|
On April 14 2016 00:55 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 14:56 NewSunshine wrote:On April 13 2016 14:04 Acritter wrote:
I dunno exactly what to say about New Deathwing. I mean, by turn 10, how many dragons do you seriously anticipate having in your hand? Isn't the point of a dragon deck to use the smaller dragons to buy you space to play the bigger ones? On the other hand, the style of having a big minion that both needs to be silenced and removed is a powerful one (consider Sylvanas, Tirion). If it ever stands as a serious threat, Deathwing will be insanely difficult to answer properly, but otherwise, I'm not sure it'll do anything above being a vanilla 12/12.
If it just summoned two random dragons, or even two generic 5/5 dragon tokens, it would be excellent. I don't like this style of argument because the thinking is too rigid. The biggest challenge of getting a big dragon to help win the game is simply getting it into play. While they got cards to compensate for that, the ability to just drop dragons onto the battlefield wholesale will be a very welcome effect. Dragonlord might be just as slow to play as Chromaggus or Ysera, but it represents a much larger threat and can win the game if you don't kill it. It's far from a vanilla 12/12, it's a 12/12 that your opponent doesn't actually want to kill, which is insane. I'm not certain you understood my post. Let me try to break it down. Yes, the biggest challenge is getting it into play. That's exactly what I said here: Show nested quote +Isn't the point of a dragon deck to use the smaller dragons to buy you space to play the bigger ones? Getting a lot of dragons onto the field is, indeed, an extremely strong effect. In fact, it's incredibly strong. Dragons tend to be reasonably-sized minions or massively-sized minions, and even getting two out for no manacost is potentially backbreaking. The problem is: Show nested quote +I mean, by turn 10, how many dragons do you seriously anticipate having in your hand? If you've curved out with even remote effectiveness, you should expect to have played the majority of the dragons drawn by the time turn 10 rolls around. This is the weakness of new Deathwing. Note that I did not anywhere criticize it for being slow or having little effect on the battlefield; in fact, a 12/12 is one of those few bodies that is simply outrageously big enough to demand a response from almost any deck. And as far as it being a 12/12 that your opponent doesn't want to kill... Show nested quote +On the other hand, the style of having a big minion that both needs to be silenced and removed is a powerful one (consider Sylvanas, Tirion). You'll see that I said exactly that. This is why I think you didn't understand what I wrote, and instead answered a strawman you constructed which used the typical no-immediate-impact argument. Now, on a slightly different topic regarding new Deathwing: what dragons do you actually want to cheat in this way? The majority of all dragons have battlecries, often very valuable ones, and cheating them in doesn't seem particularly advantageous. As far as cheating out the small ones is concerned, you lose the critical battlecries from Azure Drake and Twilight Guardian, Twilight Drake becomes a 4/1, and basically only Dragonkin Sorcerer and Faerie Dragon come out unscathed (but who plays those?). Maybe it's time for Hungry Dragon to come to the fore? As far as cheating out the big ones is concerned, you lose the battlecries of Nefarian, Alex, and Onyxia, make Chillmaw just a 6/6 taunt, and only particularly benefit from Ysera, Chromaggus, and possibly Nozdormu. Now, if you get out only a couple of these, the board threat might appear somewhat underwhelming. If you get out too many, you leave yourself vulnerable to, say, Brawl or Equality clears. If you get out only small ones, you're not getting full value from Deathwing. If you get out too many big ones, you've massively lowered the threat density of your deck and need to win immediately or just stall out. This goes back to what I said earlier. If Deathwing added dragons to your hand, or summoned some generic bodies like Savannah Highmane, I'd be singing its praises left, right, and center. But dropping a bunch from your hand... I'm not sure that's quite so good. It's like, if Voidcaller costed 10 and summoned every demon, it wouldn't be particularly strong, right? Cheating stuff from your hand is a tempo play, and tempo plays stop meaning quite so much at 10 mana.
We're all just theorycrafting here so who knows but I think the new Deathwing is way stronger than you give it credit for. I feel like if you get it out on turn 10 and the game is relatively even it's basically game winning unless they have the exact perfect answers. As you say yourself you really can't ignore a 12/12 but using removal on this only to leave a 6/8 or a 4/12 (or both!!!) that has to also be immediately removed doesn't sound like something that you want to be facing. Also you forgot about new Deathwing pulling out original Deathwing! which is might be the strongest play of all of them. And even if it does just pull out your Alex or Nefarian or Onyxia. that's still an 8/8 that they have to deal with after having just used a removal. and even if you're right and turn 10 is too late. You haveplenty of ways to cheat this out earlier (Thaurissan or dragon consort or Druid's ramp). And we're getting some more in this expansion. Most cards from WotOG have been pretty underwhelming. This one is pretty scary. The only real question is will the meta slow down enough to be able to play these bombs?
A lot of reviewers for LoE said that while Anyfin's effect might be strong, you have to play a murlock deck and survive until turn 10 which is impossible so the card will never see play. You might be having similar thinking here. You don't have to use the current dragon decks in order to use the new deathwing.
|
United Kingdom31255 Posts
So I just tested it and Brann works with Consort so you could very easily do something like -
Turn 4: Brann
Turn 5: Dragon Consort
Turn 6: Dragonlord
Obviously dream scenario but a turn 6 dragonlord is pretty fucking scary
|
oh almost forgot, another palatress buff :D on 2nd thoughts, new dw might make the slower, less reliable dragons like chromaggus a little bit more practical: if your opponent has no transform, nor board clear - i know HUGE if, but imagine, dream, for all those timmys/johnnys and spike's dreaming of their first spectacular grand final win- getting out multiple slow, but high impact and tanky minions like ysera, chromaggus, malygos in spell damage decks, old man deathwing, chillmaw- wont backfire cuz you just put all your dragons out, right after your opponent spend his precious damage/kill on your sparkling young gaywing (yes thats how im gonna call these mindless recyles, no hate on the card itself, just the lazy ass developers. at least give the name a slight twist like neltherion the earthwarder or neltharion lord of the dragons and keep it limited to one or a select few big names like this one, not every random joke like loot hoarder- again no hate against loot hoarder, i just think it isnt that big of a name, that it deserves a second version,)
back on topic: if your opponent doesnt give up instantly it will be because he is mashing on his keyboard raging how this is not cheating/ is balanced/ not op (you know, the basic stuff). gives big value.
in short: gives a chance too the less used dragons to see some play + in the right conditions he could give huge value + lazy blizzard is lazy
|
On April 14 2016 02:03 Drazerk wrote:
So I just tested it and Brann works with Consort so you could very easily do something like -
Turn 4: Brann
Turn 5: Dragon Consort
Turn 6: Dragonlord
Obviously dream scenario but a turn 6 dragonlord is pretty fucking scary
although above scenario would obviously be better, you can even play DC on 5, next DC + Brann on 6 then DL on 7 (with space for something like a secret) if you want to be sure you get the full brann reduction
|
they really have to give an option to delete your comments, or at least flag them for a mod to be deleted
|
United Kingdom31255 Posts
There are reasons behind not wanting users to delete content / posts they've made back on Teamliquid.
In other news: http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20095516/hearthstone-live-stream-whispers-of-the-old-gods-4-13-2016
Join Lead Designer Ben Brode and Hearthstone master caster Dan “Frodan” Chou on April 21 at 10AM PST for what promises to be a thrilling series of show matches against members of the Hearthstone design team. We’ll be unveiling a number of new cards from Whispers of the Old Gods, so you’ll want to be sure to attend!
Be sure to ‘follow’ the official Hearthstone Twitch channel to be notified when the stream begins. The Old Gods will be VERY DISAPPOINTED if you don’t make it!
|
United Kingdom31255 Posts
|
That is a really good card, there are some decent minions at 3 cost. And it's a common, insane arena card.
If Jeweled Scarab sees play, I think this one will as well.
|
To be fair, there's a difference between being able to choose between 3 random 3-mana cards, and being stuck with whatever gets summoned.
But a 5/5 that summons anything from a 1/1 to a 3/3 to a 5/2 with various potential (and helpful) effects is pretty good.
|
I would have really expected all common cards for Mage and Paladin to be crazy bad in Arena to try to balance it. SO this card is kind of a surprise in that aspect.
That card by itself may ensure that mage continue to have the #1 place as the arena class for at least one other extension.
That said for constructed: by itself the card is absolutely awesome excellent value. But it only makes sense in a mid-range/board based game plan and a rather slow one at that. And that's the one thing the mage class is not known for in constructed.
So it has a lot of potential for a deck that does not exists yet. Maybe the rest of the cards of the extension will give that deck a little more flesh. (after all we have seen about nothing about the mage class yet).
To be followed then. Huge potential but nothing to realize it yet.
|
Faceless Summoner seems absurdly powerful. Injured Blademaster is certainly the jackpot, giving you 9-12 of stats for 6 mana. King Mukla is another. This alone can win you the game right that moment. For more reasonable scenarios, just getting a 4-3 or 3-4 minion for 9-8 or 8-9 of total stats for 6 mana is again incredible value.
As for utility, there are cards like Flamewaker, Kirin Tor Mage, Shadowfiend, Raid Leader etc. There are obviously some bad drops but even a 1-1 would make it a 6-6 for 6 which of course is poorly distributed but not even that bad for a worst case scenario.
|
Faceless Summoner seems like a really solid card. For 6 mana you are getting almost 5 mana of stats on one minion and on average a 3 mana body with an effect. Basically 7-7.5 mana worth of goods for 6 mana and only one card. There aren't many insane random 3 drops like there are 2 drops from Shredder (such as Milhouse Manastorm, Succubus, Totem Golem, etc). There are some solid options though like Harvest Golem, Eydis and Fjola, etc. Theres also multiple 3 cost charge minions so sometimes you get an immediate removal/burn effect from this card. I'd rate this an easy 7 or 8 out of 10. The 6 drop slot in Tempo Mage has never really had anything appealing to play. If you remember, Jab actually surprised many players by playing Grand Crusader in his Tempo Mage deck for a tournament (I forget which tourney). This card has a lot more immediate board presence than Grand Crusader.
Edit: Thanks Shikyo, I didn't think about King Mukla or Injured Blademaster.
Edit2: Can also summon Deathlord in Wild which is pretty crazy.
|
United Kingdom31255 Posts
I mean compare it to Silver Hand Knight one of the best cards in Arena... you pretty much just crush that in terms of value
|
|
|
On April 14 2016 02:14 Drazerk wrote:There are reasons behind not wanting users to delete content / posts they've made back on Teamliquid. In other news: http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20095516/hearthstone-live-stream-whispers-of-the-old-gods-4-13-2016Show nested quote +Join Lead Designer Ben Brode and Hearthstone master caster Dan “Frodan” Chou on April 21 at 10AM PST for what promises to be a thrilling series of show matches against members of the Hearthstone design team. We’ll be unveiling a number of new cards from Whispers of the Old Gods, so you’ll want to be sure to attend!
Be sure to ‘follow’ the official Hearthstone Twitch channel to be notified when the stream begins. The Old Gods will be VERY DISAPPOINTED if you don’t make it!
Well now we know when the last half will be revealed. Giving us 5 days to figure out what decks to stun the standard ladder with. Before realizing tempo mage is still way better 
|
I hadn't even looked at the 3-mana minions. Literally the least stats you can get is 0/3 or 2/1 for Alarm-O-Bot and Argent Horserider respectively, so the worst-case-scenario is you've got stats on curve, split across a couple minions to make clearing them harder, and special abilities to boot.
|
On April 14 2016 03:47 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 02:14 Drazerk wrote:There are reasons behind not wanting users to delete content / posts they've made back on Teamliquid. In other news: http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20095516/hearthstone-live-stream-whispers-of-the-old-gods-4-13-2016Join Lead Designer Ben Brode and Hearthstone master caster Dan “Frodan” Chou on April 21 at 10AM PST for what promises to be a thrilling series of show matches against members of the Hearthstone design team. We’ll be unveiling a number of new cards from Whispers of the Old Gods, so you’ll want to be sure to attend!
Be sure to ‘follow’ the official Hearthstone Twitch channel to be notified when the stream begins. The Old Gods will be VERY DISAPPOINTED if you don’t make it!
Well now we know when the last half will be revealed. Giving us 5 days to figure out what decks to stun the standard ladder with. Before realizing tempo mage is still way better
We have to believe in Blizzard and the power of the Old Gods. I'm praying that the first few weeks after release are just Dragon decks vs Old God decks.
|
The new mage card seems like the savannah highmane of mage. 6 drop with absurd stats. If tempo mage sticks around it will easily see play because, well, it is an insane tempo/value card. Also could see play in a midrange or minion-focused grinder deck. Obviously not worth running in any type of combo mage.
Overall I'm alright with insane cards like this being printed, if its class specific (so not as ubiquitous as shredder). The rarity makes no sense though, as this seems very oppressive in arena.
|
On April 14 2016 03:52 Sajaki wrote:
The new mage card seems like the savannah highmane of mage. 6 drop with absurd stats. If tempo mage sticks around it will easily see play because, well, it is an insane tempo/value card. Also could see play in a midrange or minion-focused grinder deck. Obviously not worth running in any type of combo mage.
Overall I'm alright with insane cards like this being printed, if its class specific (so not as ubiquitous as shredder). The rarity makes no sense though, as this seems very oppressive in arena.
Seems like an apt comparison. There is no tribal synergy like in the case of Savannah Highmane, but you get more value upfront.
|
The only way Faceless Summoner isn't seeing a lot of play is if Mage ends up being so awful at running minion-based decks that not even the Summoner can save it.
On April 14 2016 01:50 FryBender wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2016 00:55 Acritter wrote:On April 13 2016 14:56 NewSunshine wrote:On April 13 2016 14:04 Acritter wrote:
I dunno exactly what to say about New Deathwing. I mean, by turn 10, how many dragons do you seriously anticipate having in your hand? Isn't the point of a dragon deck to use the smaller dragons to buy you space to play the bigger ones? On the other hand, the style of having a big minion that both needs to be silenced and removed is a powerful one (consider Sylvanas, Tirion). If it ever stands as a serious threat, Deathwing will be insanely difficult to answer properly, but otherwise, I'm not sure it'll do anything above being a vanilla 12/12.
If it just summoned two random dragons, or even two generic 5/5 dragon tokens, it would be excellent. I don't like this style of argument because the thinking is too rigid. The biggest challenge of getting a big dragon to help win the game is simply getting it into play. While they got cards to compensate for that, the ability to just drop dragons onto the battlefield wholesale will be a very welcome effect. Dragonlord might be just as slow to play as Chromaggus or Ysera, but it represents a much larger threat and can win the game if you don't kill it. It's far from a vanilla 12/12, it's a 12/12 that your opponent doesn't actually want to kill, which is insane. I'm not certain you understood my post. Let me try to break it down. Yes, the biggest challenge is getting it into play. That's exactly what I said here: Isn't the point of a dragon deck to use the smaller dragons to buy you space to play the bigger ones? Getting a lot of dragons onto the field is, indeed, an extremely strong effect. In fact, it's incredibly strong. Dragons tend to be reasonably-sized minions or massively-sized minions, and even getting two out for no manacost is potentially backbreaking. The problem is: I mean, by turn 10, how many dragons do you seriously anticipate having in your hand? If you've curved out with even remote effectiveness, you should expect to have played the majority of the dragons drawn by the time turn 10 rolls around. This is the weakness of new Deathwing. Note that I did not anywhere criticize it for being slow or having little effect on the battlefield; in fact, a 12/12 is one of those few bodies that is simply outrageously big enough to demand a response from almost any deck. And as far as it being a 12/12 that your opponent doesn't want to kill... On the other hand, the style of having a big minion that both needs to be silenced and removed is a powerful one (consider Sylvanas, Tirion). You'll see that I said exactly that. This is why I think you didn't understand what I wrote, and instead answered a strawman you constructed which used the typical no-immediate-impact argument. Now, on a slightly different topic regarding new Deathwing: what dragons do you actually want to cheat in this way? The majority of all dragons have battlecries, often very valuable ones, and cheating them in doesn't seem particularly advantageous. As far as cheating out the small ones is concerned, you lose the critical battlecries from Azure Drake and Twilight Guardian, Twilight Drake becomes a 4/1, and basically only Dragonkin Sorcerer and Faerie Dragon come out unscathed (but who plays those?). Maybe it's time for Hungry Dragon to come to the fore? As far as cheating out the big ones is concerned, you lose the battlecries of Nefarian, Alex, and Onyxia, make Chillmaw just a 6/6 taunt, and only particularly benefit from Ysera, Chromaggus, and possibly Nozdormu. Now, if you get out only a couple of these, the board threat might appear somewhat underwhelming. If you get out too many, you leave yourself vulnerable to, say, Brawl or Equality clears. If you get out only small ones, you're not getting full value from Deathwing. If you get out too many big ones, you've massively lowered the threat density of your deck and need to win immediately or just stall out. This goes back to what I said earlier. If Deathwing added dragons to your hand, or summoned some generic bodies like Savannah Highmane, I'd be singing its praises left, right, and center. But dropping a bunch from your hand... I'm not sure that's quite so good. It's like, if Voidcaller costed 10 and summoned every demon, it wouldn't be particularly strong, right? Cheating stuff from your hand is a tempo play, and tempo plays stop meaning quite so much at 10 mana. + Show Spoiler +
We're all just theorycrafting here so who knows but I think the new Deathwing is way stronger than you give it credit for. I feel like if you get it out on turn 10 and the game is relatively even it's basically game winning unless they have the exact perfect answers. As you say yourself you really can't ignore a 12/12 but using removal on this only to leave a 6/8 or a 4/12 (or both!!!) that has to also be immediately removed doesn't sound like something that you want to be facing. Also you forgot about new Deathwing pulling out original Deathwing! which is might be the strongest play of all of them. And even if it does just pull out your Alex or Nefarian or Onyxia. that's still an 8/8 that they have to deal with after having just used a removal. and even if you're right and turn 10 is too late. You haveplenty of ways to cheat this out earlier (Thaurissan or dragon consort or Druid's ramp). And we're getting some more in this expansion. Most cards from WotOG have been pretty underwhelming. This one is pretty scary. The only real question is will the meta slow down enough to be able to play these bombs?
A lot of reviewers for LoE said that while Anyfin's effect might be strong, you have to play a murlock deck and survive until turn 10 which is impossible so the card will never see play. You might be having similar thinking here. You don't have to use the current dragon decks in order to use the new deathwing.
You're missing the significant cost of having to run enough big drops to make Deathwing reliably land big minions. It's not easy to just put in several cards that cost 8 mana and up, and if you have more than one of them in your hand (which you need for Deathwing to be good), you're running a major risk of getting way behind on board. Once you're behind on board, your opponent can get the maximum advantage out of their cards - either by answering your threats perfectly or ignoring them entirely. Either way, you're in a lot of trouble.
You need to think about what a card does and how you get there. The best cards require very little sacrifice in either category. Deathwing seems to require a good amount. I wish it just summoned tokens instead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
