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On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards.
Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake.
Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos)
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On May 19 2014 14:32 seansye wrote:
The best change I can think of is make leeroy 5 damage. And seriously NovaTheFeared? changing gadgetzan to 4/2 would make him more crappier than cultmaster and he only costs 4 mana.
Nonsense, he'd still be a lot stronger than cultmaster.
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On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos)
Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less.
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Opened 6 top streams and none were playing miracle rogue. Give the meta some time. Miracle rogue is far less op than zoolock.
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On May 19 2014 16:17 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos) Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less.
Preparation and Shadowstep are at best, one offs generally in decks that don't run Gadgetzan.
Ancestral Healing has been experimented with, especially in metas where Black Knight is good. Gaara also recently shared a Shaman list that ran double Totemic Might and Gadgetzan, Lifecoach I believe even played a list that had double Gadgetzan in it. (Shaman).
Combo decks that have draw engines add flavour to deck archetypes that the game really needs. The problem is how ridiculously consistent it is and how difficult it is to get a good matchup against it, not the draw engine. The nature of the deck requires a good draw engine, any nerf to the engine would just cripple the deck as a whole.
Merely increasing the HP cap of heroes or nerfing Leeroy's damage / something would force Miracle Rogues to play a lot tighter, and also solve ridiculous Handlock burst / etc. at once.
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Gadgetzan, low cost spells, and Leeroy.. will fix like 50% of HS balance issues. Next would be Druid, Warrior, and Lock.
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On May 19 2014 16:38 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 16:17 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos) Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less. Preparation and Shadowstep are at best, one offs generally in decks that don't run Gadgetzan. Ancestral Healing has been experimented with, especially in metas where Black Knight is good. Gaara also recently shared a Shaman list that ran double Totemic Might and Gadgetzan, Lifecoach I believe even played a list that had double Gadgetzan in it. (Shaman). Combo decks that have draw engines add flavour to deck archetypes that the game really needs. The problem is how ridiculously consistent it is and how difficult it is to get a good matchup against it, not the draw engine. The nature of the deck requires a good draw engine, any nerf to the engine would just cripple the deck as a whole. Merely increasing the HP cap of heroes or nerfing Leeroy's damage / something would force Miracle Rogues to play a lot tighter, and also solve ridiculous Handlock burst / etc. at once.
If the draw engines aren't changed now, everyone will play pure combo decks in a year.
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On May 19 2014 16:51 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 16:38 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 16:17 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos) Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less. Preparation and Shadowstep are at best, one offs generally in decks that don't run Gadgetzan. Ancestral Healing has been experimented with, especially in metas where Black Knight is good. Gaara also recently shared a Shaman list that ran double Totemic Might and Gadgetzan, Lifecoach I believe even played a list that had double Gadgetzan in it. (Shaman). Combo decks that have draw engines add flavour to deck archetypes that the game really needs. The problem is how ridiculously consistent it is and how difficult it is to get a good matchup against it, not the draw engine. The nature of the deck requires a good draw engine, any nerf to the engine would just cripple the deck as a whole. Merely increasing the HP cap of heroes or nerfing Leeroy's damage / something would force Miracle Rogues to play a lot tighter, and also solve ridiculous Handlock burst / etc. at once. If the draw engines aren't changed now, everyone will play pure combo decks in a year.
Which was why I offered an alternative. Increase the HP of Heroes.
Combo decks should be more difficult to successfully pull off. This gives non-Warrior decks more leeway to stabilise and potentially kill off the combo player or force them to play pieces of their combo to survive.
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On May 19 2014 16:53 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 16:51 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 16:38 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 16:17 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos) Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less. Preparation and Shadowstep are at best, one offs generally in decks that don't run Gadgetzan. Ancestral Healing has been experimented with, especially in metas where Black Knight is good. Gaara also recently shared a Shaman list that ran double Totemic Might and Gadgetzan, Lifecoach I believe even played a list that had double Gadgetzan in it. (Shaman). Combo decks that have draw engines add flavour to deck archetypes that the game really needs. The problem is how ridiculously consistent it is and how difficult it is to get a good matchup against it, not the draw engine. The nature of the deck requires a good draw engine, any nerf to the engine would just cripple the deck as a whole. Merely increasing the HP cap of heroes or nerfing Leeroy's damage / something would force Miracle Rogues to play a lot tighter, and also solve ridiculous Handlock burst / etc. at once. If the draw engines aren't changed now, everyone will play pure combo decks in a year. Which was why I offered an alternative. Increase the HP of Heroes. Combo decks should be more difficult to successfully pull off. This gives non-Warrior decks more leeway to stabilise and potentially kill off the combo player or force them to play pieces of their combo to survive.
Increasing hero health would weaken any kind of aggro deck, and the Hunter hero ability in general far too much.
I'd rather we decrease burst potential (aka nerf leeroy).
When you can deal 30 damage in one turn with nothing on the board, then there's a problem.
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On May 19 2014 16:56 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 16:53 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 16:51 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 16:38 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 16:17 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos) Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less. Preparation and Shadowstep are at best, one offs generally in decks that don't run Gadgetzan. Ancestral Healing has been experimented with, especially in metas where Black Knight is good. Gaara also recently shared a Shaman list that ran double Totemic Might and Gadgetzan, Lifecoach I believe even played a list that had double Gadgetzan in it. (Shaman). Combo decks that have draw engines add flavour to deck archetypes that the game really needs. The problem is how ridiculously consistent it is and how difficult it is to get a good matchup against it, not the draw engine. The nature of the deck requires a good draw engine, any nerf to the engine would just cripple the deck as a whole. Merely increasing the HP cap of heroes or nerfing Leeroy's damage / something would force Miracle Rogues to play a lot tighter, and also solve ridiculous Handlock burst / etc. at once. If the draw engines aren't changed now, everyone will play pure combo decks in a year. Which was why I offered an alternative. Increase the HP of Heroes. Combo decks should be more difficult to successfully pull off. This gives non-Warrior decks more leeway to stabilise and potentially kill off the combo player or force them to play pieces of their combo to survive. Increasing hero health would weaken any kind of aggro deck, and the Hunter hero ability in general far too much. I'd rather we decrease burst potential (aka nerf leeroy). When you can deal 30 damage in one turn with nothing on the board, then there's a problem.
Hmmm point taken.
30 damage in one turn with nothing on board is an exaggeration though. You need to deal SOME damage before hand. (Realistically you will have to Eviscerate stuff on board)
But i still don't think Gadgetzan should be nerfed. It's generally set up on Turn 6. And decks like Handlock and certain Aggro classes have proven capable of keeping it honest, and those aren't really combo decks in the same vein as Gadgetzan. And from the other side, its nice to have Miracle as an option to keep certain decks from being dominant as well. I can agree to nerfing Leeroy's burst, but not the deck type in general.
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On May 19 2014 17:04 S_SienZ wrote:
30 damage in one turn with nothing on board is an exaggeration though. You need to deal SOME damage before hand. (Realistically you will have to Eviscerate stuff on board)
Leeroy Shadow Step Leeroy Shadow Step Leeroy Cold Blood Cold Blood Preparation Eviscerate
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nerfing is sooooooo boring for card games. I would much rather have future cards solve current problems instead, much in the same way acidic swamp and Harrison are there to counter weapons. that way, the meta is more dynamic. if you just go around nerfing the flavor of the week, things will stagnate, and the game will be boring.
heres my 10 sec, shity card design:
a 0/6 neutral minion for 4 that says: "whenever your opponent draws more than one card per turn, put a copy of that card in your hand"
or something like that.
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"Whenever you cast a spell, expend one mana crystal and draw a card."
Still makes the card good value but stops these endless turns where you have card after card.
It also indirectly nerfs the popular turn 5 auctioneer+coin+conceal play.
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On May 19 2014 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:
"Whenever you cast a spell, expend one mana crystal and draw a card."
Still makes the card good value but stops these endless turns where you have card after card.
It also indirectly nerfs the popular turn 5 auctioneer+coin+conceal play.
This will destroy the deck.
In effect its a mana wraith for spells.
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On May 19 2014 18:33 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:
"Whenever you cast a spell, expend one mana crystal and draw a card."
Still makes the card good value but stops these endless turns where you have card after card.
It also indirectly nerfs the popular turn 5 auctioneer+coin+conceal play. This will destroy the deck. In effect its a mana wraith for spells.
Would it? Mana Wraith doesn't let you draw a card when you play a minion..
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On May 19 2014 18:48 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 18:33 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:
"Whenever you cast a spell, expend one mana crystal and draw a card."
Still makes the card good value but stops these endless turns where you have card after card.
It also indirectly nerfs the popular turn 5 auctioneer+coin+conceal play. This will destroy the deck. In effect its a mana wraith for spells. Would it? Mana Wraith doesn't let you draw a card when you play a minion..
I mean you're essentially tacking on Mana Wraith's effect onto the current Gadgetzan.
In fact its worse since it only affects you.
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Well the idea would be you would be coerced into playing things first, before spamming card draw and draining your mana, greatly (potentially) reducing the effect of the auctioneer for miracle rogues without punishing other classes too severely. Just one of many suggestions though 
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On May 19 2014 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:
"Whenever you cast a spell, expend one mana crystal and draw a card."
Still makes the card good value but stops these endless turns where you have card after card.
It also indirectly nerfs the popular turn 5 auctioneer+coin+conceal play.
You could also make him draw the cards for you at the end of the turn.
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On May 19 2014 13:23 Came Norrection wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 13:21 mezmery wrote:
why dont you cry about handlock? he has ability to pressure with his early set, at least removal pressure and at the same time can deal up to 28 damage at 1 turn, without any board presence(leeroy+pow+faceless+solufirex2), and he crushes turtle classes like priest or pally with jaraxxus easily). and his draw mechanic is also nice Because we all get killed by that combo every time we face handlock...
So the basis of your complaint is is that Miracle Rogue's primary (and almost only) win condition (the Leeroy Combo) is what you die to every time you face Miracle Rogue? Er.....
Tons of suggestions here would flat out kill the deck, not "fix" it as some people feel it needs. Miracle Rogue is essentially entirely reliant on the Leeroy combo win condition (barring a few edge cases of epic Van Cleef combos that survives long enough to attack with). If you screw around too heavily with that combo or the ability to draw into that combo the deck isn't going to be viable anymore.
Personally I just feel this is all kinda reactionary. Miracle didn't "suddenly" become super strong; its been around for a while. Whether it coming to the fore as a result of the downfall of Hunter is a passing trend or not remains to be seen; and going for the throat of another thing right after the UTH nerf seems rather impatient.
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Guys, Gadgetzan Auctioneer is not the problem.
Again, Leeroy is the issue here,not the low cost spells and card draw.If there is any Rogue card that needs change that would be Conceal.They could change it so it doesn't work with Gadgetzan Auctioneer or minions with abilities(like Questing Adventurer).
I guess that would be a slight nerf to Gadgetzan Auctioneer because they can't keep him alive easily.
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EPT
