early for close lane comps to come out into the open to counter it and that the nerf is premature. It took forever to find Alistar mid is fucking amazing, That the now nerfed Malphite, Cho and Sion were great solo top champs in a meta were most people put MF mid and Annie top.
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I dont have a problem with the current meta. Id rather not see these changes, personally, as I already hate how little kids will let me farm with their ballsy shit. I cant even tell you the last time I could make it to 20 minutes without seeing a 20 kill scoreboard.
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Except support sidelane has been amazing for as long as I can remember. It's no secret that support heroes all have ridiculous win % overall in this game, and it's not just because of the newfangled strat or because they're highly effective in the whole scope of the game. Their laning power has been whack for way too long. That's why the support heroes have all been nerfed heavily over the history of this game. Yes, every single one. This is just a follow-up as Riot realizes that support heroes are still retarded.
Incidentally support + carry has also been around for an extremely long time - we used to run it in TL 5-ranked last summer/fall before I took a break from the game. It had also been a solo queue staple harkening back to release when people would take Soraka Ashe or something absurd like that (by relative standards of course, when Ashe was a very dominating ranged DPS).
It has now been almost two years since the game went "live" post-open-beta and support + ranged AD still reigns supreme, and in fact thanks to DH has never seen such a period of dominance before. This is because it is not some new strat that people haven't figured out how to beat, rather it's an old strat that people understood simply cannot be beaten, and is no longer the most thinly-veiled secret. It just happened to have become common knowledge to a wider scope of people thanks to the the massive tournament stream.
In a slightly ironic twist, the cycle of sustain vs burst vs carry vs tanks keeps turning. Back when we played l0cust regularly they would axe our support + carry bot lane by running two self-sustaining tanks bot (ie. Shen + Grag) and just stack HoGs while being d-bags sitting on an oracle being a general un-killable nuisance. Mmhmm.
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On August 16 2011 21:11 Southlight wrote:
Except support sidelane has been amazing for as long as I can remember. It's no secret that support heroes all have ridiculous win % overall in this game, and it's not just because of the newfangled strat or because they're highly effective in the whole scope of the game. Their laning power has been whack for way too long. That's why the support heroes have all been nerfed heavily over the history of this game. Yes, every single one. This is just a follow-up as Riot realizes that support heroes are still retarded.
Incidentally support + carry has also been around for an extremely long time - we used to run it in TL 5-ranked last summer/fall before I took a break from the game. It had also been a solo queue staple harkening back to release when people would take Soraka Ashe or something absurd like that (by relative standards of course, when Ashe was a very dominating ranged DPS).
It has now been almost two years since the game went "live" post-open-beta and support + ranged AD still reigns supreme, and in fact thanks to DH has never seen such a period of dominance before. This is because it is not some new strat that people haven't figured out how to beat, rather it's an old strat that people understood simply cannot be beaten, and is no longer the most thinly-veiled secret. It just happened to have become common knowledge to a wider scope of people thanks to the the massive tournament stream.
In a slightly ironic twist, the cycle of sustain vs burst vs carry vs tanks keeps turning. Back when we played l0cust regularly they would axe our support + carry bot lane by running two self-sustaining tanks bot (ie. Shen + Grag) and just stack HoGs while being d-bags sitting on an oracle being a general un-killable nuisance. Mmhmm.
This is kinda of what I mean, Support+Carry is fucking strong but as nerfs roll around what can beat it changes, Support are not even close to as strong as they were when locket was around, and there a still some a possibilities that there are champs that can beat it. Support+Carry is self explanatory while their are sustain lanes without support that can be viable but they are harder to figure out.
Basically no one runes HP regen seal/quints other than Wickd and people have not really started optimizing runes as much as now with people going 24/6/0 on carries with AR and Mr runes. Sustain is "OP" in lane but support are not the only ones that have it. Ï think it still possible to run Non carry AP + Tank bot but it is not easy to find out how it works. HP regen quints, i think, are pivotal to finding other comps to put bot than carry+support but they these nerfs might be to soon and if it happens it might be to late and support will not really be viable except for Janna.
Even 1 base all ins in SC2 are still developing currently and there have basically only been nerfs to them ever since release where they are becoming very very technical from being very very simple. Build which were safe before are now very risky vs them and I think the same development could happen in LoL were people really flesh out kinks in non support lanes.
Maokai, Gragas, Malphite, Trundle, Olaf, Yorick, Trynd, Sion, Irelia, Garen, Galio, Mundo and Cho all have good/decent sustain and could possibly be used in a duo lane with some strong team work. Most of them are not really great but if say Maokai gets buffed Garen+Maokai could outsustain Sona+Ashe lanes.
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When Locket was around support were so retarded that if you ran a non-support team against you ran the risk of losing games in 18 minutes, before you could even /surrender. They were mind-blowingly stupid then. Just because you no longer lose in 18 minutes most of the time doesn't mean they're not still stupid. They're just less so.
HP Regen runes are extremely inefficient for the majority of heroes because you're still gaining less hp at a slower rate than just a heal or shield. Not to mention these runes tend to cripple your midgame. And when a support player (like myself) can open Faerie + ward + 6 heal potions then what are your HP regen runes going to do?
It's a silly arms race of buying minimal items to start with heal potion spam, one that the carry hero doesn't need to do because the support hero can do all the 1v2ing.
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Time to build 40 CDR on Soraka. KINDLEGEM > HOG.
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On August 16 2011 21:49 Southlight wrote:
When Locket was around support were so retarded that if you ran a non-support team against you ran the risk of losing games in 18 minutes, before you could even /surrender. They were mind-blowingly stupid then. Just because you no longer lose in 18 minutes most of the time doesn't mean they're not still stupid. They're just less so.
HP Regen runes are extremely inefficient for the majority of heroes because you're still gaining less hp at a slower rate than just a heal or shield. Not to mention these runes tend to cripple your midgame. And when a support player (like myself) can open Faerie + ward + 6 heal potions then what are your HP regen runes going to do?
It's a silly arms race of buying minimal items to start with heal potion spam, one that the carry hero doesn't need to do because the support hero can do all the 1v2ing.
Well its more about stacking sustain. You can't really out lane Garen+Maokai with hp regen quints and armor seals and doing a X/6/X masteries. There are unexplored possibilities and we have seen how prematurely nerfing things that are not totally out of wack has ruind champions. Fiddle has been unviable since his nerfs in beta until recently. Kayle has been viable and terrible multiple times and is now terrible. Hell even Soraka was not viable for sometime. Every OP has not been a result of X being nerfed rather than X strat being found. Irelia is worse now than at release when she was considered worst hero in the game.
It is not like a strong sustain is not need anymore either, you see plenty of comps run without it. The biggest problem imo with this it helps melee a ton as weaker support = weak carry = weaker AP.
I think I have no more to say really. I believe this nerf is premature, Support carry is strong but I believe it might be beatable and if that is discovered after heavy nerfs it might shut healing support out of viability completely.
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Except the onus isn't on the carry + support to "out-lane," having the support drop a ward in the bushes to counter your bush shenanigans and then just having the carry happily farm for 15 minutes is perfectly acceptable. The onus is on the non-support lane to make shit happen. And unless this is a super passive lane (Soraka + Ashe for instance) it's gonna be the most boring lane and waste of the non-support. Alternatively if the nonsupport attempts to engage and fails, then they're behind because a decent set of players will NOT let you just sit around and heal. They'll press the advantage, force you to simply back, and ride the level/farm advantage to extend their lead. And because of the support hero there's no real "opening" as long as they don't make a critical error. So they're in the lead and their lead will only continue to grow. It's worse on a hero like Sona and Janna, both of whom have less fundamental babysit ability (hence why people hate on Janna in particular), but if they're given a lead they stick a heel to your throat and extinguish two heroes from the opposing team from the game.
Soraka was always viable. This is my point about people just being stupid and clueless because they follow a handful of high-level streams without testing things for themselves. Fiddle was viable but no one realized except Riot (who'd insinuated there were a bunch of OP heroes that simply weren't played). Kayle's viability has always stemmed around 1v5 heroes (her ult) or her buffs and nerfs. Other heroes that have cropped up due to discovery are a different matter.
We're talking about a whole segment of heroes that have had balance issues since release two years ago. Two years is a god damn long time for a slew of heroes to be ridiculously strong and sport ridiculous win percentages. Most heroes have a discovery period of up to 3 months. Two years is insane. Do you, then, think they should never have nerfed Taric, because people would have figured out how to beat him, when his ult healed AoE and his basic heal was 20% more effective without AP?
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HP/5 Quints give you about an extra 100 HP every minute. I like them much better then Health Quints unless we get into something silly like a level one fight. It only takes about 48 seconds of being damaged to make them more advantageous then Health Quints. It's a question of being more defensive or offensive in the laning phase when you are an AD Carry in the bot lane. Right now it's no question you go with AD Quints, but it's possible HP/5 Quints would help make up for the lost sustain with the support nerfs.
I personally feel that with two people you can take too much damage too rapidly. I like HP/5 Quints much more on Irelia, Mordekaiser, and Vladimir where AD and AP isn't as helpful as it is on other heroes and their base effects are much nicer. It's really helpful in solo lanes when you can couple it with other sustain.
Then again, if you run HP/5 Quints and HP/5/lvl Seals for the duo lane, you can get some wicked HP Regen that is over 150 per minute at level 5 not including items or passive regen. Soraka would be healing around 600 per minute at that level. Thus you'd be increasing sustain by about 50%. So it's not something you could just dismiss, the trouble would be you'd be lacking MP/5, Armor, Attack Damage, Armor Pen, Movement Speed, etc. in comparison to these changes. Snowballing off a successful laning phase is well known to be a trigger for overpowered champions and thus it's possible we should be looking at this in a different light.
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Yiruru was the first player on TL to get plat. I know this because I recorded it in that old ass thread.
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Biggest way to solve the sustain problem in this game: make it so minions CANT FUCKING DESTROY CHAMPS at early levels. Most of the healing you get is trying to heal off minion damage that you take for BEING aggressive. How does that make any sense whatsoever?
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More dudes need defensive masteries is all.
Armor yellows, Cloth+pots, and at least 14 defensive masteries = wut yo gon' do, creeps?
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On August 17 2011 00:02 Tooplark wrote:
More dudes need defensive masteries is all.
Armor yellows, Cloth+pots, and at least 14 defensive masteries = wut yo gon' do, creeps?
Patch 1.0.0.124
General:
Creeps now deal double damage to champions and prioritize them.
Blue caster minions now have 100 armor and magic resist.
Purple caster minions now are invulnerable to all types of damage.
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On August 16 2011 23:52 Two_DoWn wrote:
Biggest way to solve the sustain problem in this game: make it so minions CANT FUCKING DESTROY CHAMPS at early levels. Most of the healing you get is trying to heal off minion damage that you take for BEING aggressive. How does that make any sense whatsoever?
You have to be smart when you harass. With bush usage and/or ranged damage you can harass without taking much if any damage from the minions. Then you simply need to judge the kill properly.
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On August 16 2011 23:52 Two_DoWn wrote:
Biggest way to solve the sustain problem in this game: make it so minions CANT FUCKING DESTROY CHAMPS at early levels. Most of the healing you get is trying to heal off minion damage that you take for BEING aggressive. How does that make any sense whatsoever?
So melee champs have a chance against ranged champions...
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On August 17 2011 00:17 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 23:52 Two_DoWn wrote:
Biggest way to solve the sustain problem in this game: make it so minions CANT FUCKING DESTROY CHAMPS at early levels. Most of the healing you get is trying to heal off minion damage that you take for BEING aggressive. How does that make any sense whatsoever? So ranged champs have a chance against melee champions...
Fixed, really. If creep didn't hit back I'd have a fucking field day.
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On August 16 2011 14:05 Shiragaku wrote:
Bleh...I can see the heal on Soraka needing to be nerfed, but 50 percent?
It's 25% now. Half amount and double CD.
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On August 17 2011 00:19 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 00:17 Iplaythings wrote:On August 16 2011 23:52 Two_DoWn wrote:
Biggest way to solve the sustain problem in this game: make it so minions CANT FUCKING DESTROY CHAMPS at early levels. Most of the healing you get is trying to heal off minion damage that you take for BEING aggressive. How does that make any sense whatsoever? So ranged champs have a chance against melee champions... Fixed, really. If creep didn't hit back I'd have a fucking field day.
Ugh, thanks.
Shouldnt be posting when I am sick -_-''
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How does everyone feel about prioritizing levelling E on Ashe? If you can consistently last hit, then it gives you a better creep for creep outcome in a lane with any other ranged carry because of the gold bonus, and essentially a range limited CV, but on the other hand you're going to be weaker in gank situations and early teamfights. Thoughts?
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EPT
