EPTGeneral Discussion/Off-topic - Page 794
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Aurdon
United States2007 Posts
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On May 29 2011 22:40 Kaniol wrote: I don't even know why is everyone talking about the CLG thing. Top 3 teams are getting the spots, if CLG doesn't suck they will qualify together with TSM and EG. Does it really matter in which order they achieve the 1/2/3 spot (whichever one will they get) 1) Undermining your own tournament by messing with seedings is wrong, even if the same 3 teams end up qualifying. 2) 1/2/3 Spot determines seeding for Dreamhack Brackets | ||
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TL Blazeraid
566 Posts
On May 29 2011 12:05 MoonBear wrote: Don't forget it's almost impossible to run away from her. Eve and shaco share this trait. For some reason riot thinks stealth champs + never being able to escape them = good design | ||
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On May 29 2011 22:55 TL Blazeraid wrote: Eve and shaco share this trait. For some reason riot thinks stealth champs + never being able to escape them = good design Except you literally just can't outrun Vayne. At least with Eve and Shaco you can always run away faster if you have more movespeed. Vayne just runs faster towards you, especially since her blink move on Q is designed for chasing people down and is on a 2sec CD. And she's ranged as well. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On May 29 2011 22:52 MoonBear wrote: 1) Undermining your own tournament by messing with seedings is wrong, even if the same 3 teams end up qualifying. 2) 1/2/3 Spot determines seeding for Dreamhack Brackets The tournament was undermined the moment a Team was suspected for cheating. Since there wasn´t enough proof to warrant a ban of the Teams it WAS enough to warrant action. Switching seeds was the least disrupting move - the seeds weren´t all that strong to begin with. The difference between #7 and #8 was 115 to 110 points. | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
On May 29 2011 22:52 MoonBear wrote: 1) Undermining your own tournament by messing with seedings is wrong, even if the same 3 teams end up qualifying. 2) 1/2/3 Spot determines seeding for Dreamhack Brackets 1) Yes, it is bad PR-wise, it doesn't matter at all though if only the 3 teams are at comparable level 2) Uhhh you still didn't get it? Doesn't matter if CLG played vs EG at round one or later, they'd still lose and drop to loser's bracket. Just because they would have played vs EG later doesn't change the fact that they would get the same spot if they scored the same vs EG and TSM... Just look at bracket tree, swap places between TSM and EG and... boom, TSM gonna play in the loser's bracket CLG anyway (unless the winner of RS vs DAO is gonna defeat CLG but i think most people consider it not too likely to happen) | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On May 29 2011 23:12 Kaniol wrote: 1) Yes, it is bad PR-wise, it doesn't matter at all though if only the 3 teams are at comparable level 2) Uhhh you still didn't get it? Doesn't matter if CLG played vs EG at round one or later, they'd still lose and drop to loser's bracket. Just because they would have played vs EG later doesn't change the fact that they would get the same spot if they scored the same vs EG and TSM... Just look at bracket tree, swap places between TSM and EG and... boom, TSM gonna play in the loser's bracket CLG anyway (unless the winner of RS vs DAO is gonna defeat CLG but i think most people consider it not too likely to happen) Except that if CLG was in TSM's spot on the bracket they'd be trough right now, if for some reason they lose to RS/DAO(Many dc) they'd be fucked and the messing with the seeds would be even worse. Still doesn't change the fact that you no longer get a free win because some team was suspected of cheating and you play vs the strongest or 2nd strongest team instead is retarded. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On May 29 2011 23:03 Unentschieden wrote: The tournament was undermined the moment a Team was suspected for cheating. Since there wasn´t enough proof to warrant a ban of the Teams it WAS enough to warrant action. Switching seeds was the least disrupting move - the seeds weren´t all that strong to begin with. The difference between #7 and #8 was 115 to 110 points. How is a move that involves a completely innocent third party not disrupting? Also, it WASN'T enough to warrant action, it's just speculation. And as you could see, EG beat TSM so they weren't even throwing the game. | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
On May 29 2011 23:18 JackDino wrote: Except that if CLG was in TSM's spot on the bracket they'd be trough right now, if for some reason they lose to RS/DAO(Many dc) they'd be fucked and the messing with the seeds would be even worse. Still doesn't change the fact that you no longer get a free win because some team was suspected of cheating and you play vs the strongest or 2nd strongest team instead is retarded. I'm not sure if your post added anything to the discussion so i will just sum up what happened (assuming that CLG will win vs RS/DAO, what is most probably happening): CLG had to play 1 more game than TSM before playing CLG vs TSM. That's it, nothing else, nothing more, CLG suddenly didn't drop from spot 1 to spot 3, they just had to play 1 more game against inferior team (because no US team comes close to the CLG, TSM, EG trio - or at least that's what most people think). Some people (probably following Hotshot's cries) act like seed switch suddenly made a huge impact on the tournament, just because they compare first games. But in reality it didn't change that much, added only said one game Enemies before CLG vs TSM: • for CLG: EG, OGB, COL, RS/DAO • TSM: WHALE, COL, EG | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On May 29 2011 23:31 Kaniol wrote: I'm not sure if your post added anything to the discussion so i will just sum up what happened (assuming that CLG will win vs RS/DAO, what is most probably happening): CLG had to play 1 more game than TSM before playing CLG vs TSM. That's it, nothing else, nothing more, CLG suddenly didn't drop from spot 1 to spot 3, they just had to play 1 more game against inferior team (because no US team comes close to the CLG, TSM, EG trio - or at least that's what most people think). Some people (probably following Hotshot's cries) act like seed switch suddenly made a huge impact on the tournament, just because they compare first games. But in reality it didn't change that much, added only said one game Enemies before CLG vs TSM: • for CLG: EG, OGB, COL, RS/DAO • TSM: WHALE, COL, EG You're saying "Just look at bracket tree, swap places between TSM and EG and... boom, TSM gonna play in the loser's bracket CLG", TSM is going to dreamhack wether they win or lose while the possibility exists for CLG to be knocked out(look @ last nights amount of dcs for example). The point is however, CLG is being punished because another team is suspected of cheating. It hasn't made a huge impact but it's retarded nevertheless. You act like his whine isn't justified but it completely is. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 29 2011 22:40 Kaniol wrote: I don't even know why is everyone talking about the CLG thing. Top 3 teams are getting the spots, if CLG doesn't suck they will qualify together with TSM and EG. Does it really matter in which order they achieve the 1/2/3 spot (whichever one will they get) Personally I think it was hugely rude to EG to make the bracket swap. The whole "point" was to prevent a TSM v EG match, and this fix was basically Marcou assuming that EG wasn't good enough to beat CLG and RS (since EG going to the Winner's Finals means they'd have to face TSM anyway). And now, since the EG v TSM match actually happened, Hotshot has every right to be pissed, because the bracket swap accomplished absolutely nothing. | ||
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Seiuchi
United States931 Posts
On May 29 2011 23:51 TheYango wrote: Personally I think it was hugely rude to EG to make the bracket swap. The whole "point" was to prevent a TSM v EG match, and this fix was basically Marcou assuming that EG wasn't good enough to beat CLG and RS (since EG going to the Winner's Finals means they'd have to face TSM anyway). And now, since the EG v TSM match actually happened, Hotshot has every right to be pissed, because the bracket swap accomplished absolutely nothing. Well, it gave TSM a free pass to Sweden while making CLG have to fight through the loser's bracket. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
I've played in tournaments that were ACTUALLY rigged that were less of a joke than this Dreamhack qualifier. gj Riot you can't even run a better tournament than Planet Zero~ | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
On May 29 2011 23:45 JackDino wrote: (wall of text) The point is however, CLG is being punished because another team is suspected of cheating. It hasn't made a huge impact but it's retarded nevertheless. You act like his whine isn't justified but it completely is. If you haven't noticed yet we are not arguing wether or not CLG got "punished". We are arguing if forcing an innocent team to play 1 more game is worth it in order to prevent a POSSIBILITY of cheating (matchfixing). There were 3 possible situations: 1) Riot does nothing and TSM vs EG match is not rigged - nothing happens, obviously the best out of 3 scenarios. 2) Riot does nothing and TSM vs EG match is rigged - competitive scandal, really bad PR for Riot, everyone laughs at Riot because they knew it was coming. 3) Riot switches seeds and CLG has to play 1 more game - CLG has to play 1 set of matches more, Riot doesn't risk ruined reputation. Riot chose the safe way. Honestly it wasn't such an easy choice to make, unlike what people think. Also do not forget the most important fact - the best team wins anyway, CLG has no right to QQ, Hotshot just got awesome excuse and he keeps using it. Just like in his games, he always has to find excuse to be able to avoid saying "they proved to be superior" | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On May 29 2011 23:31 Kaniol wrote: I'm not sure if your post added anything to the discussion so i will just sum up what happened (assuming that CLG will win vs RS/DAO, what is most probably happening): CLG had to play 1 more game than TSM before playing CLG vs TSM. That's it, nothing else, nothing more, CLG suddenly didn't drop from spot 1 to spot 3, they just had to play 1 more game against inferior team (because no US team comes close to the CLG, TSM, EG trio - or at least that's what most people think). Some people (probably following Hotshot's cries) act like seed switch suddenly made a huge impact on the tournament, just because they compare first games. But in reality it didn't change that much, added only said one game Enemies before CLG vs TSM: • for CLG: EG, OGB, COL, RS/DAO • TSM: WHALE, COL, EG Now, I don't know if you've ever played professionally in a tournament with money on the line(btw I have), but just swapping 1 seed makes a gigantic difference even in a double elimination tournament. This holds true especially if the format is trash and you'd be against a significantly better opponent than you should, and when it's not done properly with round robin group system before the brackets. I'm not sure if you've ever been in a situation where you should according to seeding play vs a person(or team) you're nearly guaranteed to beat, but then for almost no reason get it changed onto a person you're about 50-50 against... ESPECIALLY when TSM was the main benefitor of this despite being suspected of fraud. I mean, how does it make sense? Know what teamliquid had done if they were hosting this? They'd have let them play it out and banned both if they indeed were match fixing. That or instantly banning both teams. You don't go around involving innocent people. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On May 30 2011 00:11 Kaniol wrote: If you haven't noticed yet we are not arguing wether or not CLG got "punished". We are arguing if forcing an innocent team to play 1 more game is worth it in order to prevent a POSSIBILITY of cheating (matchfixing). There were 3 possible situations: 1) Riot does nothing and TSM vs EG match is not rigged - nothing happens, obviously the best out of 3 scenarios. 2) Riot does nothing and TSM vs EG match is rigged - competitive scandal, really bad PR for Riot, everyone laughs at Riot because they knew it was coming. 3) Riot switches seeds and CLG has to play 1 more game - CLG has to play 1 set of matches more, Riot doesn't risk ruined reputation. Riot chose the safe way. Honestly it wasn't such an easy choice to make, unlike what people think. Also do not forget the most important fact - the best team wins anyway, CLG has no right to QQ, Hotshot just got awesome excuse and he keeps using it. Just like in his games, he always has to find excuse to be able to avoid saying "they proved to be superior" CLG has to play 1 more game while the team that was suspected of cheating, TSM gets a free win. You're basically saying that the team that did nothing wrong has had it's free win taken away and instead had to play 1 more game while the cheaters get a free win is fine, I honestly don't understand how you think this is ok. Yeah it was clearly the best way, giving the team SUSPECTED of cheating a free win, now everyone will take them serious. They should've just ignored it and let them play and if it turned out EG threw the game they should've been banned afterwards. No bad PR for riot this way, no one laughing @ riot. | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
On May 30 2011 00:11 Kaniol wrote: If you haven't noticed yet we are not arguing wether or not CLG got "punished". We are arguing if forcing an innocent team to play 1 more game is worth it in order to prevent a POSSIBILITY of cheating (matchfixing). There were 3 possible situations: 1) Riot does nothing and TSM vs EG match is not rigged - nothing happens, obviously the best out of 3 scenarios. 2) Riot does nothing and TSM vs EG match is rigged - competitive scandal, really bad PR for Riot, everyone laughs at Riot because they knew it was coming. 3) Riot switches seeds and CLG has to play 1 more game - CLG has to play 1 set of matches more, Riot doesn't risk ruined reputation. Riot chose the safe way. Honestly it wasn't such an easy choice to make, unlike what people think. Also do not forget the most important fact - the best team wins anyway, CLG has no right to QQ, Hotshot just got awesome excuse and he keeps using it. Just like in his games, he always has to find excuse to be able to avoid saying "they proved to be superior" You got it wrong. The really bad PR for Riot happens with 3), not 2). Whether or not things turned out the same doesn't make it ok to screw around with the seeds that they spent the entire year playing for. And it's not like "oh the best team wins" because the whole point of seeds is that even the best team drops games to worse teams, and being seeded first gives you an advantage because you get to play easier teams. Even if they had a recording of EG saying "yes we are definitely throwing the game" I would say they are not justified in screwing around with the seeds. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 30 2011 00:11 Kaniol wrote: Also do not forget the most important fact - the best team wins anyway, CLG has no right to QQ, Hotshot just got awesome excuse and he keeps using it. Just like in his games, he always has to find excuse to be able to avoid saying "they proved to be superior" Anyone who watches BW/SC2 on this site should know this isn't always the case. MSL/OSL finals aren't always Jaedong v Flash, even though they're the "best" players. The best team can't always play 100% on form, and lucky streaks happen. Seeding allows the stronger team to have a higher chance of avoiding that sort of bad luck. On May 30 2011 00:14 Shikyo wrote: Know what teamliquid had done if they were hosting this? They'd have let them play it out and banned both if they indeed were match fixing. That or instantly banning both teams. You don't go around involving innocent people. Exactly this. There's no bad PR for you if you deal with offenders appropriately. There's a TON of bad PR if you come up with a convoluted fix based on the assumption that one of the teams isn't good enough to advance, and then that team advances and wins, meaning your "fix" was ineffectual and only served to fuck up the seeding for no reason. | ||
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