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On July 10 2009 00:05 Flaccid wrote:Uighur Riots Teach China to SpinShow nested quote +but, ANW, back to the topic : what is the point of the fight ? For independence ? If that, why kill random Han ? Uighurs have been complaining of unfair government treatment for ages. Now with the deaths of a few of their own over false accusations at a factory, they have some attention and want to grab at it. The presense of foreign press may have made it worthwhile for the group of women who protested against the detainment of their relatives following the factory brawl to step out - which ultimately sparked the riots. The point, as far as I can tell, is to draw national attention to their cause.
Has it really been proved that the accusations were false?
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Meh, that's what's being reported anyways. Depends whether you trust the media or not. I mean, they arrested the dude for spreading misinformation online...
The worker was held for allegedly posting a false report on a Web site claiming two girls had been raped by a half-dozen men at the Xuri Toy Factory in Shaoguan City in Guangdong province in southern China.
The posting led to a Thursday night confrontation between hundreds of workers from the Xuri plant and employees from another factory in Xinjiang, the Xinhua news agency reported Sunday.
Xinhua said further investigation turned up no reports of any sexual assaults. Police determined the former worker had posted the rumor after quitting his job and failing to be rehired.
Anyways, they should just eat some rice and get over it.
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So China responded in it's usual way. Zerging the area with troops?
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On July 09 2009 23:29 MK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2009 23:25 ghrur wrote:
Not really, the people inside understand more than you think.
They understand they're living in a very unstable region, at least I did. They also understand that the gov't isn't exactly truthful, lol or that their next president isn't chosen by them. I ain't saying they don't understand. I'm saying people from the outside understand better, or indeed, could understand better.Actually, from the inside, I ain't even sure it's "understand" but maybe more like "aware". Difficult to think without freedom so hard to understand  but, ANW, back to the topic : what is the point of the fight ? For independence ? If that, why kill random Han ? i think people saying things like that are what drive omnimo and the rest crazy. it's a fucking ridiculous statement. sure you can read the news but merely reading a limited stream of information doesn't make you understand the situation better than someone living in the area.
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On July 09 2009 23:57 Velr wrote:
From an outside view looking in this tread i get this image of china:
It's ok to slaughter down riots and non chinese people are not able tell if this is bad (or not) because it all has something to do with Chinese culture...
It's obviously also ok that the goverment lies to it's people because it has something to do with Chinese culture...
Alltogether i come to the conclusion:
Chinese culture is a sad excuse for goverment crimes and various other stuff that happens in China.
***BEST*** post in this thread by MILES. gg.
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On July 10 2009 00:03 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2009 23:06 Boblion wrote:On July 09 2009 22:55 KissBlade wrote:On July 09 2009 22:15 Boblion wrote:
Oh well i will be honest and edit. In this particular thread it was just omnimo.
However i find this kind of affirmation in every thread about China and it is just annoying.
Seriously this is the lamest thing you can find when you are arguing with people:
"You don't live here, you can't understand". On the other hand, can you honestly declare you do understand the situation? Very often, I find you post the same drivel in any China thread and it always seems to be talking about government control regardless of the topic. Similarly, I doubt you can name many Chinese political leaders nor describe how the current political system works without looking up wikipedia. Thanks for proving my point. Your point is that you never have any understanding of the topic and decide to post anyway?
My point is that you are using things like that as your main arguments:
Similarly, I doubt you can name many Chinese political leaders nor describe how the current political system works without looking up wikipedia.
Your point is that you never have any understanding of the topic and decide to post anyway?
On the other hand, can you honestly declare you do understand the situation?
Very often, I find you post the same drivel in any China thread and it always seems to be talking about government control regardless of the topic.
Basicly this can be summarized as:
"You are not Chinese so you don't know and you shouldn't talk about those issues."
The bolded parts are just a nice collection of assumptions.
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On July 10 2009 00:46 Alizee- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2009 23:57 Velr wrote:
From an outside view looking in this tread i get this image of china:
It's ok to slaughter down riots and non chinese people are not able tell if this is bad (or not) because it all has something to do with Chinese culture...
It's obviously also ok that the goverment lies to it's people because it has something to do with Chinese culture...
Alltogether i come to the conclusion:
Chinese culture is a sad excuse for goverment crimes and various other stuff that happens in China. ***BEST*** post in this thread by MILES. gg.
No one said it was okay to "slaughter down riots" or what have you. Also, no one was using "Chinese culture" as a justification for government oppression or censorship. Posters in China were just pointing out that you can't fully trust both foreign and Chinese media because they are biased, and that if your only source of knowledge on the subject is the western media, then your opinions aren't as valid as people who have lived in China and who also have access to the same foreign news sources as well as first-hand experience.
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On July 10 2009 00:56 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2009 00:03 KissBlade wrote:On July 09 2009 23:06 Boblion wrote:On July 09 2009 22:55 KissBlade wrote:On July 09 2009 22:15 Boblion wrote:
Oh well i will be honest and edit. In this particular thread it was just omnimo.
However i find this kind of affirmation in every thread about China and it is just annoying.
Seriously this is the lamest thing you can find when you are arguing with people:
"You don't live here, you can't understand". On the other hand, can you honestly declare you do understand the situation? Very often, I find you post the same drivel in any China thread and it always seems to be talking about government control regardless of the topic. Similarly, I doubt you can name many Chinese political leaders nor describe how the current political system works without looking up wikipedia. Thanks for proving my point. Your point is that you never have any understanding of the topic and decide to post anyway? My point is that you are using things like that as your main arguments: Show nested quote +
Similarly, I doubt you can name many Chinese political leaders nor describe how the current political system works without looking up wikipedia.
Show nested quote +
Your point is that you never have any understanding of the topic and decide to post anyway?
Show nested quote +
On the other hand, can you honestly declare you do understand the situation?
Show nested quote +
Very often, I find you post the same drivel in any China thread and it always seems to be talking about government control regardless of the topic.
Basicly this can be summarized as: "You are not Chinese so you don't know and you shouldn't talk about those issues." The bolded parts are just a nice collection of assumptions.
Yes. God forbid you do some research before posting on something.
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On July 10 2009 01:00 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2009 00:46 Alizee- wrote:On July 09 2009 23:57 Velr wrote:
From an outside view looking in this tread i get this image of china:
It's ok to slaughter down riots and non chinese people are not able tell if this is bad (or not) because it all has something to do with Chinese culture...
It's obviously also ok that the goverment lies to it's people because it has something to do with Chinese culture...
Alltogether i come to the conclusion:
Chinese culture is a sad excuse for goverment crimes and various other stuff that happens in China. ***BEST*** post in this thread by MILES. gg. No one said it was okay to "slaughter down riots" or what have you. Also, no one was using "Chinese culture" as a justification for government oppression or censorship. Posters in China were just pointing out that you can't fully trust both foreign and Chinese media because they are biased, and that if your only source of knowledge on the subject is the western media, then your opinions aren't as valid as people who have lived in China and who also have access to the same foreign news sources as well as first-hand experience.
The main difference between "Western" countries and China is that you can find different sources of information ranging from ultra left to ultra right.
Censorship is a very marginal problem contrarily to China ( and you will find people protesting or even demonstrating against censorship ).
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i think people saying things like that are what drive omnimo and the rest crazy. it's a fucking ridiculous statement. sure you can read the news but merely reading a limited stream of information doesn't make you understand the situation better than someone living in the area.
If you are outside and in a freespeech country, you can have both inside and outside information, you can freespeech so you can debate and construct your vision and reflexion from other people's opinions.
Plus, you are outside, you are more likely to think with the head and not think with the heart. It's easier to be abstractive when it's not your country.
I'm ok if you tell me : you can't feel what it is if you are not inside but don't tell me you can't understand.
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Chinese nationalists are the new shell-shocked vietnam vets.
"You weren't there man. You weren't therrrre"
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Communism has its limits.
Terrible that so many had to die.
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On July 10 2009 01:17 MK wrote:Show nested quote +i think people saying things like that are what drive omnimo and the rest crazy. it's a fucking ridiculous statement. sure you can read the news but merely reading a limited stream of information doesn't make you understand the situation better than someone living in the area. If you are outside and in a freespeech country, you can have both inside and outside information, you can freespeech so you can debate and construct your vision and reflexion from other people's opinions. Plus, you are outside, you are more likely to think with the head and not think with the heart. It's easier to be abstractive when it's not your country. I'm ok if you tell me : you can't feel what it is if you are not inside but don't tell me you can't understand.
You can't understand because you are not aware of the historical and cultural context these types of conflicts are embedded in. In terms of information you don't have "inside" information unless you speak Chinese.
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On July 10 2009 01:17 MK wrote:Show nested quote +i think people saying things like that are what drive omnimo and the rest crazy. it's a fucking ridiculous statement. sure you can read the news but merely reading a limited stream of information doesn't make you understand the situation better than someone living in the area. If you are outside and in a freespeech country, you can have both inside and outside information, you can freespeech so you can debate and construct your vision and reflexion from other people's opinions. Plus, you are outside, you are more likely to think with the head and not think with the heart. It's easier to be abstractive when it's not your country. I'm ok if you tell me : you can't feel what it is if you are not inside but don't tell me you can't understand. I understand your argument, but I think it is based on some incorrect assumptions. I agree that free speech and free information are the two most important things in trying to understand a situation. However, before the very recent foreign media reports from the region, free information has been very hard to come by. In this relatively remote region, independent reports are hard to come by; for the first few days of the conflict, we were relying on information that came through the filters of either the chinese government, or the repressed uighar minority. In both circumstances, I think it is pretty obvious that such information cannot be taken at face value. Therefore, even outside of China, because foreign media was limited to so few sources of information, it is sort of a moot point to argue that you could gain a deeper understanding than those living in China.
Secondly, I'm in China right now and I had no trouble accessing the articles posted in this thread from the NYTimes or Boston.com websites. I think that information here isn't as limited as you think; sure the government will try to block what it feels is damaging, but it is impossible for them to block everything. I think people here who care enough about this topic will not find it too difficult to find opinions and news about the conflict beyond the government filter
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On July 10 2009 01:15 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2009 01:00 reincremate wrote:On July 10 2009 00:46 Alizee- wrote:On July 09 2009 23:57 Velr wrote:
From an outside view looking in this tread i get this image of china:
It's ok to slaughter down riots and non chinese people are not able tell if this is bad (or not) because it all has something to do with Chinese culture...
It's obviously also ok that the goverment lies to it's people because it has something to do with Chinese culture...
Alltogether i come to the conclusion:
Chinese culture is a sad excuse for goverment crimes and various other stuff that happens in China. ***BEST*** post in this thread by MILES. gg. No one said it was okay to "slaughter down riots" or what have you. Also, no one was using "Chinese culture" as a justification for government oppression or censorship. Posters in China were just pointing out that you can't fully trust both foreign and Chinese media because they are biased, and that if your only source of knowledge on the subject is the western media, then your opinions aren't as valid as people who have lived in China and who also have access to the same foreign news sources as well as first-hand experience. The main difference between "Western" countries and China is that you can find different sources of information ranging from ultra left to ultra right. Censorship is a very marginal problem contrarily to China ( and you will find people protesting or even demonstrating against censorship ).
The "information" or "facts" of the situation are the same everywhere and from CCTV, unless western media have their individual sources who are undercover and reporting from Xin Jiang illegally.
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On July 10 2009 01:17 MK wrote:Show nested quote +i think people saying things like that are what drive omnimo and the rest crazy. it's a fucking ridiculous statement. sure you can read the news but merely reading a limited stream of information doesn't make you understand the situation better than someone living in the area. If you are outside and in a freespeech country, you can have both inside and outside information, you can freespeech so you can debate and construct your vision and reflexion from other people's opinions. Plus, you are outside, you are more likely to think with the head and not think with the heart. It's easier to be abstractive when it's not your country. I'm ok if you tell me : you can't feel what it is if you are not inside but don't tell me you can't understand.
Saying "You can't understand" is a limited argument IMO. Of course, non Chinese can understand the situation. In fact, the entirety of my knowledge on China and it's history is from Western sources. (my professor of Chinese history was from New England ffs) However, what's often prevalent in these topics is that most of the time people won't even bother looking into information beyond a paragraph or two of yahoo news and consider themselves educated on the source.
Of course, the average Chinese citizen have a different set of freedoms than the average American or wherever you may hail from but to think that people there don't have access to information about what's going on is insulting. For one, what people don't seem to understand is that Hu Jintao is a VERY personable president. He's well aware of how to keep up public appearance as well as being good at his job. Similarly the quality of life in China is on a constant rise.
More over, a study of Chinese history would show that Legalism is considered a viable source of governing. Yes, it runs contrary to Confucian teachings at times but there's a strict sense of respect your elders and respect those who governs you. This is where most Chinese feel insulted when you insult their government. However to find the average Chinese apolitical or afraid to complain, that's ridiculous. There are many people who speak out against the government when they feel the government fucked up. Yes nationalistic moments like the Cultural Revolution was fucked up and you'd find a majority of educated Chinese agreeing with that. Chinese are patriotic people but they're not blindly nationalistic.
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Maybe someone can elaborate the difference between Han chinese and other groups of chinese citizens in China
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Boblion why do you complain about your rights to open debate if you don't know anything about the situation.
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On July 10 2009 01:55 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Boblion why do you complain about your rights to open debate if you don't know anything about the situation.
There are those who speak simply because they like to hear their own voice?
On July 10 2009 01:55 ZeeTemplar wrote:
Maybe someone can elaborate the difference between Han chinese and other groups of chinese citizens in China
Han Chinese is considered "ethnic Chinese" while other groups of Chinese citizens can range from White Russians (russian Jews who fled to China), Muslims, Indians and various other immigrants. There are Chinese who lived in china for many generations but ethnic wise you wouldn't call them Asian.
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On July 10 2009 01:43 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2009 01:15 Boblion wrote:On July 10 2009 01:00 reincremate wrote:On July 10 2009 00:46 Alizee- wrote:On July 09 2009 23:57 Velr wrote:
From an outside view looking in this tread i get this image of china:
It's ok to slaughter down riots and non chinese people are not able tell if this is bad (or not) because it all has something to do with Chinese culture...
It's obviously also ok that the goverment lies to it's people because it has something to do with Chinese culture...
Alltogether i come to the conclusion:
Chinese culture is a sad excuse for goverment crimes and various other stuff that happens in China. ***BEST*** post in this thread by MILES. gg. No one said it was okay to "slaughter down riots" or what have you. Also, no one was using "Chinese culture" as a justification for government oppression or censorship. Posters in China were just pointing out that you can't fully trust both foreign and Chinese media because they are biased, and that if your only source of knowledge on the subject is the western media, then your opinions aren't as valid as people who have lived in China and who also have access to the same foreign news sources as well as first-hand experience. The main difference between "Western" countries and China is that you can find different sources of information ranging from ultra left to ultra right. Censorship is a very marginal problem contrarily to China ( and you will find people protesting or even demonstrating against censorship ). The "information" or "facts" of the situation are the same everywhere and from CCTV, unless western media have their individual sources who are undercover and reporting from Xin Jiang illegally.
If the "information" and the "facts" are the same why censorship is needed ?
On July 10 2009 01:55 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Boblion why do you complain about your rights to open debate if you don't know anything about the situation.
Ah ?
And how do you know that i don't know anything ?
You are making assumptions like Kissblade.
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EPT
