EPTGeneral Discussion/Off-topic - Page 920
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Avius
Iraq1796 Posts
Wickd WetDreaM CandyPanda Nyph ocelote source: http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/33672-SKLoL_announce_new_lineup | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On June 24 2011 01:54 Two_DoWn wrote: I will admit that the servers are MUCH better than they were, on US at least (although this argument, again, is deflated when you just look at the shit EU has to deal with). I also do appreciate rune pages, but I personally dont care all that much about mastery pages and in fact find them kind of annoying to deal with. That being said. WIth the game in the state that it is in now. Is there any reason that pause, obs and replays should not be priority #1? Shiny? Do I really care all that much about a graphics update (hint: no). My point is merely that the game IS fun to play as is, and we dont need to waste any more time building maps and new content or code in new interactions for champs when instead Riot could just finish the damn game. But I dont think they care enough. Thats the vibe you get from the forums, the vibe you get from Marcou's interveiw, ect. Hell, I had a post on the general forum talking about fixing the competitive scene before they even had obs mode in beta, and the only red post I got was Tryndamere saying how they just released the new patcher when that wasnt even the point of my post, making it clear he didnt actually read it. And now all the devs keep mentioning really cool things that they are working on that they cant tell anyone but "trust us because they're really cool." I just want the shit that I KNOW I want, not the stuff that you may think that I want. Hell, I might want it down the road, but right now I want you to fit the game with the stuff that NEEDS to be done. There is a LOT for Riot to do and I think we should appreciate what Marco does to make E-Sport features more important. But you can´t expect them to be more important than things like live service, Quality control, expanding global service (china...), engine updates, client updates.... just because we want it to. I mean what would improve the game more, a new client which everyone HAS to use or replays which only a subgroup uses? Dreamhack was genius in that aspect since it put A LOT momentum behind competitive features and one of the reasons obs exists as it does right now. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
What I really can't get over though is the shit that's actually 100% within his control and sphere of influence. I really want an e-sports manager with some semblance of an idea of how tournaments work and why they work that way. Set continuation rules are kinda lame, but they also make a certain degree of sense, it seems silly to have 2nd and 3rd place determined by when you win your 2-1 set vs. the other team rather than being able to say that 2nd place won 3 out of 5 games vs. 3rd place and that's why they're 2nd and 3rd place is 3rd. Here's where it gets really stupid... Grand Finals was set up in such a way that aAa could've gone 2-2 in games vs. fnatic AND STILL WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP. That goes 100% against the spirit behind the rule of set continuation. The whole fucking point of it is that at the end of the day you can't see Team A knock Team B into losers bracket, then lose to Team B later in the day but end up with an overall even or favorable game count and still place lower. That's the sort of shit that just drives me bonkers. If he understood what he was doing and how to run a tournament, he would know this shit and I wouldn't have to be raging about it in TeamLiquid subforums. I've never run a circuit before in my life and I can tell you that at bare minimum you have to have 3 top tier circuit events evenly distributed over the course of the year to have meaningful Circuit rankings at the end of the circuit. But instead we had 2 B + 4 C tiers in the first 7 months of the season (both B tiers within the first 3 months) followed by nothing but weekly D tiers for trying to grind onto the ranking (go4LoLs, ESL Premier League counted for nothing in the circuit after the qualifiers). I mean, the whole idea of a professionally run circuit is that you go into it with at least tentative plans for your top tier tournaments to keep the scene fresh and excited and striving for something instead of Epik Gamer getting 2nd in WCG, then not playing in anything all year and still ending up top 8 because they were just so frontloaded with points due to lack of available points as the season went on. Were they a worthy team? sure, but the point of a circuit is that they should have to work for it, not disappear for 10 months, stack their roster and practice hard for a couple weeks before NA circuit playoffs. Visibility also bugs me. The competitive forums get no updates and don't have an event calendar which would honestly be the most helpful thing in the whole fucking world and most forums have built in ways for admins to add calendars (with hyperlinking too!). Comeon, what the fuck are you doing day-to-day as e-sports manager that you can't take 8 hours (1 full work day!) of banging your face on your forum until an event calendar appears and start marking tournies that you're providing prize support for? Uhg, it's just sooo sooo sooo frustrating to me. I can't wait till I stop caring about actually competing in games and want to make a career switch so that I can become an e-sports manager for some company and actually do things competently. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
well-said mr gizmo i agree with everything stated | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On June 24 2011 02:56 Avius wrote: SK new lineup: Wickd WetDreaM CandyPanda Nyph ocelote source: http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/33672-SKLoL_announce_new_lineup That means wetdream is their new jungler and oce AP, wickd tank/ap? Never the biggest wetdream fan, hopefully he does well for SK though. | ||
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Hynda
Sweden2226 Posts
On June 24 2011 03:00 Mogwai wrote:+ Show Spoiler + My biggest concerns are really just that the competitive scene is such a goddamn clusterfuck. Marcou isn't an engineer and as far as I can tell doesn't pull a whole hell of a lot of water at Riot, so maybe he really just can't get anything done on the code side. Fine, WHATEVER, I'm not happy about that idea, but in the same breath, I can get over it. Still, how fucking hard would it be to pause the game while waiting for a DC to rejoin when in spectator mode? Assuming very hard, how hard would it be to get some people to play on the hardware your sponsor provided and weed out the shitty comps that are going to crash mid semi-finals for thousands of dollars and just fucking GG a team through no fault of their own. Uhg... What I really can't get over though is the shit that's actually 100% within his control and sphere of influence. I really want an e-sports manager with some semblance of an idea of how tournaments work and why they work that way. Set continuation rules are kinda lame, but they also make a certain degree of sense, it seems silly to have 2nd and 3rd place determined by when you win your 2-1 set vs. the other team rather than being able to say that 2nd place won 3 out of 5 games vs. 3rd place and that's why they're 2nd and 3rd place is 3rd. Here's where it gets really stupid... Grand Finals was set up in such a way that aAa could've gone 2-2 in games vs. fnatic AND STILL WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP. That goes 100% against the spirit behind the rule of set continuation. The whole fucking point of it is that at the end of the day you can't see Team A knock Team B into losers bracket, then lose to Team B later in the day but end up with an overall even or favorable game count and still place lower. That's the sort of shit that just drives me bonkers. If he understood what he was doing and how to run a tournament, he would know this shit and I wouldn't have to be raging about it in TeamLiquid subforums. I've never run a circuit before in my life and I can tell you that at bare minimum you have to have 3 top tier circuit events evenly distributed over the course of the year to have meaningful Circuit rankings at the end of the circuit. But instead we had 2 B + 4 C tiers in the first 7 months of the season (both B tiers within the first 3 months) followed by nothing but weekly D tiers for trying to grind onto the ranking (go4LoLs, ESL Premier League counted for nothing in the circuit after the qualifiers). I mean, the whole idea of a professionally run circuit is that you go into it with at least tentative plans for your top tier tournaments to keep the scene fresh and excited and striving for something instead of Epik Gamer getting 2nd in WCG, then not playing in anything all year and still ending up top 8 because they were just so frontloaded with points due to lack of available points as the season went on. Were they a worthy team? sure, but the point of a circuit is that they should have to work for it, not disappear for 10 months, stack their roster and practice hard for a couple weeks before NA circuit playoffs. Visibility also bugs me. The competitive forums get no updates and don't have an event calendar which would honestly be the most helpful thing in the whole fucking world and most forums have built in ways for admins to add calendars (with hyperlinking too!). Comeon, what the fuck are you doing day-to-day as e-sports manager that you can't take 8 hours (1 full work day!) of banging your face on your forum until an event calendar appears and start marking tournies that you're providing prize support for? Uhg, it's just sooo sooo sooo frustrating to me. I can't wait till I stop caring about actually competing in games and want to make a career switch so that I can become an e-sports manager for some company and actually do things competently. Heh, Interesting because to me it seems he lacks the completly opposite direction. What an E-sports manager needs to be is a project leader and he seems to harbour about 1 cell of leadership in his entire body. I was writing a step by step guide for all the steps he missed in the making of a standard project. When I got to list number one hundred I realised I still wasn't done and that nobody wants to read a stupidly long list like that. What I don't get is if he was told that he would get 0 resources to do anything of worth, why would he play his hands like he has in the past. If he didn't knew, ie if Riot said "You'll have this, this and this to work with" and never gave it to him, why did he keep going back to them hoping they would follow throu this time. At some point you have to realise that certain things isn't happening. One of the absolute easiests things you can do in a project is to ask yourself what you can steal from other allready done projects, he didn't even manage that. Something makes me think that he is hired for alot of other things apart from E-sport managing because how the fuck someone spent this much time being this useless is beyond me. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On June 24 2011 03:00 Mogwai wrote: My biggest concerns are really just that the competitive scene is such a goddamn clusterfuck. Marcou isn't an engineer and as far as I can tell doesn't pull a whole hell of a lot of water at Riot, so maybe he really just can't get anything done on the code side. Fine, WHATEVER, I'm not happy about that idea, but in the same breath, I can get over it. Still, how fucking hard would it be to pause the game while waiting for a DC to rejoin when in spectator mode? Assuming very hard, how hard would it be to get some people to play on the hardware your sponsor provided and weed out the shitty comps that are going to crash mid semi-finals for thousands of dollars and just fucking GG a team through no fault of their own. Uhg... Chack the interview, he already said that they won´t let Alienware sponsor them again and instead use their own hardware. On June 24 2011 03:00 Mogwai wrote: What I really can't get over though is the shit that's actually 100% within his control and sphere of influence. I really want an e-sports manager with some semblance of an idea of how tournaments work and why they work that way. Set continuation rules are kinda lame, but they also make a certain degree of sense, it seems silly to have 2nd and 3rd place determined by when you win your 2-1 set vs. the other team rather than being able to say that 2nd place won 3 out of 5 games vs. 3rd place and that's why they're 2nd and 3rd place is 3rd. Here's where it gets really stupid... Grand Finals was set up in such a way that aAa could've gone 2-2 in games vs. fnatic AND STILL WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP. That goes 100% against the spirit behind the rule of set continuation. The whole fucking point of it is that at the end of the day you can't see Team A knock Team B into losers bracket, then lose to Team B later in the day but end up with an overall even or favorable game count and still place lower. Tournament structure is a REALLY subjective issue but be realistic. The 2-2 score would have meant that aAa would have won 3 games in a row. They had an extra matchup in the losers bracket that was only weighed because the matchup occured previously - otherwise they would have had to win 4 games in a row. Coming from the loosers bracket means they earned the chance for a rematch. | ||
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Lanzoma
Mexico813 Posts
On June 24 2011 03:00 Mogwai wrote: I mean, the whole idea of a professionally run circuit is that you go into it with at least tentative plans for your top tier tournaments to keep the scene fresh and excited and striving for something instead of Epik Gamer getting 2nd in WCG, then not playing in anything all year and still ending up top 8 because they were just so frontloaded with points due to lack of available points as the season went on. This is the part that annoys me the most. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On June 24 2011 01:37 locodoco wrote: http://i55.tinypic.com/2iup7q1.png im not gonna log on for the next few months can i have your account for maximum trollage i am your girlpal afterall | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On June 24 2011 03:00 Mogwai wrote: My biggest concerns are really just that the competitive scene is such a goddamn clusterfuck. Marcou isn't an engineer and as far as I can tell doesn't pull a whole hell of a lot of water at Riot, so maybe he really just can't get anything done on the code side. Fine, WHATEVER, I'm not happy about that idea, but in the same breath, I can get over it. Still, how fucking hard would it be to pause the game while waiting for a DC to rejoin when in spectator mode? Assuming very hard, how hard would it be to get some people to play on the hardware your sponsor provided and weed out the shitty comps that are going to crash mid semi-finals for thousands of dollars and just fucking GG a team through no fault of their own. Uhg... Actually pause is super easy to implement, you'd just make it halt the program loop... eh even I can program pause into programs o_O That definitely isn't the problem On June 24 2011 03:00 Mogwai wrote: What I really can't get over though is the shit that's actually 100% within his control and sphere of influence. I really want an e-sports manager with some semblance of an idea of how tournaments work and why they work that way. Set continuation rules are kinda lame, but they also make a certain degree of sense, it seems silly to have 2nd and 3rd place determined by when you win your 2-1 set vs. the other team rather than being able to say that 2nd place won 3 out of 5 games vs. 3rd place and that's why they're 2nd and 3rd place is 3rd. Here's where it gets really stupid... Grand Finals was set up in such a way that aAa could've gone 2-2 in games vs. fnatic AND STILL WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP. That goes 100% against the spirit behind the rule of set continuation. The whole fucking point of it is that at the end of the day you can't see Team A knock Team B into losers bracket, then lose to Team B later in the day but end up with an overall even or favorable game count and still place lower. Actually, matches at different periods of the tournament value differently. In SCBW it wasn't unheard of for say, Jaedong to lose to someone in groups and then beat that person 3-2 in the Finals. MLG actually does this and I really hate that system and believe it's unfair. Total games shouldn't matter at all, every Box should be an isolated instance | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
i've seen less posts that make me want to kill him than the usual 100% rate | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Hynda
Sweden2226 Posts
On June 24 2011 03:42 Shikyo wrote: According to experts doing anything with the LoL code could brak the universe.Actually pause is super easy to implement, you'd just make it halt the program loop... eh even I can program pause into programs o_O That definitely isn't the problem Actually, matches at different periods of the tournament value differently. In SCBW it wasn't unheard of for say, Jaedong to lose to someone in groups and then beat that person 3-2 in the Finals. MLG actually does this and I really hate that system and believe it's unfair. Total games shouldn't matter at all, every Box should be an isolated instance | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
The fact is Marcou has had some things under his control, that he simply has fucked up on. Fine, he can't control pause, replays, spectator mode, etc. But how can anyone say that the tournament format for Dreamhack made any sense at all? The whole fiasco going into the tournament with seedings... other things in past. His interview on LO3 just proved that he doesn't know what he's doing too me. He didn't come out with any kind of set plan for season 2, there should be 2-3 tournaments lined up for the next 2-3 months already\. Since Riot is the only one who can actually run tournaments with spectator mode, they should run them. He didn't really answer some of the questions clearly other than the pause function. He just kept talking about how awesome Dreamhack was, which while the numbers on stream were good, and matches were entertaining. The things that Marcou had control over absolutely were awful. Mogwai makes a lot of strong points, and so do a lot of other players that are lashing out at Marcou. The fact is that this whole scapegoat about team size, and manpower, doesn't matter when were talking about things like tournament format, and visibility. Now for the things out of his control, like spectator, pause, etc. Well that is just Riot's fault. They really should have freaking got these things down awhile ago. The LO3 crew, even though at the end of the show just tell Marcou he's doing a good job, and that they were just giving him a hard time, make a really excellent point that they have the chicken before the egg, and the cart before the horse. The community can not produce tournaments. The game in it's current form can't be picked up and run by MLG. We can't have weekly tournaments with awesome prize pools, cause we don't have access too pause/replays/spectator mode, the things that promote better and better competition. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
On June 24 2011 04:03 Shikyo wrote: By the way, the only thing that logically makes sense is 2 BoX's with the loser bracket team having to win 2 of them(Because the first win would drop the winner bracket team into the loser bracket and then they'd be on even ground). I agree that Riot can't run tournaments at all and my cellar SSBM tournaments with buddies have had better formats. Exactly, that's what makes me mad to no end. I have ran about 20-25 lan tournaments myself, with entry fee/prize money. Standard double elimination format, and I am just 20 years old. I don't understand how a company the size of Riot with this much money on line could fuck something so simple up. You'd think someone would have hit someone on top of head, been like.. NO, THIS CAN'T WORK LIKE THIS YOU MORONS. If we have a 1 game grand finals, it would look idiotic. If we have a 2 game grand finals and AAA wins, then it will look really really bad cause Fnatic will be knocked out by losing one match. Also our weighted matches already looked dumb enough. Don't understand  | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
On June 24 2011 04:11 Two_DoWn wrote: His argument was that since games of lol are so long 2 best of 3's could have taken 6 hours, which is a fair point. I think extended series should be the way to go here. There were about 8 hours of downtime on day 3, where they could have been playing the grand finals. I completely agree that it sucks that games can take so long, but just extend the series to a best of 5 then, at least give the fans and players something. The way they did it was just plain wrong. Also, better scheduling, and preparing, they would have made time to have an actual grand finals. I know that would have been my priority after seeing stream numbers day 1, I'm sure tons of people would have been upset if the grand finals would have been one game. I personally am not a fan of two game grand finals, 1-1. Doesn't make sense too me. Also for gtsrs, post on page before this. I'm extremely worried about the new map being 4v4. Having 3 different modes with various numbers of players is really really bad for competitive play. It's great for casual fun, cause you can mix things up. But if I have a team of 5, then I want to play a tournament that's a 4v4, that causes internal turmoil. It also makes it so the big competitions are still stuck at one 5v5 map and that's not changing in the next 2 years as far as I can tell. Just make every map for 5v5 imo, and make it so you can change the team sizes for custom games, for example, make it so you could play 8v8 in customs, why not right? I'd prefer a map editor for this game over a new map, and project shiny. That's the next feature beyond replays/obs mode that is truly needed for a competitive game. | ||
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