EPTProposed Miracle Rogue Nerf - Page 7
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Aceace
Turkey1305 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
Druid is my second most played class and is probably my favourite class overall because of how solid and versatile it is, but I'm not so deluded to think that any Druid archetype is "difficult" to play. The hardest it gets to actually playing is Token, and it's not like the thought process behind the overall strategy of Druid decks is all that difficult either. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2602 Posts
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On May 28 2014 08:31 Aceace wrote: I am seriously saying all classes which try to establish a board are harder than miracle rogue. No. Druid quite literally plays itself from the hand. The only deck that you listed that I can agree to being harder than Miracle would be Handlock. In case you haven't noticed, not contesting for board = more worrying about dying early game. Rogue has some good clears, but if you don't draw 1 of 4 (Backstab and SI) against a fast deck you are quite literally fucked by Turn 5. | ||
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Aceace
Turkey1305 Posts
On May 28 2014 09:23 koreasilver wrote: By that logic zoolock would be the most vigorously hard deck to play. Despite all your nonsense, Miracle Rogue is concerned with board control - if they didn't they wouldn't play cards like sap, SI7 agent, and blade flurry. A certain kind of board control is necessary to finish the game because there has to be a clear path to the enemy champion with 7Leeroy - why do you think Miracle Rogue was weak during the Hunter era? It wasn't just because flare reveals concealed units - it was moreso due to traps. Why do you think handlock is considered to have an advantageous matchup against Miracle Rogue, and why do you think conservative taunt heavy Druid decks do well against Miracle Rogue? Miracle Rogue doesn't have to establish board control in the same way that more conventional decks do, but it still has to maintain control over the board if it wants to win or else it won't be able to survive until it establishes its win conditions. If you seriously think Druid, which is probably the most straightforward class with the most uncomplicated decision making is harder to play than Miracle Rogue then you just have no idea how Miracle Rogue actually plays and probably have never even played the deck before. Just watching Kolento play Miracle for a couple minutes will make it crystal clear that he always makes sure he has control over the board. He is always interacting with his opponent's board so that he doesn't lose tempo - it's not "solitaire" in any real sense. If Miracle literally did not care at all for establishing the board then you wouldn't see players put down SI7 or farseer when they won't make use of their abilities for the pure purpose of putting down a 3/3 on the board. Druid is my second most played class and is probably my favourite class overall because of how solid and versatile it is, but I'm not so deluded to think that any Druid archetype is "difficult" to play. The hardest it gets to actually playing is Token, and it's not like the thought process behind the overall strategy of Druid decks is all that difficult either. First of all im playing Malygos miracle mainly and Paladin for fun atm. Also my most played class is druid. To be honest I don't have any experience with warlock. I just don't like it. As you say "miracle rogue is concerned with board control". In a different perspective of course. I think you're missing one critical point. Rogues aren't concerned with board control. Rogues main concern is both heroes HP and getting rid of enemy minions. Killing enemy minions delay the game to reach necessary cards. Dealing damage to enemy hero with your minions, lower the amount of burst damage. This is not "board control" This is different. And I don't believe this is harder than conventional board control. Because conventional board control includes board clears, card efficiency and tempo advantage. When im playing miracle I consider enemy removal. But not like playing with druid or paladin. Because they will use some mana to remove my minion and they put a smaller minion on board with leftover mana. This will help delay the game. Please compare Druid vs priest or Control paladin vs Handlock matchup against a Miracle rogue matchup. I'm not saying miracle is easier than "Hit to the Face" decks. I'm just saying Miracle Rogue isn't that hard to play. I'm just saying its way easier than people say. | ||
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Sherlock117
United States40 Posts
On May 28 2014 04:34 S_SienZ wrote: I can always play Vanilla YGO too if all I wanted was to bump minions into each other. It's hardly as OP as many exaggerate it to be. Frustrating to play against? Maybe, but so are quite a few decks out there. Archetype variety is crucial to the variety of a TCG. At most, Miracle needs a subtle nerf. A subtle nerf was exactly what I was suggesting. I am not asking to wipe Miracle Rogue out of the game. It's just annoying that right now top level bo3/bo5 matches are basically won by whose Miracle Rogue deck wins more games. There may be bad suggestions in this thread, but at least they are attempts to find a solution. A post saying that all the suggestions in this thread are trash is not necessary and just ruins the community. I'd prefer to see constructive posts. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On May 28 2014 11:53 Sherlock117 wrote: A subtle nerf was exactly what I was suggesting. I am not asking to wipe Miracle Rogue out of the game. It's just annoying that right now top level bo3/bo5 matches are basically won by whose Miracle Rogue deck wins more games. There may be bad suggestions in this thread, but at least they are attempts to find a solution. A post saying that all the suggestions in this thread are trash is not necessary and just ruins the community. I'd prefer to see constructive posts. Your post which I responded to was saying that the archetype being dead would not be a bad thing, hardly subtle. Yes, it's necessary. A bad solution is worse than continuing to ponder for a better one. You're operating under the assumption that doing something is always better than nothing, which is not true. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On May 19 2014 21:15 Fi0na wrote: LEEEEROOOOOY JEEEEENKIIIIIIINS LEEEEROOOOOY JEEEEENKIIIIIIINS LEEEEROOOOOY JEEEEENKIIIIIIINS Completely off topic: This should now be compulsory to write at the top of any thread discussing Miracle Rogue. I can't stop laughing. X-D On May 23 2014 23:54 weikor wrote: nozdormo - You and Your opponent can now play at most 2 cards per turn. Fixed, still active on the turn he dies, so if he gets assasinated, your opponent can play one card Wording should probably be simpler like "Only two cards can be played this turn." to fit in with the way Hearthstone words things and to make the effect "sticky" beyond Nozdormu dying. Your previous text sort of implied it was tied to the card being on the board. Don't necessarily agree with it with respect to Miracle Rogue and not sure if it'd "fix" Nozdormu; but its a fascinating idea. | ||
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pjc8513
20 Posts
On May 28 2014 09:23 koreasilver wrote: blah blah blah .... I'm not saying miracle is easier than "Hit to the Face" decks. I'm just saying Miracle Rogue isn't that hard to play. I'm just saying its way easier than people say. Frankly, the problem with all of this is that -- the game itself isn't "that hard to play". The game is simple. It is intentionally simple. Relative to other decks, though, Miracle is a nice challenge if at all for no other reason that it is a very different play style and mindset. | ||
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Sherlock117
United States40 Posts
On May 28 2014 14:19 S_SienZ wrote: Your post which I responded to was saying that the archetype being dead would not be a bad thing, hardly subtle. Yes, it's necessary. A bad solution is worse than continuing to ponder for a better one. You're operating under the assumption that doing something is always better than nothing, which is not true. Nope. Wasn't my post. I don't want the deck archetype dead. I've been fairly clear about that the entire thread (though I don't expect anyone to read the entire thing). I agree in some cases doing nothing is better than doing something. However, this is not one of those cases. There are things that can be done that will improve the game. For example, releasing a new set of cards (i.e. Curse of Naxrammus) is doing something and is probably going to be better than doing nothing. I guess we'll just have to wait until those new cards to come out until Miracle Rogue has a competitive (not gimicky) hard counter. Oh well. | ||
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
I figured I'd go with a taunt heavy style to try and counter the burst damage. He took out 3 taunts all 4/5 or greater while losing no minions and taking 4 total damage. I'm around 70% vs everybody else and 5% vs this, otherwise I'd likely go from rank 3 to a decent bit higher. This deck is garbage and makes me extremely annoyed and not enjoy the game. After several more games vs this garbage I think I'll hang it up until they do something. EDIT: In the spirit of the thread (I came here originally looking for ways to play vs this silliness) I'll go with an idea as well. I like the idea of making Leeroy not able to get spells cast on it. That's already in the game for some cards. This way the rogue can't do 87 burst damage on turn 8. This doesn't change leroy too much (actually might buff it vs say a mage), but stops the thing that makes this miracle rogue deck just stupid. | ||
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serum321
United States606 Posts
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padiseal2
Austria721 Posts
Trump suggested on stream that Gadgetzan should be replaced by a legendary with excactly the same stats and effect. This way you can only have one in your miracle deck and it doesn't really affect any other decks since no one runs 2 gadgetzans anyways | ||
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Reaperbros7
United States0 Posts
channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/ReaperBros7 Hearthstone vid: | ||
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Simplo
0 Posts
P.S. I do not play Miracle. | ||
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Fulla
United Kingdom519 Posts
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AceLunaris
Malaysia2 Posts
seems legit, no? | ||
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Beamo
France1279 Posts
On May 29 2014 13:03 Iron_ wrote: I figured I'd go with a taunt heavy style to try and counter the burst damage. He took out 3 taunts all 4/5 or greater while losing no minions and taking 4 total damage. I'm around 70% vs everybody else and 5% vs this, otherwise I'd likely go from rank 3 to a decent bit higher. Until high legend you face way more warlocks than Rogues (31% vs 15% for my experience on more than 400 games played between rank 5 and rank 1 on EU), you even face more druids (18%) than rogues... Miracle Rogue is not broken for the ladder like Hunter used to be (completely killing Shaman along the way). The biggest problem with Rogue is how it's killing tournament play. With the stats you are announcing if on US server you find the same amount of rogues as on EU you should of hit legend in less than 125 games. And you have to be pretty bad to lose 95% of the time vs Miracle with a deck you have tailored to beat it... >.< | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
On May 30 2014 18:30 AceLunaris wrote: what about making Leeroy untargetable by spells a-la Faerie Dragon? No Shadowsteps, no PO's, no Cold Bloods seems legit, no? not a bad idea, but it also hurt some other decks. i think this is exactly where root cause analysis needs to be done, is it leeroy, is it gadgetzan or something else? for me, i'd change gadgetzan to either draw 2 cards max per turn, or only draw cards for spells over 2 mana. preparation shiv is just disgusting, 3 cards for 0 mana? sure | ||
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