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United States47024 Posts
On June 03 2011 14:01 r.Evo wrote:
Random question.
Why don't people play Warmogs/Atmas combos on melee AD based champs more often? Or at least Frozen Mallet/Atmas?
I'm kinda having fun "trolling" with yi/noc where I get wriggles -> boots -> triforce -> negatron -> warmogs -> atmas -> FoN
Is this trolling or legit?
(Going triforce over ghostblade cause its beefier and feels better with the overall combo)
PS: Lategame I just sell wriggles for LW. I'd kinda want to get BT over Triforce to keep some lifesteal late but it feels so much weaker midgame. =/
PPS: brb warmogs shaco
This build is a pretty iffy example. You can't really expect to see much more than 10k gold in an average game, so getting Warmogs that late already makes it questionable whether you'll charge it before the game ends, and you'll pretty much never get to finishing Atmas and FoN.
Atmogs is strong late-game simply by nature of Warmogs being super gold/slot effective lategame when you finish everything. The thing is they generally have to be the first big items you get, because if you slot a 4k item like Triforce in before getting them, it becomes questionable whether you'll get to finish Atmas (which is where the combination actually kicks in). And if you can't guarantee having the time charging Warmogs/finishing Atmas, then you're probably better off filling in with survivability items that give you more immediate benefit like BVeil.
IMO, if you want to go Atmogs, you really have to go gung-ho and go for Atmogs, like on Smash's Jarvan build. You can't muddle around with too many items beforehand because pretty soon, the game is going to be over, and you're not going to have gotten full value out of it.
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United States37500 Posts
On June 03 2011 23:34 Southlight wrote:
There is something that Turkey calls Master Yi syndrome.
Wherein the hero has an innate paradox, treading the line between damage output (their role) and durability (not really what they're designed to do, but necessary to perform their role).
Why do I bring this up?
Because Atma's costs 2300 gold, and to make Atma's worth it you need more gold - usually at least 1000, which leads to a 3000+ gold cost.
On a hero like Master Yi this is often too expensive - the damage output from Atma + Belt is still lower than BF Sword, and the hero is so reliant on explosive damage output that investing into defensive items slows him down and sets the game further back - how much longer does he need to farm to hit "God status" to smack people down, and does he achieve this ever against equally or similarly farmed ranged DPS? How about if he's against several strong spellcasters that have CC handy?
Certain heroes also simply lack the farming speed to get to Atmog quickly enough to make it worthwhile. Nocturne, for instance, farms relatively slowly unless he can get some quick, successful ganks going (at which point it's worth asking whether it's better to get Atmog, wherein he'd need a lot of farm to grind up Warmog, or just grab an IE so he blasts people in 3 hits).
Noc and other melee/tanky DPS can circumvent this via innate skill damage or CC utility, but this is often also a simple way of displaying OP-ness: the more a hero can abuse Atmog, the more that hero probably has a power balance issue. Because you're able to freely circumvent the early-game lackluster-ness of Warmog offensively and slide into Atma's Impaler. Other heroes that can "use" the strat (ie. Sivir) simply have such good innate farming speed and so little expectations regarding their early-mid game that they can just "do it" and people just figure it's the best way to build.
If a true Melee DPS doesn't go Atmog, he's gonna need some sort of defensive item or survive any type of focus fire. Yi has very high base AD and Wuju levels to offset the early Warmog. Even if Yi goes the "typical" IE build, his explosive damage output isn't enough to take out more than one enemy champion before exploding himself.
And besides, Yi has ridiculous farm potential. Atmog all the way, hanyuyu style.
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Woot, I'm currently 2-0 in ranked games with Tristana.
:D
But I'm still 3-digit elo.
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On June 03 2011 23:47 NeoIllusions wrote:
If a true Melee DPS doesn't go Atmog, he's gonna need some sort of defensive item or survive any type of focus fire. Yi has very high base AD and Wuju levels to offset the early Warmog. Even if Yi goes the "typical" IE build, his explosive damage output isn't enough to take out more than one enemy champion before exploding himself.
And besides, Yi has ridiculous farm potential. Atmog all the way, hanyuyu style.
Hence the Master Yi syndrome, he blows late-game because he falls off: either he gets tank items and dies in 3 seconds without killing anything or he gets no tank items and dies in 1 second without killing anything anyways.
For Yi Atmog blows because he does absolutely nothing until he actually finishes the 5k farm ~_~ Gotta love that utility, I mean lack thereof.
Edit:
Incidentally I think Yi's a fantastic early-mid hero because he shines in skirmishes and if you position right/play patiently he butchers sub-farmed ranged and non-CD casters - he's also got one of the best jungle ganks and can counterjungle pretty well.
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utah such a hater. Atmog's is strong on yi, wuju + ult = explosive early damage output without needing any more than your wriggle's and Yi farms like a boss when he puts his mind to it (note: all good Yi players put their mind to it)
Sidenote: All good Nocturnes also put their mind to farming like a boss as well. If you don't, you fall off very quickly, but completely contrary to what you said, Nocturne is an amazing farmer, so it's NPNP.
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Pre-Atmog Yi only butchers ranged DPS heroes or bad casters, hue.
Noc's farm is fine, but if you just jungle trying to rush Atmog you're ridiculously reliant on your teammates during ganks and you need gank money to get it at any decent pace, IMO.
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y gank when you can steal solo lane farm after each jungle clear?
EDIT: isn't that who Yi is meant to butcher anyway?
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United States37500 Posts
I dunno. On Yi, I still do Atmog or Strelo's build (Trinity). Still like Atmog a lot though. If Yi is a bad farmer, then who the hell is good? Noc I like dsc's IE build. Real squishy until you can get Banshee's after IE but you pick your fights like a boss and you have an imba fear.
Suggestions like why Shaco doesn't go Atmog is real fk noob and I'll give you that. But Yi is retardedly fast in jungle and open lanes.
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I dunno I'm thinking of actually good/lucky Yi players that snowball really fast and start blowing up games at the 10-15 minute mark... only to run into The Brick Wall of Gibbing about 25-30 minutes in, or running into The Great Wall of Oh Crap I Don't Actually Kill Ranged DPS Anymore Because I Have Tanky Items.
Edit:
Woah woah I didn't ever say Yi's a bad farmer lol, I'm just pointing out that even if you get every last hit during lanes you still don't get that much gold THAT FAST without scoring kills, and why would you play Yi if you want a tanky DPS anyways. I try to build Atmog (or Sunfire/Atma a lot for faster combat-readiness) on Yi too but you can definitely feel his lack of damage output when you do it. I don't think you can argue otherwise, at all.
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I go IE first noct too, just saying he farms well.
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United States37500 Posts
Oh, and on a side note. Since Lee Sin is free this week, I've been playing him a lot. More jungle than solo lane. I've see Coobie's LS and he goes Atmog all the time, so I imitate. But hell, for LS, it does take forever and a half to get Atmog on him cause his jungling speed is par and ganking isn't right click/chase. For LS, I'll agree with your Atmog theory but not with Yi.
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United States37500 Posts
On June 04 2011 00:19 Southlight wrote:
I dunno I'm thinking of actually good/lucky Yi players that snowball really fast and start blowing up games at the 10-15 minute mark... only to run into The Brick Wall of Gibbing about 25-30 minutes in, or running into The Great Wall of Oh Crap I Don't Actually Kill Ranged DPS Anymore Because I Have Tanky Items.
Yi is real patient and clean up class champ. Tanky or not, you still pick your fights. If you can't clean up, go f'ing bd a tower or two.
The reason why you Atmog is because you can initiate fights once you've completed the combo and stupidly deaggro with Alpha strike.
Edit:
Woah woah I didn't ever say Yi's a bad farmer lol, I'm just pointing out that even if you get every last hit during lanes you still don't get that much gold THAT FAST without scoring kills, and why would you play Yi if you want a tanky DPS anyways. I try to build Atmog (or Sunfire/Atma a lot for faster combat-readiness) on Yi too but you can definitely feel his lack of damage output when you do it. I don't think you can argue otherwise, at all.
Then what are you saying? Yi ok/above average at farming but Atmog still bad on him?
Two questions then:
What's your suggested Yi build
Who can go Atmog if Yi shouldn't (list 3-5)
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On June 04 2011 00:20 Mogwai wrote:
I go IE first noct too, just saying he farms well.
My point, is that you can get every last hit in lane and it'd still take you a significant amount of time to hit Atmog. It's moreso troublesome for Junglers (unless you have bad or active solo lanes) because they're limited to ~600 gold per pass not counting ganks and the bits and pieces of solo lane farm you can grab. Noc farms incredibly well as the game goes on, and fortunately Noc is OP enough (#2 OP!) that he has the stupid utility to not give two cents what he builds, but I don't find that to be the case for the majority of heroes.
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On June 04 2011 00:22 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +Edit:
Woah woah I didn't ever say Yi's a bad farmer lol, I'm just pointing out that even if you get every last hit during lanes you still don't get that much gold THAT FAST without scoring kills, and why would you play Yi if you want a tanky DPS anyways. I try to build Atmog (or Sunfire/Atma a lot for faster combat-readiness) on Yi too but you can definitely feel his lack of damage output when you do it. I don't think you can argue otherwise, at all. Then what are you saying? Yi ok/above average at farming but Atmog still bad on him? Two questions then: What's your suggested Yi build Who can go Atmog if Yi shouldn't (list 3-5)
Bolded the post that you quoted to answer your questions. Also,
Jarvan (though depending on the game I favor a BF sword pre-Atmog, but he can do that because he's fucking Jarvan and he farms creepwaves in one second)
Irelia (her skills still do too much damage but I hope Riot doesn't notice)
Sivir (or you can stack BTs if you're like Yiruru)
Used to be Renek too but then they axed him. Not sure about XZ, and too lazy to think of other melee/tank heroes off the top of my head.
Edit:
Also IIRC I favor IE/BF -> Atmog on Noc, because he farms stupidly fast past a certain point. Like Smash though I favor BF/IE pre-Atmog because his ganking power is stupid, and being in jungle you tend to have a certain level of security.
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United States37500 Posts
On June 04 2011 00:27 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 00:22 NeoIllusions wrote:Edit:
Woah woah I didn't ever say Yi's a bad farmer lol, I'm just pointing out that even if you get every last hit during lanes you still don't get that much gold THAT FAST without scoring kills, and why would you play Yi if you want a tanky DPS anyways. I try to build Atmog (or Sunfire/Atma a lot for faster combat-readiness) on Yi too but you can definitely feel his lack of damage output when you do it. I don't think you can argue otherwise, at all. Then what are you saying? Yi ok/above average at farming but Atmog still bad on him? Two questions then: What's your suggested Yi build Who can go Atmog if Yi shouldn't (list 3-5) Bolded the post that you quoted to answer your questions. Also, Jarvan (though depending on the game I favor a BF sword pre-Atmog, but he can do that because he's fucking Jarvan and he farms creepwaves in one second) Irelia (her skills still do too much damage but I hope Riot doesn't notice) Sivir (or you can stack BTs if you're like Yiruru) Used to be Renek too but then they axed him. Not sure about XZ, and too lazy to think of other melee/tank heroes off the top of my head.
Sivir is derp.
Jarman I like Atmog too. Open two Philo then Mog. Those two Stones off set Yi's Wiggle's but I still say Yi will farm his Atmog faster than Jarman. Blitzes through Jungle and any open lane.
Never on Irelia.
I used to Renek too but not since his nerf. Blade openings feel stronger. He definitely feels lacking in damage while Mog is being built.
XZ sure.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On June 04 2011 00:20 NeoIllusions wrote:
Oh, and on a side note. Since Lee Sin is free this week, I've been playing him a lot. More jungle than solo lane. I've see Coobie's LS and he goes Atmog all the time, so I imitate. But hell, for LS, it does take forever and a half to get Atmog on him cause his jungling speed is par and ganking isn't right click/chase. For LS, I'll agree with your Atmog theory but not with Yi.
Back when you could abuse the double-E bug, he could clear the jungle really fast.
Coobie's LS runs Atmogs because it keeps him relevant late-game because LS starts to fall off in power mid-game-ish while taking advantage of his good early game. If you win your lane convincingly enough, going for Atmamogs is fine because even if you're only 70% effective, that's still more useful in team fights than the 40% effective Vlad you just beat up.
Also, how does Strelo's Triforce build work? I've always thought it was standard to go Wriggles into IE/Yomuus?
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United States37500 Posts
On June 04 2011 00:31 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 00:20 NeoIllusions wrote:
Oh, and on a side note. Since Lee Sin is free this week, I've been playing him a lot. More jungle than solo lane. I've see Coobie's LS and he goes Atmog all the time, so I imitate. But hell, for LS, it does take forever and a half to get Atmog on him cause his jungling speed is par and ganking isn't right click/chase. For LS, I'll agree with your Atmog theory but not with Yi. Back when you could abuse the double-E bug, he could clear the jungle really fast. Coobie's LS runs Atmogs because it keeps him relevant late-game because LS starts to fall off in power mid-game-ish while taking advantage of his good early game. If you win your lane convincingly enough, going for Atmamogs is fine because even if you're only 70% effective, that's still more useful in team fights than the 40% effective Vlad you just beat up. Also, how does Strelo's Triforce build work? I've always thought it was standard to go Wriggles into IE/Yomuus?
Strelo was BD all day with Sheen procs. Kinda like AP TF but much more MS.
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On June 04 2011 00:31 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 00:27 Southlight wrote:On June 04 2011 00:22 NeoIllusions wrote:Edit:
Woah woah I didn't ever say Yi's a bad farmer lol, I'm just pointing out that even if you get every last hit during lanes you still don't get that much gold THAT FAST without scoring kills, and why would you play Yi if you want a tanky DPS anyways. I try to build Atmog (or Sunfire/Atma a lot for faster combat-readiness) on Yi too but you can definitely feel his lack of damage output when you do it. I don't think you can argue otherwise, at all. Then what are you saying? Yi ok/above average at farming but Atmog still bad on him? Two questions then: What's your suggested Yi build Who can go Atmog if Yi shouldn't (list 3-5) Bolded the post that you quoted to answer your questions. Also, Jarvan (though depending on the game I favor a BF sword pre-Atmog, but he can do that because he's fucking Jarvan and he farms creepwaves in one second) Irelia (her skills still do too much damage but I hope Riot doesn't notice) Sivir (or you can stack BTs if you're like Yiruru) Used to be Renek too but then they axed him. Not sure about XZ, and too lazy to think of other melee/tank heroes off the top of my head. Sivir is derp. Jarman I like Atmog too. Open two Philo then Mog. Those two Stones off set Yi's Wiggle's but I still say Yi will farm his Atmog faster than Jarman. Blitzes through Jungle and any open lane. Never on Irelia. I used to Renek too but not since his nerf. Blade openings feel stronger. He definitely feels lacking in damage while Mog is being built. XZ sure.
you might wanna try it on Irelia sometime neo. I thought it sounded stupid as balls at first too, but Utah and Pokey both run it and basically just look untouchable post atmog's (though their laning is admittedly less bursty without the early damage items).
@Utah: I go IE first on Noct and then play it by ear. I only go Atmog's from there if I foresee a long game or am farming champions like a god and instead usually go for a banshee's or a GA.
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United States37500 Posts
On June 04 2011 00:36 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 00:31 NeoIllusions wrote:On June 04 2011 00:27 Southlight wrote:On June 04 2011 00:22 NeoIllusions wrote:Edit:
Woah woah I didn't ever say Yi's a bad farmer lol, I'm just pointing out that even if you get every last hit during lanes you still don't get that much gold THAT FAST without scoring kills, and why would you play Yi if you want a tanky DPS anyways. I try to build Atmog (or Sunfire/Atma a lot for faster combat-readiness) on Yi too but you can definitely feel his lack of damage output when you do it. I don't think you can argue otherwise, at all. Then what are you saying? Yi ok/above average at farming but Atmog still bad on him? Two questions then: What's your suggested Yi build Who can go Atmog if Yi shouldn't (list 3-5) Bolded the post that you quoted to answer your questions. Also, Jarvan (though depending on the game I favor a BF sword pre-Atmog, but he can do that because he's fucking Jarvan and he farms creepwaves in one second) Irelia (her skills still do too much damage but I hope Riot doesn't notice) Sivir (or you can stack BTs if you're like Yiruru) Used to be Renek too but then they axed him. Not sure about XZ, and too lazy to think of other melee/tank heroes off the top of my head. Sivir is derp. Jarman I like Atmog too. Open two Philo then Mog. Those two Stones off set Yi's Wiggle's but I still say Yi will farm his Atmog faster than Jarman. Blitzes through Jungle and any open lane. Never on Irelia. I used to Renek too but not since his nerf. Blade openings feel stronger. He definitely feels lacking in damage while Mog is being built. XZ sure. you might wanna try it on Irelia sometime neo. I thought it sounded stupid as balls at first too, but Utah and Pokey both run it and basically just look untouchable post atmog's (though their laning is admittedly less bursty without the early damage items). @Utah: I go IE first on Noct and then play it by ear. I only go Atmog's from there if I foresee a long game or am farming champions like a god and instead usually go for a banshee's or a GA.
I'll test it out after this current game as Garen but I don't like the idea of it. Her laning presence suffers greatly while you go hp items for Mog. :X But once Atmog is done, it's derp. Atmog es #1
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I do too, I mean I rarely have set builds for anyone :p Was just saying to Neo that I was fine with Atmog on Noc but I favor BF/IE before, same for Jarvan (tho with Jarv I just go hoohoo Atmog after BF/IE ~_~ stupid hero).
Her laning is less bursty and people go o_O at taking Zerker over Treads but I like it *shrugs* but I hesitate to recommend it to people because our motives for playing Irelia tend to be different. I very directly picked up Irelia for the purpose of finding a carry TANK that doesn't lose to a subsect of heroes like Amumu (who loses to like every caster...) lol.
Edit:
By the way I go Belt -> Atma or Atma -> Warmog, I never complete Mog before Atma, it's too slow.
Edit2:
Bear in mind I run the full armor page + 0/21/9 too :p It's a different playstyle and goal.
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EPT
