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I was thinking about Blizzard's recent nerf to Unleash the Hounds. It was a small change that mitigated how dominating face hunter and mid-range hunter had been at the very top levels (and indeed on ladder as well). The nerf was spot on and very effective, while not being a crippling blow to the Hunter class. While Hunter is now very rarely seen on ladder I think it is still competitive (just not dominating), but maybe needs a very small buff elsewhere (maybe change buzzard to 2/2?).
Now I'm wondering if similar very small changes could be made to Miracle Rogue to bring that deck down from OP status in line with all the other top decks. Right now Miracle Rogue is used by basically every single pro at the top level. While it is more difficult to play for less experienced ladderers than mid-range Hunter was, it can still be very annoying to encounter and know that there is essentially nothing you can do and you just hope the Miracle Rogue player doesn't have the right cards and you do.
Here are a couple ideas of some nerfs that could be implemented:
- Change Preparation from 0 mana to 1 mana
- Keep Preparation cost the same but reduce the cost of the next spell by 2 instead of 3
- Change Shadowstep from 0 mana to 1 mana
For people who can take an unbiased look at the entire game, what do you think the result of either of both of these changes would be? Would they completely cripple Rogue? Preparation is only used in Miracle Rogue and not in the Tempo version, so maybe changing that card is more appropriate.
Other than that, the only OP deck I run across right now is Zoolock, but no idea how that could possibly be nerfed.
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I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
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Yeah, I don't think the problem is shadowstep or preparation. It's the ability to draw 15 cards in one turn. THAT is what needs to be fixed imo.
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Id rather nerf leeroy than anythung. I like the deck concept.
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Doesn't target the real problem of miracle which is either the finishers or the gadzetan.
I'd rather not see miracle nerfed for a while even though I don't play it. The meta will shift. It's also a combo deck which Hearthstone lacks.
Prep would be strictly worse than innervate if it did 2 mana. The rogue cards should still all be good for a standard rogue deck. Imagine no one ever thought of miracle. Would the cards still be good? I guess prep could be argued to still be ok.
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Gadgetzan needs to just be limmited to 1 card per turn and be buffed to a 4/5.
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I love the miracle rogue deck 
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Nerf Leeroy to kingdom come. It's dumb for every class to be able to have a Fireball with barely any drawback.
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On May 19 2014 08:05 obesechicken13 wrote:
Doesn't target the real problem of miracle which is either the finishers or the gadzetan.
I'd rather not see miracle nerfed for a while even though I don't play it. The meta will shift. It's also a combo deck which Hearthstone lacks.
I agree with this. I think it's important for Hearthstone to have a variety of different decks with different playstyles.
On May 19 2014 07:21 Alryk wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the problem is shadowstep or preparation. It's the ability to draw 15 cards in one turn. THAT is what needs to be fixed imo.
I don't recommend this. The ability to draw 15 cards IS the combo portion of the deck. My suggestion is rather to change conceal in some way, or give classes a way to deal with a concealed Gadgetzan. The part that makes Rogue a bit questionable is the fact that they drop Gadgetzan, conceal it, and there's nothing the opponent can do about the fact that they're going to lose next turn. THAT'S the problem IMO.
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If there had to be a nerf I'd much rather see it go on Preparation than Gadgetzan. I think it's an interesting card, same cost as a drake, potentially better drawing, but no guarantee of a draw and no +spell upside. Prep is a key component that allows Miracle to work, however even nerfing that would be a bad move in my opinion. Lets be frank, Prep is actually a pretty sucky card, it's kind of cool that people have not only found a use for it, but made it an essential component to a very powerful deck. Also I don't think Miracle is going to be around forever, if you don't draw your Gadgetzan's/Preps/Conceals then you usually fall flat. Also it's doing quite well as Agro's popularity has been toned down a little.
Miracle is probably going to fall out of fashion anyway, and if you nerf Prep or Gadget you're potentially wrecking some great deck combinations when more cards are released.
Leeroy is kind of a problem card too, Sylvanas, Tink and Pagle were all nerfed because they were been used in literally every type of deck. Leeroy has a viable place in every single deck with the exception of very control based decks that lack burst capability.
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If you nerf conceal, I'd hope it's not a straight nerf but rather had some upside. Eg the stealth becomes permanent like Master of Disguise. Breaks on drawing cards w/ the creature.
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On May 19 2014 07:21 Alryk wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the problem is shadowstep or preparation. It's the ability to draw 15 cards in one turn. THAT is what needs to be fixed imo.
lol, Preparation and Shadowstep are the only reason Gadget can draw 15+ Try doing a Miracle style deck with any other class, sure Druid has Innervate and Moonfire, but those aren't particularly useful spells at that time in the game. The ability to use Prep for 0 and Draw and them play another useful spell (Sap, Eviscerate, Shiv) for 0 leading to another draw is invaluable. Also Shadow step allows for the 12/16/18/22 damage Leeroy combos that allow Miracle to be so passive for 5-7 turns.
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On May 19 2014 08:46 Greendotz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 07:21 Alryk wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the problem is shadowstep or preparation. It's the ability to draw 15 cards in one turn. THAT is what needs to be fixed imo. lol, Preparation and Shadowstep are the only reason Gadget can draw 15+ Try doing a Miracle style deck with any other class, sure Druid has Innervate and Moonfire, but those aren't particularly useful spells at that time in the game. The ability to use Prep for 0 and Draw and them play another useful spell (Sap, Eviscerate, Shiv) for 0 leading to another draw is invaluable. Also Shadow step allows for the 12/16/18/22 damage Leeroy combos that allow Miracle to be so passive for 5-7 turns.
I've definitely drawn more than 8 cards as druid with two wild growths. But yeah, that's on T10.
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I think miracle will already be weaker as the meta shifts and new cards are released. Druids are getting an answer to a concealed auctioneer with poison seeds.
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Shadowstep leroy needs the nerf bat. Once you take that mechanic out of miracle its a lot more balanced.
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As a Miracle Rogue player... this deck is TOUGH to win with!
There are lots of games where you play one wrong spell early and you can't cycle in time to race your opponent.
I don't think it needs a nerf because the deck itself doesn't win you the game. You really have to weigh that early game backstab on a 3/2 correctly. If you use it too late, you die before you can cycle (you take 3 dmg 3 turns in a row.) If you use it too early, your gadgetzan stops cycling one card earlier than the combo you needed (or the taunt you're up against lives with 2 hp and kills you next turn.)
It's a fun deck but far from a guaranteed win like Hunter was.
On May 19 2014 08:46 Greendotz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 07:21 Alryk wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the problem is shadowstep or preparation. It's the ability to draw 15 cards in one turn. THAT is what needs to be fixed imo. lol, Preparation and Shadowstep are the only reason Gadget can draw 15+ Try doing a Miracle style deck with any other class, sure Druid has Innervate and Moonfire, but those aren't particularly useful spells at that time in the game. The ability to use Prep for 0 and Draw and them play another useful spell (Sap, Eviscerate, Shiv) for 0 leading to another draw is invaluable. Also Shadow step allows for the 12/16/18/22 damage Leeroy combos that allow Miracle to be so passive for 5-7 turns.
Warlock works pretty well, too.
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I think the free mechanic and the draw mechanics are what needs to be looked at across the board. Unleash the Hounds could draw way too much and still can (although the mana cost helps with using it for a kill) and prevents buzzard unleash on turn 4.
Hunter's Mark for 0 mana
Prep, shadowstep and Backstab for 0 mana combo'd with Auction or other cards.
Soul Fire for 0 mana
If you add a mana to these cards it would be great. I was playing as warlock last night and played 13 straight warlocks on ladder. In so many of those matches the game shifted too far with turn 2 or 3 soul fires. I just in general don't like
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The problem is Leeroy i think not Preparation or Shadowstep.
Leeroy + Shadowstep / UTH / Windfury - Rockbiter / Power Overwhelming - Faceless and many other combos.You see Leeroy in so many different different decks,even control decks,it's insane and Blizz need to nerf him somehow but not make him unplayable.
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I don't play miracle, or rogue in general, but I've seen a lot of streamers using all their turn time when they play miracle. what if we lessen the amount of time per turn given for all classes?
Though quite frankly i don't know how hard that would hit other classes, as i just play druid mindlessly.
on a side note, would nozdormu be a viable option against the miracle rogues? or perhaps we could buff nozdormu? idk.
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Cards lke Gadgetzan Auctioneer and Starving Buzzard are bad for the game in the long run and need to be changed.
With Gadgetzan Auctioneer in the game, Blizzard cannot add more 0 or 1 mana spells to the game. If you leave him be, every class will sooner of later devolve into a Miracle combo deck that draws their whole deck in1 turn.
Same goes for Starving Buzzard, which makes it impossible for Blizzard to add good low mana cost beasts to the game.
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Lol all your suggestions doesn't nerf Miracle, it kills it completely. Not that I have any better suggestions, but still. I also don't think Miracle rogue is anywhere near as bad as hunter was, but I'm sure we're ganna see a lot of bitching and moaning for it to be fixed.
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1 card cap on gadgetzan is huge overreaction. A cap of 3 or 4 would be more fair.
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On May 19 2014 11:41 seansye wrote:
Lol all your suggestions doesn't nerf Miracle, it kills it completely. Not that I have any better suggestions, but still. I also don't think Miracle rogue is anywhere near as bad as hunter was, but I'm sure we're ganna see a lot of bitching and moaning for it to be fixed.
welcome to a gaming forum where 90% of the threads are just QQ and salt from gamers
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On May 19 2014 08:35 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 08:05 obesechicken13 wrote:
Doesn't target the real problem of miracle which is either the finishers or the gadzetan.
I'd rather not see miracle nerfed for a while even though I don't play it. The meta will shift. It's also a combo deck which Hearthstone lacks.
I agree with this. I think it's important for Hearthstone to have a variety of different decks with different playstyles. Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 07:21 Alryk wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the problem is shadowstep or preparation. It's the ability to draw 15 cards in one turn. THAT is what needs to be fixed imo. I don't recommend this. The ability to draw 15 cards IS the combo portion of the deck. My suggestion is rather to change conceal in some way, or give classes a way to deal with a concealed Gadgetzan. The part that makes Rogue a bit questionable is the fact that they drop Gadgetzan, conceal it, and there's nothing the opponent can do about the fact that they're going to lose next turn. THAT'S the problem IMO.
Yeah I needed to actually think that through. I was a bit sleep deprived, one nap later and I agree much more  . When I play against Miracle it's significantly easier when they don't get 2-3 turns of auctioneer draws. Just nerfing auctioneer would be unnecessary I guess. They should definitely wait a bit before changing anything at least. Miracle hasn't been on top for a long time yet.
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You could just lower the hp on auctioneer to make it play into more AoE damage cards.
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not really serious:
give auctioneer a 50% chance to draw when a spell is played. Would ad some serious salt to the game ^.^
Everytime Auctioneer draws a card he looses a life.
Auctioneer draws card when enemy plays spells.
Auctioneer draws for both. ( depending who plays a spell, similar to cho)
I guess Auctioneer is going to be nerfed in some way for sure.
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On May 19 2014 10:34 S1eth wrote:
Cards lke Gadgetzan Auctioneer and Starving Buzzard are bad for the game in the long run and need to be changed.
With Gadgetzan Auctioneer in the game, Blizzard cannot add more 0 or 1 mana spells to the game. If you leave him be, every class will sooner of later devolve into a Miracle combo deck that draws their whole deck in1 turn.
Same goes for Starving Buzzard, which makes it impossible for Blizzard to add good low mana cost beasts to the game.
Or they simply don't add more 0/1 mana spells to the game?! just look at shaman. they have 3 useful 1 mana spells but they are nowhere near as consistent with the draws as you would suggest with your doom argument.
On a sidenote: As far as I've seen it, the rise of miracle-rogue also enabled classes like mages to shine (for a bit). I even meet them sometimes at r3. So it's not all bad.
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On May 19 2014 11:49 Murkinlol wrote:
1 card cap on gadgetzan is huge overreaction. A cap of 3 or 4 would be more fair.
You're kidding right? Long term the card is fundamentally fucked and cannot stand the way it is. It needs a drastic change in order to give Blizzard the opportunity to make 0-1 cost spells w/o feeling like they'll be exploited.
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why dont you cry about handlock? he has ability to pressure with his early set, at least removal pressure and at the same time can deal up to 28 damage at 1 turn, without any board presence(leeroy+pow+faceless+solufirex2), and he crushes turtle classes like priest or pally with jaraxxus easily). and his draw mechanic is also nice
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On May 19 2014 13:21 mezmery wrote:
why dont you cry about handlock? he has ability to pressure with his early set, at least removal pressure and at the same time can deal up to 28 damage at 1 turn, without any board presence(leeroy+pow+faceless+solufirex2), and he crushes turtle classes like priest or pally with jaraxxus easily). and his draw mechanic is also nice
Because we all get killed by that combo every time we face handlock...
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On May 19 2014 12:53 d0k wrote:
not really serious:
give auctioneer a 50% chance to draw when a spell is played. Would ad some serious salt to the game ^.^
Everytime Auctioneer draws a card he looses a life.
Auctioneer draws card when enemy plays spells.
Auctioneer draws for both. ( depending who plays a spell, similar to cho)
I guess Auctioneer is going to be nerfed in some way for sure.
These are actually really funny ideas. Thanks for sharing.
For those who are suggesting a limit on the number of cards Gadgetzan can draw, sorry but I don't think that would ever happen. The card text would just be too complicated. I think lowering Gadgetzan health to 3 is a really interesting option, maybe with a corresponding buff of his attack to 5. That would keep Gadgetzan viable but make a concealed Gadgetzan attackable.
I disagree with those who say Preparation and Shadowstep are not necessary to a Miracle Rogue deck. Those are some of the most important pieces to keep the card draw engine moving. Yes, Leeroy is annoying but the goal of the deck is to thin out the deck and draw into Leeroy + Shadowstep + Shadowstep + either previous damage or Cold Blood. The Shadowstep is absolutely necessary for the finishing blow and the ONLY reason why 18+ damage is possible from the hand. But the only reason this combo can be achieved is by the thinning out of the deck due to Preparation playing 2 spells for free.
I also disagree that Conceal is the problem. It is certainly tough to deal with, but in a large number of games it is not what allows Miracle Rogue to win. Concealed Gadgetzan only allows the Miracle Rogue to get some damage in before the killing blow. Sometimes the amount of this damage is high and sometimes low, but it is almost never the game ender.
Maybe a milder nerf would be to keep Shadowstep cost at 0 mana but only have it reduce the cost of the minion by 1 mana next time instead of 2. This would only allow triple Leeroy on turn 10, a much more appropriate place for such a burst combo than turn 8. The big problem I can see with this and not being able to Shadowstep and Earthen Ring Farseer or SI:7 as easily for the Tempo Rogue.
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On May 19 2014 13:23 Came Norrection wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 13:21 mezmery wrote:
why dont you cry about handlock? he has ability to pressure with his early set, at least removal pressure and at the same time can deal up to 28 damage at 1 turn, without any board presence(leeroy+pow+faceless+solufirex2), and he crushes turtle classes like priest or pally with jaraxxus easily). and his draw mechanic is also nice Because we all get killed by that combo every time we face handlock...
usually leroy-pow-soulfire is more that enough, yes
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or they could give Leeroy the effect, "permanently lose X attack after each attack" (similar to druid of the claw transformation whereby the card is not reverted by sap/ss) or "after each attack, destroy one filled mana crystal, or leeroy dies" or even "summon a 1/1 whelp with taunt" instead of 2 1/1 tauntless whelps.
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If it wasn't for the strong finishing potential of leeroy or malygos, the 15 or something cards that a miracle rogue draws is somewhat pointless and would just make the rogue lose of fatigue every game.
It's hard to say that Gadgetzan is going to be a problem even in the future because it only gives exceptional value when you load your entire deck full of low-cost spells, and if you load up your deck on low-cost spells it doesn't necessarily win you the game without a highly potent win-condition that doesn't require you to fight for the board.
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On May 19 2014 13:44 Juicyfruit wrote:
If it wasn't for the strong finishing potential of leeroy or malygos, the 15 or something cards that a miracle rogue draws is somewhat pointless and would just make the rogue lose of fatigue every game.
It's hard to say that Gadgetzan is going to be a problem even in the future because it only gives exceptional value when you load your entire deck full of low-cost spells, and if you load up your deck on low-cost spells it doesn't necessarily win you the game without a very potential win-condition.
True. A Leeroy nerf might be needed to bring many burst decks into balance (but that might swing things really far into the control side and make the game boring). I don't think Gadgetzan is the problem either, I think it is the potential to get overly powerful combos with Leeroy. This can be done to some degree in other classes like Warlock, but by far the most common and powerful is turn 8 triple Leeroy in a Rogue deck.
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On May 19 2014 13:33 mezmery wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 13:23 Came Norrection wrote:On May 19 2014 13:21 mezmery wrote:
why dont you cry about handlock? he has ability to pressure with his early set, at least removal pressure and at the same time can deal up to 28 damage at 1 turn, without any board presence(leeroy+pow+faceless+solufirex2), and he crushes turtle classes like priest or pally with jaraxxus easily). and his draw mechanic is also nice Because we all get killed by that combo every time we face handlock... usually leroy-pow-soulfire is more that enough, yes
Usually its the giants that kills me.
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Its telling how bursty the game is becoming with even Tides's warrior deck running Leeroy + double Manipulator.
It's getting to the point where whoever gets their combo first wins. It's almost inevitable that the first 5-10 damage gets chipped in the first few turns anyway. With Warrior armor being an exception.
Nerf Leeroy already or increase the HP cap of all heroes.
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I think Gadgetzan 4/4 -> 4/2 and Leeroy either 5 mana or can't be targeted by your own spells should do the trick.
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On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards.
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The best change I can think of is make leeroy 5 damage. And seriously NovaTheFeared? changing gadgetzan to 4/2 would make him more crappier than cultmaster and he only costs 4 mana.
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On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards.
Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake.
Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos)
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On May 19 2014 14:32 seansye wrote:
The best change I can think of is make leeroy 5 damage. And seriously NovaTheFeared? changing gadgetzan to 4/2 would make him more crappier than cultmaster and he only costs 4 mana.
Nonsense, he'd still be a lot stronger than cultmaster.
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On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos)
Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less.
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Opened 6 top streams and none were playing miracle rogue. Give the meta some time. Miracle rogue is far less op than zoolock.
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On May 19 2014 16:17 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos) Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less.
Preparation and Shadowstep are at best, one offs generally in decks that don't run Gadgetzan.
Ancestral Healing has been experimented with, especially in metas where Black Knight is good. Gaara also recently shared a Shaman list that ran double Totemic Might and Gadgetzan, Lifecoach I believe even played a list that had double Gadgetzan in it. (Shaman).
Combo decks that have draw engines add flavour to deck archetypes that the game really needs. The problem is how ridiculously consistent it is and how difficult it is to get a good matchup against it, not the draw engine. The nature of the deck requires a good draw engine, any nerf to the engine would just cripple the deck as a whole.
Merely increasing the HP cap of heroes or nerfing Leeroy's damage / something would force Miracle Rogues to play a lot tighter, and also solve ridiculous Handlock burst / etc. at once.
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Gadgetzan, low cost spells, and Leeroy.. will fix like 50% of HS balance issues. Next would be Druid, Warrior, and Lock.
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On May 19 2014 16:38 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 16:17 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos) Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less. Preparation and Shadowstep are at best, one offs generally in decks that don't run Gadgetzan. Ancestral Healing has been experimented with, especially in metas where Black Knight is good. Gaara also recently shared a Shaman list that ran double Totemic Might and Gadgetzan, Lifecoach I believe even played a list that had double Gadgetzan in it. (Shaman). Combo decks that have draw engines add flavour to deck archetypes that the game really needs. The problem is how ridiculously consistent it is and how difficult it is to get a good matchup against it, not the draw engine. The nature of the deck requires a good draw engine, any nerf to the engine would just cripple the deck as a whole. Merely increasing the HP cap of heroes or nerfing Leeroy's damage / something would force Miracle Rogues to play a lot tighter, and also solve ridiculous Handlock burst / etc. at once.
If the draw engines aren't changed now, everyone will play pure combo decks in a year.
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On May 19 2014 16:51 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 16:38 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 16:17 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos) Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less. Preparation and Shadowstep are at best, one offs generally in decks that don't run Gadgetzan. Ancestral Healing has been experimented with, especially in metas where Black Knight is good. Gaara also recently shared a Shaman list that ran double Totemic Might and Gadgetzan, Lifecoach I believe even played a list that had double Gadgetzan in it. (Shaman). Combo decks that have draw engines add flavour to deck archetypes that the game really needs. The problem is how ridiculously consistent it is and how difficult it is to get a good matchup against it, not the draw engine. The nature of the deck requires a good draw engine, any nerf to the engine would just cripple the deck as a whole. Merely increasing the HP cap of heroes or nerfing Leeroy's damage / something would force Miracle Rogues to play a lot tighter, and also solve ridiculous Handlock burst / etc. at once. If the draw engines aren't changed now, everyone will play pure combo decks in a year.
Which was why I offered an alternative. Increase the HP of Heroes.
Combo decks should be more difficult to successfully pull off. This gives non-Warrior decks more leeway to stabilise and potentially kill off the combo player or force them to play pieces of their combo to survive.
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On May 19 2014 16:53 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 16:51 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 16:38 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 16:17 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos) Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less. Preparation and Shadowstep are at best, one offs generally in decks that don't run Gadgetzan. Ancestral Healing has been experimented with, especially in metas where Black Knight is good. Gaara also recently shared a Shaman list that ran double Totemic Might and Gadgetzan, Lifecoach I believe even played a list that had double Gadgetzan in it. (Shaman). Combo decks that have draw engines add flavour to deck archetypes that the game really needs. The problem is how ridiculously consistent it is and how difficult it is to get a good matchup against it, not the draw engine. The nature of the deck requires a good draw engine, any nerf to the engine would just cripple the deck as a whole. Merely increasing the HP cap of heroes or nerfing Leeroy's damage / something would force Miracle Rogues to play a lot tighter, and also solve ridiculous Handlock burst / etc. at once. If the draw engines aren't changed now, everyone will play pure combo decks in a year. Which was why I offered an alternative. Increase the HP of Heroes. Combo decks should be more difficult to successfully pull off. This gives non-Warrior decks more leeway to stabilise and potentially kill off the combo player or force them to play pieces of their combo to survive.
Increasing hero health would weaken any kind of aggro deck, and the Hunter hero ability in general far too much.
I'd rather we decrease burst potential (aka nerf leeroy).
When you can deal 30 damage in one turn with nothing on the board, then there's a problem.
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On May 19 2014 16:56 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 16:53 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 16:51 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 16:38 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 16:17 S1eth wrote:On May 19 2014 14:41 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 14:30 Advantageous wrote:On May 19 2014 07:20 Orion77 wrote:
I didn't mind Hunter as much as I mind Solitaire Rogue - people were complaining that it wasn't Unleash The Hounds but rather the draw mechanic that was broken. Regardless, Miracle Rogue appears to completely abuse the draw mechanic as my last game saw my opponent having 2 cards left whilst I was at 15. The nerf should be that the Auctioneer only draws one card per turn - that way the nerf hits all classes as well.
I don't like the fact that they have so many 0 cost spells but maybe that is to compensate for the abilities that the other classes have.
I agree with this change, amongst all the changes proposed... Just seems more reasonable to have GA to only draw 1 card per turn or limited card per turn. However, GA could also overdraw cards if left on the field for too long, so in a way it's not that broken. Nonetheless does seem like a feasible nerf, even though GA isn't a class specific cards. Limiting the card draw to 1 would just make him a crappy Azure Drake. Shamans have lots of cheap spells but Gadgetzan is rarely a problem there. Like someone else pointed out, you can draw all you want, it won't do jack unless you have a potent win condition (Leeroy / Malygos) Rogue 0/1 mana cards also happen to be pretty good on their own, not to mention they have a spell innervate called Preparation. Nobody is going to fill their deck with Ancestral Healing and Totemic Might just in the hopes of cycling them with Gadgetzan Auctioneer. A rogue could use those to deal 2 or 3 damage to a minion (Backstab), or make their next cost 3 less. Preparation and Shadowstep are at best, one offs generally in decks that don't run Gadgetzan. Ancestral Healing has been experimented with, especially in metas where Black Knight is good. Gaara also recently shared a Shaman list that ran double Totemic Might and Gadgetzan, Lifecoach I believe even played a list that had double Gadgetzan in it. (Shaman). Combo decks that have draw engines add flavour to deck archetypes that the game really needs. The problem is how ridiculously consistent it is and how difficult it is to get a good matchup against it, not the draw engine. The nature of the deck requires a good draw engine, any nerf to the engine would just cripple the deck as a whole. Merely increasing the HP cap of heroes or nerfing Leeroy's damage / something would force Miracle Rogues to play a lot tighter, and also solve ridiculous Handlock burst / etc. at once. If the draw engines aren't changed now, everyone will play pure combo decks in a year. Which was why I offered an alternative. Increase the HP of Heroes. Combo decks should be more difficult to successfully pull off. This gives non-Warrior decks more leeway to stabilise and potentially kill off the combo player or force them to play pieces of their combo to survive. Increasing hero health would weaken any kind of aggro deck, and the Hunter hero ability in general far too much. I'd rather we decrease burst potential (aka nerf leeroy). When you can deal 30 damage in one turn with nothing on the board, then there's a problem.
Hmmm point taken.
30 damage in one turn with nothing on board is an exaggeration though. You need to deal SOME damage before hand. (Realistically you will have to Eviscerate stuff on board)
But i still don't think Gadgetzan should be nerfed. It's generally set up on Turn 6. And decks like Handlock and certain Aggro classes have proven capable of keeping it honest, and those aren't really combo decks in the same vein as Gadgetzan. And from the other side, its nice to have Miracle as an option to keep certain decks from being dominant as well. I can agree to nerfing Leeroy's burst, but not the deck type in general.
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On May 19 2014 17:04 S_SienZ wrote:
30 damage in one turn with nothing on board is an exaggeration though. You need to deal SOME damage before hand. (Realistically you will have to Eviscerate stuff on board)
Leeroy Shadow Step Leeroy Shadow Step Leeroy Cold Blood Cold Blood Preparation Eviscerate
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nerfing is sooooooo boring for card games. I would much rather have future cards solve current problems instead, much in the same way acidic swamp and Harrison are there to counter weapons. that way, the meta is more dynamic. if you just go around nerfing the flavor of the week, things will stagnate, and the game will be boring.
heres my 10 sec, shity card design:
a 0/6 neutral minion for 4 that says: "whenever your opponent draws more than one card per turn, put a copy of that card in your hand"
or something like that.
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"Whenever you cast a spell, expend one mana crystal and draw a card."
Still makes the card good value but stops these endless turns where you have card after card.
It also indirectly nerfs the popular turn 5 auctioneer+coin+conceal play.
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On May 19 2014 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:
"Whenever you cast a spell, expend one mana crystal and draw a card."
Still makes the card good value but stops these endless turns where you have card after card.
It also indirectly nerfs the popular turn 5 auctioneer+coin+conceal play.
This will destroy the deck.
In effect its a mana wraith for spells.
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On May 19 2014 18:33 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:
"Whenever you cast a spell, expend one mana crystal and draw a card."
Still makes the card good value but stops these endless turns where you have card after card.
It also indirectly nerfs the popular turn 5 auctioneer+coin+conceal play. This will destroy the deck. In effect its a mana wraith for spells.
Would it? Mana Wraith doesn't let you draw a card when you play a minion..
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On May 19 2014 18:48 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 18:33 S_SienZ wrote:On May 19 2014 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:
"Whenever you cast a spell, expend one mana crystal and draw a card."
Still makes the card good value but stops these endless turns where you have card after card.
It also indirectly nerfs the popular turn 5 auctioneer+coin+conceal play. This will destroy the deck. In effect its a mana wraith for spells. Would it? Mana Wraith doesn't let you draw a card when you play a minion..
I mean you're essentially tacking on Mana Wraith's effect onto the current Gadgetzan.
In fact its worse since it only affects you.
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Well the idea would be you would be coerced into playing things first, before spamming card draw and draining your mana, greatly (potentially) reducing the effect of the auctioneer for miracle rogues without punishing other classes too severely. Just one of many suggestions though 
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On May 19 2014 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:
"Whenever you cast a spell, expend one mana crystal and draw a card."
Still makes the card good value but stops these endless turns where you have card after card.
It also indirectly nerfs the popular turn 5 auctioneer+coin+conceal play.
You could also make him draw the cards for you at the end of the turn.
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On May 19 2014 13:23 Came Norrection wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 13:21 mezmery wrote:
why dont you cry about handlock? he has ability to pressure with his early set, at least removal pressure and at the same time can deal up to 28 damage at 1 turn, without any board presence(leeroy+pow+faceless+solufirex2), and he crushes turtle classes like priest or pally with jaraxxus easily). and his draw mechanic is also nice Because we all get killed by that combo every time we face handlock...
So the basis of your complaint is is that Miracle Rogue's primary (and almost only) win condition (the Leeroy Combo) is what you die to every time you face Miracle Rogue? Er.....
Tons of suggestions here would flat out kill the deck, not "fix" it as some people feel it needs. Miracle Rogue is essentially entirely reliant on the Leeroy combo win condition (barring a few edge cases of epic Van Cleef combos that survives long enough to attack with). If you screw around too heavily with that combo or the ability to draw into that combo the deck isn't going to be viable anymore.
Personally I just feel this is all kinda reactionary. Miracle didn't "suddenly" become super strong; its been around for a while. Whether it coming to the fore as a result of the downfall of Hunter is a passing trend or not remains to be seen; and going for the throat of another thing right after the UTH nerf seems rather impatient.
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Guys, Gadgetzan Auctioneer is not the problem.
Again, Leeroy is the issue here,not the low cost spells and card draw.If there is any Rogue card that needs change that would be Conceal.They could change it so it doesn't work with Gadgetzan Auctioneer or minions with abilities(like Questing Adventurer).
I guess that would be a slight nerf to Gadgetzan Auctioneer because they can't keep him alive easily.
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Hmm. Make the Auctioneer a 4/3?
I don't really think miracle rogue is overpowered at all. It is strong, yes and a OTK can happen but the deck is not invincible. Does it need a nerf? Not sure. If it gets nerfed people will move on to whine about warlock or warrior next. Generally I think buffing weaker cards would be a better way to deal with balance than nerfing the 'overpowered' ones.
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Defender of Argus and similiar cards already shit on Miracle Rogue. Leeroy deals 0 damage if the opponent has a taunt that has 2 attack.
I still do consider Miracle Rogue perhaps too strong. You could nerf Preparation to 2 mana but that would only affect Fan of Knives, really. Another thing that in my opinion might be good would be to change the effect of Gadgetzan to "draw a card when you cast a spell, but that card costs 1 more mana for this turn only". That way you could still empty your hand to draw a billion cards but couldn't keep drawing them endlessly with the cards you draw with it.
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On May 19 2014 19:35 DifuntO wrote:
Guys, Gadgetzan Auctioneer is not the problem.
Again, Leeroy is the issue here,not the low cost spells and card draw.If there is any Rogue card that needs change that would be Conceal.They could change it so it doesn't work with Gadgetzan Auctioneer or minions with abilities(like Questing Adventurer).
I guess that would be a slight nerf to Gadgetzan Auctioneer because they can't keep him alive easily.
There can be multiple issues.
Just like with Hunter. UtH was an issue, yes, and has been fixed.
But Starving Buzzard is still and will always be an issue that also needs fixing.
Both Leeroy and Gadgetzan auctioneer are issues, too.
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On May 19 2014 20:25 Shikyo wrote:
Defender of Argus and similiar cards already shit on Miracle Rogue. Leeroy deals 0 damage if the opponent has a taunt that has 2 attack.
I still do consider Miracle Rogue perhaps too strong. You could nerf Preparation to 2 mana but that would only affect Fan of Knives, really. Another thing that in my opinion might be good would be to change the effect of Gadgetzan to "draw a card when you cast a spell, but that card costs 1 more mana for this turn only". That way you could still empty your hand to draw a billion cards but couldn't keep drawing them endlessly with the cards you draw with it.
have a large taunt? Sap. Have a smaller taunt (<= 4-5 hp)? Eviscerate. Have multiple smaller taunts? Blade Flurry on a poisoned weapon. They all cost 2 mana, and with Preparation you can even use one or two of them in the same turn as the LEEEEROOOOOY JEEEEENKIIIIIIINS LEEEEROOOOOY JEEEEENKIIIIIIINS LEEEEROOOOOY JEEEEENKIIIIIIINS
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What if they introduced a neutral minion that is basically like a Laughing Sister? Taunt that up and Miracle Rogue would struggle to deal with it outside of a Poisoned Assassin's Blade.
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nerf leeroy boring card let the malygos rogue take the place
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Miracle rogue is fine, and far less frustrating to play aganist than hunters.
Yes, they are great with perfect draws, but which deck isnt?
If anything, nerf the auctioneer to 3 or 2 health, forcing the rogue to shaddowstep him rather than leeroy, I have seen it done!
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On May 19 2014 10:23 ArchmageKruzer wrote:
on a side note, would nozdormu be a viable option against the miracle rogues? or perhaps we could buff nozdormu? idk.
maybe it's a good option, but nozdormu has to be way buffed to worth a slot even against miracle rogues
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On May 19 2014 10:34 S1eth wrote:
Cards lke Gadgetzan Auctioneer and Starving Buzzard are bad for the game in the long run and need to be changed.
With Gadgetzan Auctioneer in the game, Blizzard cannot add more 0 or 1 mana spells to the game. If you leave him be, every class will sooner of later devolve into a Miracle combo deck that draws their whole deck in1 turn.
Same goes for Starving Buzzard, which makes it impossible for Blizzard to add good low mana cost beasts to the game.
Buzzard is by no means OP, it was in combination with unleash, since unleash is pretty garbage now it isn't nearly as strong.
Thats a two card combo, can't be compared to Gadgetzan.
Miracle was always more 'OP' than hunter, it even destroyed the midrange one, yet hunter got nerfed. Madness.
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I'm so glad TL doesn't make the final balance decisions.
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On May 19 2014 22:19 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 10:34 S1eth wrote:
Cards lke Gadgetzan Auctioneer and Starving Buzzard are bad for the game in the long run and need to be changed.
With Gadgetzan Auctioneer in the game, Blizzard cannot add more 0 or 1 mana spells to the game. If you leave him be, every class will sooner of later devolve into a Miracle combo deck that draws their whole deck in1 turn.
Same goes for Starving Buzzard, which makes it impossible for Blizzard to add good low mana cost beasts to the game.
Buzzard is by no means OP, it was in combination with unleash, since unleash is pretty garbage now it isn't nearly as strong. Thats a two card combo, can't be compared to Gadgetzan. Miracle was always more 'OP' than hunter, it even destroyed the midrange one, yet hunter got nerfed. Madness.
You say that now, but in 2 years, you'll come crying OP at the new buzzard combo.
Buzzard made the old UtH broken, it made the new UtH broken, and it will make many future card combinations broken.
The UtH nerf was not supposed to "nerf Hunter", it's a fix to a broken card. Let's say Paladin is the weakest class right now. It would still be a good idea to fix a broken Paladin card even if that "nerfed" Paladin even more. People are just too short sighted.
Who cares if Hunter is overreliant on their one broken card combination at the moment and that one has been nerfed? There will be many more Hunter cards in the future.
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I haven't played much this season so I can't say I know much about miracle rogue, but outside of nerfing gadgetzan (which seems reasonable), a nerf to Blade Flurry would be a big blow to miracle rogue. For example, if it only damaged minions miracle would have more difficulty coming up with the damage for kills out of nowhere.
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I don't play miracle rogue, but I think the deck is mostly fine. The "miracle" idea is fun, I'm never mad when my opponent draws 10 cards in a turn and kills me next turn. It does take skills to play the deck right.
The part I don't like is the otk potential(leeroy issue). A fireball that can be buffed(cold blood) and reused(shadowstep) is very difficult to play against.
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On May 20 2014 00:22 KnowNothing wrote:
I haven't played much this season so I can't say I know much about miracle rogue, but outside of nerfing gadgetzan (which seems reasonable), a nerf to Blade Flurry would be a big blow to miracle rogue. For example, if it only damaged minions miracle would have more difficulty coming up with the damage for kills out of nowhere.
Rogues have pretty shitty board clear though. Unlike eg. Paladin, Druid, and Priest classes that have turn 4/5 clears Rogues have nothing but blade flurry and it's a two card combo that can almost never be kept in the opening hand. It's a pretty weak card as is so if you remove the damage to face it needs buffs elsewhere.
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My suggestion would be to cap Shadowstep at 1 per turn.
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On May 20 2014 01:54 Rhayader wrote:
My suggestion would be to cap Shadowstep at 1 per turn.
That's just so unintuitive and bleh from a game design standpoint. Nerfing Leeroy to 5 mana would have the same effect and also solve the warlock leeroy combo problem in a much more intuitive way.
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Maybe you're right, was very busy playing high stakes poker while i wrote that, didn't put much thought into it. While we're at it, u seem like a very good and knowledgeable player. If i pay you 50 bucks will u get me to legend rank?
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Lol. I really only play arena but I'd be pleased to part you from your $50.
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I think it's conceal that's the problem in miracle rouge.The card essentially means that you can ignore the general rule of 'if you want a minion to survive you need board control'. when you play against miracle rouge and you can deal with the gadgetzan after one turn you should usually have enough time to put pressure on the rouge and win before they can dig to their combo.
It's when they can get a full turn worth of spells with the gadgetzan that you're really in trouble, and that only ever happens with conceal.
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I agree that something needs fixing. It doesn't matter what deck you run vs miracle rogue. If you aren't able to kill the rogue in a few turns and she gets her cards, you die regardless of how well you played since she only needs 1 or 2 turns to dish out more than 30 hp worth of damage with a combo.
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Whatever happens, I just hope that miracle is still viable. It's incredibly unique and my favorite constructed deck to play by far.
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I feel like if they just make Gadgetzan a 9 mana 8/8 it will make the matchup more fair. Also it will alleviate futuristic design problems that the current Gadgetzan presents. If you keep Gadgetzan the way it is now, adding new cheap efficient spells makes non-Gadgetzan builds obsolete.
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If any card needs a tweak, it's Auctioneer - not Leeroy or the rogue class cards, which are fine. I kind of like the idea of changing the mana cost and body of Auctioneer slightly. Maybe to a 6 mana 5/4 or 4/5, or just lowering his health to 3. Either way would keep the card playable and miracle rogue viable, but would help a ton. Very curious to see if Blizz makes any changes effecting miracle rogue in the next patch or two.
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I really like the shadowstep nerf. It really annoys me when Leeroy is put out 3 times in one turn, but it annoys me more knowing that the spell costs nothing. I somewhat agree with preparation costing 1. Altogether this is a great idea, but it may somewhat kill rogue, at least at the legend level.
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nozdormo - You and Your opponent can now play at most 2 cards per turn. Fixed, still active on the turn he dies, so if he gets assasinated, your opponent can play one card
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On May 23 2014 14:04 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Whatever happens, I just hope that miracle is still viable. It's incredibly unique and my favorite constructed deck to play by far.
Agreed. I don't want to see miracle rogue nerfed to smithereens. It is such a different way to play than anything else. But it would be nice to see it interact with the other player a bit more and give the other person a chance to outplay. As it is now, miracle rogue vs nearly any other matchup is entirely dependent on how the miracle rogue draws regardless of what the other player draws. Any player who does not play miracle rogue in a bo3 or bo5 is at a disadvantage.
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On May 23 2014 23:46 StS Roflcopter wrote:
I really like the shadowstep nerf. It really annoys me when Leeroy is put out 3 times in one turn, but it annoys me more knowing that the spell costs nothing. I somewhat agree with preparation costing 1. Altogether this is a great idea, but it may somewhat kill rogue, at least at the legend level.
Yes, it is a bit much. The whole reason this combo is possible on turn 8 though is because of the strength of the rest of the miracle rogue card draw engine and not the combo itself.
I really am liking the sound of tinkering with the stats of Gadgetzan (and not his ability). Would a 6 mana 6/3 be too crazy?
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Can they just make Gadgetzan give you your cards at the end of the turn instead of during to prevent the retarded 6+ card chains?
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Why not just change Gadgetzan to "Whenever you play a spell that costs at least 1 mana, draw a card".
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On May 26 2014 07:33 killa_robot wrote:
Why not just change Gadgetzan to "Whenever you play a spell that costs at least 1 mana, draw a card".
As much as suggestions like those are a good idea, I think it will be a while before Blizzard caves and incorporates lengthy ability explanations like that. At the moment they are keeping the game as simple as possible (and, to be honest, I think that is the better decision).
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make it so that you draw a card from gadgetzan whenever you summon a minion rather than when you cast a spell.
Then you'll all see your favorites zoolocks come back in full force...
Seriously nobody was whining about miracle rogues just a few weeks back. The deck is way less retarded than zoo and face hunter since you have to be able to manage your removals and when you play your minions instead of just getting all in with whatever card you top deck each turn like zoo does without second thoughts.
Even if they are a pain I prefer this rogue era if it must be compared to last month zoo/hunter fest
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How about:
SHADOWSTEP: return a minion to your hand: it costs 2 less, it loses 1 health.
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Nerfing Leeroy also nerfs Windfury / Rockbiter / Flametongue Totem combos. That's not cool
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I expect 1 or 2 of the zero-cost rogue spells to become slightly more expensive. Keep in mind, even then miracle rogue would still work, just not with as high win percentage as now. I don't think auctioneer has to be nerfed and miracle style decks to be destroyed. I believe they are fun part of the game and should stay. Only their success rate has to be controlled. But if they sometimes draw 10 cards in one turn - good, that's awesome and should be cheered.
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I was just playing against a miracle rogue normally I would view it as a waste to blow 2 whirlwind with an azure drake to remove a single card but not when its a stealthed Gadgetzan. as soon as I took out that card I could see my opponents gameplan implode from that point on.
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If Leeroy got nerfed to being a 5/2 I think it would be a substantial enough decrease in power to balance leeroy out across the board, not just in miracle. Leeroy just supports so many decks that it would curve the aggression of hearthstone as a whole.
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Russian Federation0 Posts
In most of the games I've played and watched, Leeroy not so much a problem. Gadetzan has to be nerfed. Here is a thought, keep him as a 4/4 and same cost. Place him on the board, draw 3 cards instantly, then he vanishes permanently. (2 in deck equals 6 card draw) and minion free. I think this would balance out the abusive Rogue use of spells. This card draws better than Pat Nagle, and he became 50%. I still like to use him. It is quite fun to risk
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Gadetzan is the issue with Miracle Rogue. The problem is how you change it. You could lower its attribute value to a 3/3 or something like that so that it becomes in range of a bunch of removals like Shadow Word Pain, and Frostbolt, but the issue is the huge advantage card potential of the card-draw on the same turn as Gadetzan is played. This also help with the Gadetzan/Conceal combo which keeps him alive one turn longer, and often time, that's all the Miracle Rogue needs.
Leeroy is the issue for most rush decks. My issue with it is that it's an easy card to use, and the backdrop doesn't really matter if it's only used to kill the opponent outright.
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How about leeroy jenkins having 5 attack instead of 6 attack? Would that work?
Or conceal being 2 mana? I could see that work aswell. That's a much smaller nerf though, since it gets combod with preparation a lot.
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This thread makes me facepalm... Jesus christ some of these suggestions are just so terrible...
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Trump's suggestion (though he didn't say miracle rogue necessarily needed a nerf) was to remove Gadgetzan entirely and replace it with a legendary card with the same stats and relevant lore, so you only have one in your deck.
I like having miracle rogue running around in the meta, but it is a bit frustrating and non-interactive for the opponent.
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On May 27 2014 09:26 The_Symbiont wrote:
Trump's suggestion (though he didn't say miracle rogue necessarily needed a nerf) was to remove Gadgetzan entirely and replace it with a legendary card with the same stats and relevant lore, so you only have one in your deck.
I like having miracle rogue running around in the meta, but it is a bit frustrating and non-interactive for the opponent.
I don't like removing cards from the game. The pool is already relatively limited (Naxx will increase it a bit but still..) so I hope they don't go that route.
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I think one of the issues is that there's too many cheap spells in the game, especially for rogue. What if the text was something like;
"When you cast a spell that costs 2 or more mana, draw a card."
That would stop you being able to cycle so effectively with coin, conceal, prep etc, while still leaving gadgetzan open for other classes. Only thing is it kinda hurts Shaman with RB and LB spells :\
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On May 27 2014 09:26 The_Symbiont wrote:
Trump's suggestion (though he didn't say miracle rogue necessarily needed a nerf) was to remove Gadgetzan entirely and replace it with a legendary card with the same stats and relevant lore, so you only have one in your deck.
I like having miracle rogue running around in the meta, but it is a bit frustrating and non-interactive for the opponent.
Make it full refund 1600 dust and I'll back this change fully
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Change Gadgetzan so it reads " Draw a Card at the end of your turn for each spell you cast"
So it's still the same amount of draws but you can no longer draw into something to use it at the same turn.
I think this change is fair because Gadgetzan can still draw you a lot of card but with a delay
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Change Gadgetzan so you lose 10 seconds of your turn every time you draw a card? If Miracle Rogue doesn't have enough time to play its whole turn, it's fixed!
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"When you cast a spell, exchange one card in your deck for one card in your hand."
A way to get rid of those awkward dead cards and maybe get something useful! /shrug
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i think like buzzard, a limit on number of card draws per turn is all that required, 1 or 2 max.
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On May 27 2014 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
This thread makes me facepalm... Jesus christ some of these suggestions are just so terrible...
How about providing a positive contribution...like a suggestion of your own?
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if you put a limit of one or two on gadgetzan, why wouldnt you just play azure drake
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Make shadowstep cost 1. Never add any 0 mana cost cards to the game ever again.
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On May 28 2014 02:30 Sherlock117 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
This thread makes me facepalm... Jesus christ some of these suggestions are just so terrible... How about providing a positive contribution...like a suggestion of your own?
Miracle rogue has already been losing steam over the past month without any artificial measures like the ones that have been vomited all over this thread. There isn't really a whole lot of real suggestions to say besides "learn how to play against it like other high level players have".
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On May 28 2014 02:30 Sherlock117 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
This thread makes me facepalm... Jesus christ some of these suggestions are just so terrible... How about providing a positive contribution...like a suggestion of your own?
You don't need to know what the right answer is to know that a particular answer is flawed.
He's right, some of these ideas would outright kill the archetype.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On May 28 2014 04:24 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 02:30 Sherlock117 wrote:On May 27 2014 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
This thread makes me facepalm... Jesus christ some of these suggestions are just so terrible... How about providing a positive contribution...like a suggestion of your own? You don't need to know what the right answer is to know that a particular answer is flawed. He's right, some of these ideas would outright kill the archetype.
I don't think that would be a bad thing.
I can play solitaire anytime I want on my computer
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On May 28 2014 04:26 KelsierSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 04:24 S_SienZ wrote:On May 28 2014 02:30 Sherlock117 wrote:On May 27 2014 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
This thread makes me facepalm... Jesus christ some of these suggestions are just so terrible... How about providing a positive contribution...like a suggestion of your own? You don't need to know what the right answer is to know that a particular answer is flawed. He's right, some of these ideas would outright kill the archetype. I don't think that would be a bad thing. I can play solitaire anytime I want on my computer
I can always play Vanilla YGO too if all I wanted was to bump minions into each other.
It's hardly as OP as many exaggerate it to be. Frustrating to play against? Maybe, but so are quite a few decks out there. Archetype variety is crucial to the variety of a TCG. At most, Miracle needs a subtle nerf.
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If you give every class 10 good secrets to play, Miracle Rogue will never be able to play their turn within 90 seconds.
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The biggest problem I have with threads like this is that it basically purely focuses on speculating about things that are beyond your own control, which is the easiest way to complain about things. Instead of a big QQ fest on what should change about Miracle Rogue, we should instead be having bigger discussions about how to beat the archetype. In some ways I think people already have been constructing decks with this in mind, at least intuitively or accidentally. Handlocks have been making their decks faster with the exclusion of Jaraxxus and Alexstraza, the popular Druid archetype these days is basically Ramp Druid that floods the board with taunts that is overwhelming to deal with for aggro decks, and I've been seeing Hunters again recently that are really hard to deal with for both Miracle Rogue and Shamans (that have been seeing a huge resurgence the past month).
It might be true that Miracle Rogue needs a slight touch-up, but from seeing how players have been shifting over the past month since the Hunter nerf, I'm honestly leaning more to thinking that Miracle Rogue doesn't actually need any nerfs.
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Some people have definitely figured out some stuff that works...alright... against miracle but I still expect to see 12/16 spots minimum taken up with miracle rogues this season. On one hand, this doesn't bother me so much because it is probably the highest skill cap deck to pilot. On the other, it does create pretty one sided "I can't do anything" games.
I think it's unlikely we'll see any direct nerf to miracle. Naxx will shake things up a lot and it will be a while before any deck comes out as king.
One other random suggestion to fix miracle: Make blade flurry minions only. Reducing incidental damage to make the rogue do some work to get into lethal range sounds reasonable to me. This would also cap their burst in some situations.
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".....it is probably the highest skill cap deck to pilot."
I believe this is plain wrong! I'm not saying playing miracle is easier then face warrior-hunter but.. Come on it isn't rocket science! When playing with Druid-pala-both handlocks etc. you have to get board control, play around board clears and you should always consider possible burst damage to your face.
Miracle Playstyle
Turn 1-5 get rid of enemy minions (Well.. Rogue is great at it. Backstab, SI:7, Poison etc....)
Turn 5-10 Draw as much as your deck to get your extremely good burst.
Rogues don't pay attention to enemy board clears, They don't pay attention to enemy burst (Generally they much much faster cycle their deck). This isn't that hard.
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Are you seriously trying to say that Druid takes more decision making than Miracle Rogue?
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I am seriously saying all classes which try to establish a board are harder than miracle rogue.
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By that logic zoolock would be the most vigorously hard deck to play. Despite all your nonsense, Miracle Rogue is concerned with board control - if they didn't they wouldn't play cards like sap, SI7 agent, and blade flurry. A certain kind of board control is necessary to finish the game because there has to be a clear path to the enemy champion with Leeroy - why do you think Miracle Rogue was weak during the Hunter era? It wasn't just because flare reveals concealed units - it was moreso due to traps. Why do you think handlock is considered to have an advantageous matchup against Miracle Rogue, and why do you think conservative taunt heavy Druid decks do well against Miracle Rogue? Miracle Rogue doesn't have to establish board control in the same way that more conventional decks do, but it still has to maintain control over the board if it wants to win or else it won't be able to survive until it establishes its win conditions. If you seriously think Druid, which is probably the most straightforward class with the most uncomplicated decision making is harder to play than Miracle Rogue then you just have no idea how Miracle Rogue actually plays and probably have never even played the deck before. Just watching Kolento play Miracle for a couple minutes will make it crystal clear that he always makes sure he has control over the board. He is always interacting with his opponent's board so that he doesn't lose tempo - it's not "solitaire" in any real sense. If Miracle literally did not care at all for establishing the board then you wouldn't see players put down SI7 or farseer when they won't make use of their abilities for the pure purpose of putting down a 3/3 on the board.
Druid is my second most played class and is probably my favourite class overall because of how solid and versatile it is, but I'm not so deluded to think that any Druid archetype is "difficult" to play. The hardest it gets to actually playing is Token, and it's not like the thought process behind the overall strategy of Druid decks is all that difficult either.
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just try playing miracle against aggro and then you will facepalm.
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On May 28 2014 08:31 Aceace wrote:
I am seriously saying all classes which try to establish a board are harder than miracle rogue.
No.
Druid quite literally plays itself from the hand.
The only deck that you listed that I can agree to being harder than Miracle would be Handlock.
In case you haven't noticed, not contesting for board = more worrying about dying early game. Rogue has some good clears, but if you don't draw 1 of 4 (Backstab and SI) against a fast deck you are quite literally fucked by Turn 5.
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On May 28 2014 09:23 koreasilver wrote:
By that logic zoolock would be the most vigorously hard deck to play. Despite all your nonsense, Miracle Rogue is concerned with board control - if they didn't they wouldn't play cards like sap, SI7 agent, and blade flurry. A certain kind of board control is necessary to finish the game because there has to be a clear path to the enemy champion with 7Leeroy - why do you think Miracle Rogue was weak during the Hunter era? It wasn't just because flare reveals concealed units - it was moreso due to traps. Why do you think handlock is considered to have an advantageous matchup against Miracle Rogue, and why do you think conservative taunt heavy Druid decks do well against Miracle Rogue? Miracle Rogue doesn't have to establish board control in the same way that more conventional decks do, but it still has to maintain control over the board if it wants to win or else it won't be able to survive until it establishes its win conditions. If you seriously think Druid, which is probably the most straightforward class with the most uncomplicated decision making is harder to play than Miracle Rogue then you just have no idea how Miracle Rogue actually plays and probably have never even played the deck before. Just watching Kolento play Miracle for a couple minutes will make it crystal clear that he always makes sure he has control over the board. He is always interacting with his opponent's board so that he doesn't lose tempo - it's not "solitaire" in any real sense. If Miracle literally did not care at all for establishing the board then you wouldn't see players put down SI7 or farseer when they won't make use of their abilities for the pure purpose of putting down a 3/3 on the board.
Druid is my second most played class and is probably my favourite class overall because of how solid and versatile it is, but I'm not so deluded to think that any Druid archetype is "difficult" to play. The hardest it gets to actually playing is Token, and it's not like the thought process behind the overall strategy of Druid decks is all that difficult either.
First of all im playing Malygos miracle mainly and Paladin for fun atm. Also my most played class is druid. To be honest I don't have any experience with warlock. I just don't like it.
As you say "miracle rogue is concerned with board control". In a different perspective of course. I think you're missing one critical point. Rogues aren't concerned with board control. Rogues main concern is both heroes HP and getting rid of enemy minions. Killing enemy minions delay the game to reach necessary cards. Dealing damage to enemy hero with your minions, lower the amount of burst damage. This is not "board control" This is different. And I don't believe this is harder than conventional board control. Because conventional board control includes board clears, card efficiency and tempo advantage. When im playing miracle I consider enemy removal. But not like playing with druid or paladin. Because they will use some mana to remove my minion and they put a smaller minion on board with leftover mana. This will help delay the game.
Please compare Druid vs priest or Control paladin vs Handlock matchup against a Miracle rogue matchup. I'm not saying miracle is easier than "Hit to the Face" decks. I'm just saying Miracle Rogue isn't that hard to play. I'm just saying its way easier than people say.
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On May 28 2014 04:34 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 04:26 KelsierSC wrote:On May 28 2014 04:24 S_SienZ wrote:On May 28 2014 02:30 Sherlock117 wrote:On May 27 2014 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
This thread makes me facepalm... Jesus christ some of these suggestions are just so terrible... How about providing a positive contribution...like a suggestion of your own? You don't need to know what the right answer is to know that a particular answer is flawed. He's right, some of these ideas would outright kill the archetype. I don't think that would be a bad thing. I can play solitaire anytime I want on my computer I can always play Vanilla YGO too if all I wanted was to bump minions into each other. It's hardly as OP as many exaggerate it to be. Frustrating to play against? Maybe, but so are quite a few decks out there. Archetype variety is crucial to the variety of a TCG. At most, Miracle needs a subtle nerf.
A subtle nerf was exactly what I was suggesting. I am not asking to wipe Miracle Rogue out of the game. It's just annoying that right now top level bo3/bo5 matches are basically won by whose Miracle Rogue deck wins more games.
There may be bad suggestions in this thread, but at least they are attempts to find a solution. A post saying that all the suggestions in this thread are trash is not necessary and just ruins the community. I'd prefer to see constructive posts.
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On May 28 2014 11:53 Sherlock117 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 04:34 S_SienZ wrote:On May 28 2014 04:26 KelsierSC wrote:On May 28 2014 04:24 S_SienZ wrote:On May 28 2014 02:30 Sherlock117 wrote:On May 27 2014 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
This thread makes me facepalm... Jesus christ some of these suggestions are just so terrible... How about providing a positive contribution...like a suggestion of your own? You don't need to know what the right answer is to know that a particular answer is flawed. He's right, some of these ideas would outright kill the archetype. I don't think that would be a bad thing. I can play solitaire anytime I want on my computer I can always play Vanilla YGO too if all I wanted was to bump minions into each other. It's hardly as OP as many exaggerate it to be. Frustrating to play against? Maybe, but so are quite a few decks out there. Archetype variety is crucial to the variety of a TCG. At most, Miracle needs a subtle nerf. A subtle nerf was exactly what I was suggesting. I am not asking to wipe Miracle Rogue out of the game. It's just annoying that right now top level bo3/bo5 matches are basically won by whose Miracle Rogue deck wins more games. There may be bad suggestions in this thread, but at least they are attempts to find a solution. A post saying that all the suggestions in this thread are trash is not necessary and just ruins the community. I'd prefer to see constructive posts.
Your post which I responded to was saying that the archetype being dead would not be a bad thing, hardly subtle.
Yes, it's necessary. A bad solution is worse than continuing to ponder for a better one. You're operating under the assumption that doing something is always better than nothing, which is not true.
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On May 19 2014 21:15 Fi0na wrote:
LEEEEROOOOOY JEEEEENKIIIIIIINS LEEEEROOOOOY JEEEEENKIIIIIIINS LEEEEROOOOOY JEEEEENKIIIIIIINS
Completely off topic: This should now be compulsory to write at the top of any thread discussing Miracle Rogue.
I can't stop laughing. X-D
On May 23 2014 23:54 weikor wrote:
nozdormo - You and Your opponent can now play at most 2 cards per turn. Fixed, still active on the turn he dies, so if he gets assasinated, your opponent can play one card
Wording should probably be simpler like "Only two cards can be played this turn." to fit in with the way Hearthstone words things and to make the effect "sticky" beyond Nozdormu dying. Your previous text sort of implied it was tied to the card being on the board.
Don't necessarily agree with it with respect to Miracle Rogue and not sure if it'd "fix" Nozdormu; but its a fascinating idea.
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On May 28 2014 09:23 koreasilver wrote:
blah blah blah ....
I'm not saying miracle is easier than "Hit to the Face" decks. I'm just saying Miracle Rogue isn't that hard to play. I'm just
saying its way easier than people say.
Frankly, the problem with all of this is that -- the game itself isn't "that hard to play".
The game is simple. It is intentionally simple. Relative to other decks, though, Miracle is a nice challenge if at all for no other reason that it is a very different play style and mindset.
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On May 28 2014 14:19 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 11:53 Sherlock117 wrote:On May 28 2014 04:34 S_SienZ wrote:On May 28 2014 04:26 KelsierSC wrote:On May 28 2014 04:24 S_SienZ wrote:On May 28 2014 02:30 Sherlock117 wrote:On May 27 2014 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
This thread makes me facepalm... Jesus christ some of these suggestions are just so terrible... How about providing a positive contribution...like a suggestion of your own? You don't need to know what the right answer is to know that a particular answer is flawed. He's right, some of these ideas would outright kill the archetype. I don't think that would be a bad thing. I can play solitaire anytime I want on my computer I can always play Vanilla YGO too if all I wanted was to bump minions into each other. It's hardly as OP as many exaggerate it to be. Frustrating to play against? Maybe, but so are quite a few decks out there. Archetype variety is crucial to the variety of a TCG. At most, Miracle needs a subtle nerf. A subtle nerf was exactly what I was suggesting. I am not asking to wipe Miracle Rogue out of the game. It's just annoying that right now top level bo3/bo5 matches are basically won by whose Miracle Rogue deck wins more games. There may be bad suggestions in this thread, but at least they are attempts to find a solution. A post saying that all the suggestions in this thread are trash is not necessary and just ruins the community. I'd prefer to see constructive posts. Your post which I responded to was saying that the archetype being dead would not be a bad thing, hardly subtle. Yes, it's necessary. A bad solution is worse than continuing to ponder for a better one. You're operating under the assumption that doing something is always better than nothing, which is not true.
Nope. Wasn't my post. I don't want the deck archetype dead. I've been fairly clear about that the entire thread (though I don't expect anyone to read the entire thing).
I agree in some cases doing nothing is better than doing something. However, this is not one of those cases. There are things that can be done that will improve the game. For example, releasing a new set of cards (i.e. Curse of Naxrammus) is doing something and is probably going to be better than doing nothing.
I guess we'll just have to wait until those new cards to come out until Miracle Rogue has a competitive (not gimicky) hard counter. Oh well.
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This miracle rogue deck has me just about quitting the game until something is done. It's just not fun to play against at all. Unless they get the worst cards in the universe, or they just plain suck and should be 10 ranks lower because of the deck, you just can't really win.
I figured I'd go with a taunt heavy style to try and counter the burst damage. He took out 3 taunts all 4/5 or greater while losing no minions and taking 4 total damage. I'm around 70% vs everybody else and 5% vs this, otherwise I'd likely go from rank 3 to a decent bit higher.
This deck is garbage and makes me extremely annoyed and not enjoy the game. After several more games vs this garbage I think I'll hang it up until they do something.
EDIT: In the spirit of the thread (I came here originally looking for ways to play vs this silliness) I'll go with an idea as well. I like the idea of making Leeroy not able to get spells cast on it. That's already in the game for some cards. This way the rogue can't do 87 burst damage on turn 8. This doesn't change leroy too much (actually might buff it vs say a mage), but stops the thing that makes this miracle rogue deck just stupid.
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Kinda over the miracle rogue bullshit, I really think they could stand to change gadgetzan to whenever you cast a spell that costs 2 or more, but I know that would kill miracle rogue. Without totally killing it they can start by increasing the cost of conceal to 2 or 3.
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Didn't read the whole thread so sorry in advance if it has been said before.
Trump suggested on stream that Gadgetzan should be replaced by a legendary with excactly the same stats and effect. This way you can only have one in your miracle deck and it doesn't really affect any other decks since no one runs 2 gadgetzans anyways
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It is way more intersting to play against miracle than against Control Warrior or Handlock. It actually feels like playing a completely different game. By the way, it is not too hard to counter that "op combo" you know.... (*cough Defender of Argus cough*) So maybe just adjust to the meta instead of writing QQ posts about crushing one of the rarely seen actually interesting deck types.
P.S. I do not play Miracle.
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Didn't read every post not sure if it was proposed. But Trump recently suggested making Auctioneer a legendary, i.e. can only have max 1 per deck. How's that for a nerf?
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what about making Leeroy untargetable by spells a-la Faerie Dragon? No Shadowsteps, no PO's, no Cold Bloods
seems legit, no?
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On May 29 2014 13:03 Iron_ wrote:
I figured I'd go with a taunt heavy style to try and counter the burst damage. He took out 3 taunts all 4/5 or greater while losing no minions and taking 4 total damage. I'm around 70% vs everybody else and 5% vs this, otherwise I'd likely go from rank 3 to a decent bit higher.
Until high legend you face way more warlocks than Rogues (31% vs 15% for my experience on more than 400 games played between rank 5 and rank 1 on EU), you even face more druids (18%) than rogues...
Miracle Rogue is not broken for the ladder like Hunter used to be (completely killing Shaman along the way).
The biggest problem with Rogue is how it's killing tournament play.
With the stats you are announcing if on US server you find the same amount of rogues as on EU you should of hit legend in less than 125 games.
And you have to be pretty bad to lose 95% of the time vs Miracle with a deck you have tailored to beat it... >.<
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On May 30 2014 18:30 AceLunaris wrote:
what about making Leeroy untargetable by spells a-la Faerie Dragon? No Shadowsteps, no PO's, no Cold Bloods
seems legit, no?
not a bad idea, but it also hurt some other decks.
i think this is exactly where root cause analysis needs to be done, is it leeroy, is it gadgetzan or something else?
for me, i'd change gadgetzan to either draw 2 cards max per turn, or only draw cards for spells over 2 mana. preparation shiv is just disgusting, 3 cards for 0 mana? sure
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What about making Leeroy summon two Whelps with taunt? That would at least require a fan of knifes or a blade flurry for the Shadowstep combo to be effective (or some decent board presence).
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On May 31 2014 03:14 Release wrote:
What about making Leeroy summon two Whelps with taunt? That would at least require a fan of knifes or a blade flurry for the Shadowstep combo to be effective (or some decent board presence).
At that point you might as well suggest that Leeroy be removed from the game...
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On May 31 2014 03:14 Release wrote:
What about making Leeroy summon two Whelps with taunt? That would at least require a fan of knifes or a blade flurry for the Shadowstep combo to be effective (or some decent board presence).
a fan of knifes
THREE Fan of Knives
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I hate how everyone wants something nerfed the minute it becomes strong or even the top deck for a little while. Miracle rogue is one of the most unique decks in the game, is hard(er) to play than most other decks, and has hard counters that exist. There are some games where it is literally impossible for this deck to win, because it doesn't hit the right card draw mechanics.
If something needs to be nerfed, though, it is definitely leeroy. This card is showing up in nearly every class at this point, even in decks that it really doesn't make much sense to play him. I've seen him in rogue, druid, warlock, warrior, hunter, paladin, shaman and even mage decks. That to me is the sign of a possible problem card.
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I strongly disagree that Gadgetzan needs to be nerfed. Gadgetzan is one of the few cards in the game that produces interesting interactions between cards. The correct way to nerf the effectiveness of miracle rogue is to provide equally interesting interactions for the rest of the field. The problem is that the card pool is too limited, and most of the effects too simple to see anything near the creativity present in games like M:TG.
Miracle works because it provides strong synergy deck-wide, something that doesn't otherwise exist for most classes. Nerfing that synergy is ultimately a blow to the game itself. If conceal is too powerful, instead of making it cost more, create a neutral creature with an ability that reveals concealed creatures. If draw is too powerful, make a neutral that deals damage each time an opponent draws a card (and this would have other interesting synergies). That way, instead of making the game more simple and less fun by hitting the game's most interesting deck with the nerf bat, it just forces the player to be wary of things that might counter it and broadens the scope of decks that could be played.
That said, if an immediate nerf is absolutely necessary to ensure the integrity of the game in the immediate future, it seems to me a Leeroy nerf reducing it to a 5/2 would be fine. Take 3 damage off the Shadowstep rampage, and take 2 off the Warlock Faceless combos.
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I would probably keep Leeroy in my deck with a 5/2 stat-line. Definitely still worth it and probably brings the card in line with the rest of the game.
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What about making Leeroy cost 5 mana instead of 4 but change him to a 7/2? This would slightly nerf his cost-effectiveness while maintaining him as a powerful finisher.
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On May 31 2014 03:14 Release wrote:
What about making Leeroy summon two Whelps with taunt? That would at least require a fan of knifes or a blade flurry for the Shadowstep combo to be effective (or some decent board presence).
Make leeroy summon one Whelp 0-2 with taunt. that way the attacking player needs to have something to deal with the taunt before attacking directly with leeroy.
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the problem is not leeroy
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Here's my prediction: at some point in time, gadgetzan will be changed to only draw from spells that cost one or more mana.
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On June 01 2014 23:46 jrkirby wrote:
Here's my prediction: at some point in time, gadgetzan will be changed to only draw from spells that cost one or more mana.
Gadgetzan is only OP in this one deck. I don't see it being a problem in other decks that have 0 cost spells. For example, I think Gadgetzan is a cool card to add to a Malygos Druid deck where you would have potential combos with Moonfire or Wild Growth + Excess Mana.
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With Gadgetzan staying the way it is, it limits that future spell cards being low mana.
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On May 31 2014 04:56 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 03:14 Release wrote:
What about making Leeroy summon two Whelps with taunt? That would at least require a fan of knifes or a blade flurry for the Shadowstep combo to be effective (or some decent board presence). At that point you might as well suggest that Leeroy be removed from the game...
I 2nd that motion. Every deck running Leeroy is pretty BS to be honest.
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I agree that nerfing Gadgetzan is a bad idea because it's terrible in every other deck if it gets nerfed. Leeroy is certainly the issue, and basically just makes people angry in general in every one of it's uses in this game. I suppose some people call it "fun" and "different". I call it bullshit and I'd like to see it go away.
In any case, I hate miracle rogue so much I'm out for now. I left SC2 because they refused to do anything about the silly TvP, but they finally made a change. Going back to that until I see they do something about this fucking stupid miracle rogue deck. It's simply no fun whatsoever to just wait until a turn 8 and have them do almost a full 30 damage in one turn, while my druid is hoping for a specific 2 card combo to do a MUCH less 14 damage on turn NINE. Derp.
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Some form of burst damage is needed for the game, just like aggro being viable is needed to help balance things. But when it's way above 50% of total health (sometimes over 85%) in one turn it's just too much.
When it's not very reliable like Mage with Apprentice + spells/icelance it's less of a problem (still bullshit though) but when it's consistent like in Miracle Rogue I understand why it's a problem and can get very annoying for players.
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On June 04 2014 19:37 eXdeath wrote:
Some form of burst damage is needed for the game, just like aggro being viable is needed to help balance things. But when it's way above 50% of total health (sometimes over 85%) in one turn it's just too much.
When it's not very reliable like Mage with Apprentice + spells/icelance it's less of a problem (still bullshit though) but when it's consistent like in Miracle Rogue I understand why it's a problem and can get very annoying for players.
I have been killed from 30 health in 1 turn from miracle rogue when he was at 1 health. All he had was a stealthed gadgetzan on the field.
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On June 05 2014 05:14 Came Norrection wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 19:37 eXdeath wrote:
Some form of burst damage is needed for the game, just like aggro being viable is needed to help balance things. But when it's way above 50% of total health (sometimes over 85%) in one turn it's just too much.
When it's not very reliable like Mage with Apprentice + spells/icelance it's less of a problem (still bullshit though) but when it's consistent like in Miracle Rogue I understand why it's a problem and can get very annoying for players.
I have been killed from 30 health in 1 turn from miracle rogue when he was at 1 health. All he had was a stealthed gadgetzan on the field.
Leeroy (6) Shadowstep Leeroy x2 (12) Coldblood x2 (8) Prep Evis x2 (8)
So 34 damage is maximum in one turn that has happened to be twice, both with my priest deck.
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I think a tiny leeroy nerf would suffice to reduce the combo finishes of decks a little bit. Like make leeroy a 5/3 instead of a 6/2 maybe. It is possible that gadgetzan would be broken if more spells get made though, a simple fix would just be to alter conceal in some way that it won't work anymore in this style.
Not that I think miracle rogue balance wise, but I can see how people would not like this style of play to be viable. Hearthstone has a lot of two card damage combo's to finish now though, a small leeroy nerf would remove a lot of these and would make leeroy more restricted to decks that actually abuse it in some way like hunter.
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I'm beginning to agree more and more with a Leeroy nerf. If Reckless Rocketeer cost 6 mana for a 5/2, and the downside of Leeroy isn't much a downside, it seems like a 5/2 Leeroy for 4 mana is entirely reasonable with the practice of making legendaries underpriced. A 6/2 Leeroy for 4 mana is seeming to be excessive.
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EPT
