General Discussion/Off-topic - Page 819

The main concern the team has with Philo is that it encourages passive gameplay in the laning phase and reduces the effectiveness of harass. Of course, this applies to heals in general as well.

On June 04 2011 04:06 Shikyo wrote:
Actually it is Flash and Clairvoyance that do that, not philos. Rushing philos actually means that your total hp pool is so low that you can be bursted down rather easily.

Statikk wrote:
We have been discussing this internally and have identified similar root problems. The possible solutions however are much more difficult to tease out because there are many systems in play that make the game the way it is in competitive play. Every change has a huge consequence.

For example, nerfing Clairvoyance increases the power of the jungler and increases uncertainty for the laners (due to less map awareness). Would this lead to more kills or would it make the laners play even more passive when they are uncertain of the jungler's position?

In my opinion, the core problems are the junglers and roamers that add uncertainty to the map. If you look at duo lane play in competitive play, they are often very aggressive and if left alone 2v2 have tons of action, back and forth, pushing back to base and killing. Even solo lanes can have a lot of action dependent on the matchup, though it is much less likely for kills to happen compared to a duo lane. The second though any lane senses the presence of the jungler/incoming ganker (especially with the Red Lizard buff), they are forced to disengage and play passively. This sense of constant paranoia plagues high level play and creates a lot of passivity. This is the exact same effect stealthers like Evelynn and global champions like TF have on the map as well.

When you are certain of your local space and can predict and calculate how your actions will play out, you are much more likely to commit to fights/exchanges and do crazy stuff to push your advantage when possible. The second that certainty is gone, you can no longer play aggressively without being punished in high tier play.

I also believe the crazy amounts of regen and sustain that exists in our game trumps all forms of attrition in lane making exchanges not as interesting or punshing/rewarding. This is another key.

TL;DR
Uncertainty (caused primarily by junglers but also by roamers and globals) and sustainability seem to me like root problems of why competitive play is so passive in the early game. We are by no means looking to remove jungling or roaming from the game, but reducing the necessity of the jungler and lowering sustainability could be steps in the right direction.

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=9566669#post9566669

Statikk wrote:
Sure, I agree with you, but which ones can we actually solve while not completely shaking up LoL's fundamental gameplay that makes LoL a game we like to play?

You could add denying and better lane control so that it is easier to zone opponents. This is something we would never pursue for many reasons namely that denying is not intuitive and zoning is extremely unfun for the opposing player.

You could make CC stronger and/or lower early game defensive possibilities (items, runes, masteries) so it is easier to outright kill targets with less firepower. These would also fundamentally change how LoL plays and would make it much more akin to DotA and HoN where heroes die in single CCs and early game nuke damage. But is this fun for the average player and specifically for the League of Legends playerbase? I would venture on to say no.

We could remove Flash, but that has its own can of worms both in terms of removing potential offensive uses of Flash and in terms of balance concerns for champions who innately have a blink.

We could increase hero kill rewards and lower minion rewards, but does that not return us back to the 5 man roaming meta where no one lanes and people that do get mass ganked? Is that fun?

I would like to hear your thoughts on what other possible solutions we could implement that would solve this problem more cleanly. I'm all open ears.

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=9567501#post9567501

On June 04 2011 03:53 MoonBear wrote:

Just a heads up, but the Design Team is looking into Philo atm. They don't like it very much. So if you do run a full AP rune page, do be aware it may become obsolete in the future once Philo gets nerfed.

Of course, AP runes are still useful for some champions don't get me wrong. But do think twice about spending that IP in case you have buyer's remorse.

On June 04 2011 04:57 Yiruru wrote:
It's already clear they aren't trying to make the game competitive at all, they worry too much about low-mid Elo players. It's true that denying was unfun, but it at least gave you some control over where your lane is going. With the current state of Hp/Mp regen, you can just spam spells without worry, and tank enemy spells without worry.

Has Riot said anything about adding TP Scrolls, or some sort of brush/vision block near towers? Roaming and Jungling would still be viable, but you have to be more careful diving towers, and the person you are diving can actually try to juke instead of praying for the people diving you to fuck up.

On June 04 2011 05:14 Blind wrote:
Just wanted to confirm something with you guys with jungling amumu. Magic pen reds don't increase amumu's jungling speed because the neutral camps have 0 magic resist. Is that right? Been wasting this whole time using them thinking they made me jungle faster. I believe his passive gets the neutrals to -15 MR, but the runes do nothing to their MR. Can someone confirm this please? If this is right, I will start using armor reds (unless you have a better suggestion). Thanks!

On June 04 2011 04:13 MoonBear wrote:

There's a lot of contributing factors actually and not a lot of agreement as to how to solve this. I was going to write a long post on it, but I think Statikk summed it up better than I can so I'll just copy his thoughts here.



In a reply to Locust saying uncertainty is not the problem:


Basically, the Design Teams wants there to be more action, especially in the laning phases and also less things like people facing off at baron only warding and ward sniping. But they also don't want to negatively impact the rest of the game at the same time.

Do note that Dreamhack will be played on a finalised patch so it doesn't necessarily mean huge meta changes before then. Although there still will be a patch before then.