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On July 12 2009 13:30 BisuBoi wrote:
The funniest part of it is that I highly doubt Velr has much knowledge of Chinese culture or history at all, yet wants to make a snarky little comment about how he's sure it's just an excuse for such obviously heinous tyranny and that there could never be an excuse for what the Chinese do. Nor do I think Boblion has ever even opened a Chinese newspaper, or even is literate in Mandarin Chinese. Yet he wants to make a comment about the entire Chinese journalistic world? It's a sad day when someone thinks he knows something and has zero primary sources or experiences to back up his views. Yet wants to come up with theories about China and their censorship. It's strongly implied in his post that Chinese are so ignorant that they can't be trusted to comment on anything, unlike the West. All 3 of these comments are written with a direct comparison between Eastern and Western cultures. So telling me that it isn't about people from the West claiming they're better is just a boldfaced lie.
Why are they blocking youtube, twitter, CNN or the BBC so ?
Insecure much ?
Freedom of expression maybe ?
Actually i'm not even critisizing what is happening with the riots. You can't really blame the police when ethnic riots happen.
But the problem is the lack of non biased informations. The government says that most of the people who died were Hans but at the same time he is blocking informations eh ...
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On July 13 2009 00:25 Boblion wrote:
Why are they blocking youtube, twitter, CNN or the BBC so ?
Insecure much ?
Freedom of expression maybe ?
Don't they allow youku though? Which is basically a chinese youtube?
And if they don't allow CNN/BBC, do they allow Fox or NBC?
Actually i'm not even critisizing what is happening with the riots. You can't really blame the police when ethnic riots happen. But the problem is the lack of non biased informations. The government says that most of the people who died were Hans but at the same time he is blocking informations eh ...
Would there be a problem if the government stepped in to stop the Uighurs? So what if there are some deaths to stop this, it will be needed. The Chinese government needs to control 1.4 billion people, they will need some kind of deterrent for violence. Furthermore, the government isn't as brutal as you think, so they might not even have killed any. Look at this case: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/19/tibet.video/ It stated that those who surrendered would be exempt from punishment. That doesn't exactly sound brutal to me, it sounds like if you plea guilty in a court case, you get no punishment. Also, if someone kills 140 people in America, wouldn't you treat them as terrorists? Why shouldn't the Chinese government do the same? Should they be on a higher moral plane so they don't try and exterminate the extremists or at least deter most of them?
So, my points here are this:
Some deaths are needed as deterrents.
Government isn't always brutal.
Uighurs can be looked upon as extremists in this case, so some violence might be justified.
You're completely right about the lack of non-biased information, but this isn't just in China.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 13 2009 00:59 ghrur wrote:
It stated that those who surrendered would be exempt from punishment.
I've got some great real estate in Florida to sell you. PM me if you want to make millions!
Granted, the government's reaction has still been mild compared to similar cases (thinking native Americans) but the Uigher grievances are pretty legitimate.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 12 2009 03:42 Stripe wrote:
Also according to Jared Diamond in "Guns Germs and Steel," no colonial power earned a net profit from colonization not even the British Raj in India since it cost the nation way more to garisson their troops there. The may economic growth of the modern era was capitalism and competition not colonialism. That's responsible for all the improvements in life and new technology not stealing resources from other countries. Diamond is a geography professor and there's no accurate way to measure the historical profits of colonialism. Furthermore, "improvements in life" is a completely subjective term. Saying "their life is better for being colonized" is a pretty offensive thing to say.
I agree with the top part of your post completely though.
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@ Bobolion I'll explain that. As I said before, China has always believed that a mix between Legalism and Confucian principles are the proper way to guide a country. Now the two DO clash against each other very very often, however one thing both share is that government stability is the most important thing to guide a nation. The blocking of youtube, twitter, etc is stupid, a lot of Chinese feel the same way. (CNN/BBC is probably blocked due to the bias they themselves show on this matter) It does show a sense of insecurity and obviously unbiased sources of information IS hard to find. But you can hardly say that such things doesn't hold true for both sides.
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There's a simple reason why youtube/twitter are being blocked and that's because they don't want anyone to fan the flames. How accurate are youtube videos? Video can be totally manipulated to make it look like some thing's happening when it's not. Just look at that ridiculous "propaganda buster" guy's video. Then others get on, see the video, and think it must be real because they saw it with their own eyes. Then they'll get a skewed vision of what's going on and may act erratically because of it.
Just look at the reason the Uighur riots started in the first place! 2 Uighurs die in Guandong, on the other side of the freaking country, and then overseas Uighurs spread rumors that Uighurs outside of Xinjiang are being mass murdered. This caused the Uighurs IN Xinjiang to go apeshit crazy (not that I blame them, they don't know any better). But it shows how misinformation caused a lot of this tragedy.
And tbh, I don't think this approach is going to be used much longer. Already you see China using more sophisticated means of propaganda (they learn from the USA). They distribute their own talking points to the media, they provide statistics, they allow the media to go into the region. They're showing a lot more openness this time and I find it absolutely ridiculous that some people are saying China's always the same, or that these atrocities won't stop until Communism is gone, and all kinds of other wrong-headed propagandist nonsense.
China's learning and liberalizing before our eyes and I see very few detractors of China on this thread drawing attention to that. Instead, they want to cry over some shit like twitter. Really? Twitter? Yeah, because Twitter is such a font of intellectual wisdom right? God forbid the Uighurs can't read what Ashton Kutcher's doing while mobbing in the streets. What a tragedy!
Most civil unrest is due to bad PR management on the gov'ts part. Anyone who knows how shit goes knows that the average citizen in any country has very little capacity to change how the system works. The only time the average citizen can do anything is when the gov't has collapsed and can no longer exert control. I think it's really disgusting that morons like Babblion are trying to drop snide remarks like "insecure much?" If you knew a damn thing about China's history, you would know that is exactly the problem! They're a relatively NEW country that's emerged from almost 2 centuries of civil war and foreign invasion! YES they're insecure!
If you had to govern 1.4 billion people with a history of civil unrest and build a first-class economy from scratch and the world's only superpower is actively trying to destabilize your political system, would you be glowing with confidence? The lack of understanding is exactly why I take issue with so many of the criticisms. If there was actually a high degree of dissent among the population, you think the People's Party could really hold on to control?
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There's no "unbiased" sources of information I hope you eventually realize that Boblion. Censorship is an act rooted in Chinese conservative ideology. We have an idiom called "家丑不可以外扬“ which means roughly; the ugly side of the personal should not be seen. Chinese censorship is an act embedded in a complex cultural context which people who do not have knowledge and experience of that culture will misinterpret. Boblion in ethnography there is a concept called "naive realism" that refers to people who believe everyone views the world in a similar manner as them.
For the riots, what would China accomplish if they did not exercise control over information in this case? Do you think tensions between the Muslims and the Han would ease? What do you think the backlash would cause? More importantly what's your reasoning for not controlling the spread of information about the riots? That it's good and liberal ideology is superior?
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On July 12 2009 03:42 Stripe wrote:
I don't like it when people dismiss entire arguments by saying lol you haven't lived here your argument is invalid. It's probably a logical fallacy of some sort. Instead of doing that, can we please address individual points and refute them? If you're so versed in the culture it should be easy.
Somehow these China topics also bring up how evil the west is. It makes no sense; no one is talking about America or Europe. This topic is for discussing China; you guys are deflecting criticism by saying "lol you're worse." It's not like we only criticize China. Since you live in China and may not know this, we bash our governments a lot maybe even more than China.
Also according to Jared Diamond in "Guns Germs and Steel," no colonial power earned a net profit from colonization not even the British Raj in India since it cost the nation way more to garisson their troops there. The may economic growth of the modern era was capitalism and competition not colonialism. That's responsible for all the improvements in life and new technology not stealing resources from other countries.
It's not a logical fallacy. Many arguments about China and Chinese culture are shit because people don't know what China or Chinese culture is. Why is that so hard to stomach? What makes you qualified to make judgments about another culture when you don't have knowledge or experience of it?
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Boblion, why do you want to argue so badly about something you have no clue about. I don't understand where this urge to spew retarded shit comes from. I've never felt the desire to like, go to a Jewish forum to argue about their religious beliefs then get mad because they tell me I'm saying stupid stuff. Seriously WHY?
There's a lot to be criticized about Chinese policy, the Chinese media, censorship, etc. But you don't even know how the shit you're criticizing works. Why do you post in this thread, Boblion. You also mentioned that China threads are usually the worst shitfests on TL. You single-handedly turned this thread into people educating you about how China really works yet you consistently deny that you have no knowledge of the subject at hand.
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One of the biggest things most Westerners do not realize is the extent people like Zhou En Lai, Deng XiaoPeng, Jiang Zeimen and Hu Jintao have helped the life of the Chinese. I have a great deal of respect for those men and how much hard work they've actually put into to helping the nation. It exceeds the promises of Barack Obama by /miles/. Yet the common image of the Chinese government is unfortunately Mao's Cultural Revolution which even the most nationalistic Chinese will admit is a complete atrocity and outright power abuse. Yes, Mao united the country under one vision, helped industrialize the nation but he left the country in a complete clusterfuck of a shitmess between corruption, censureship and poverty. Most people have ZERO idea to the extent of how much work the Chinese government put in after to make China what it is today.
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On July 13 2009 01:57 BisuBoi wrote:
Most civil unrest is due to bad PR management on the gov'ts part. Anyone who knows how shit goes knows that the average citizen in any country has very little capacity to change how the system works. The only time the average citizen can do anything is when the gov't has collapsed and can no longer exert control. I think it's really disgusting that morons like Babblion are trying to drop snide remarks like "insecure much?" If you knew a damn thing about China's history, you would know that is exactly the problem! They're a relatively NEW country that's emerged from almost 2 centuries of civil war and foreign invasion! YES they're insecure!
If you had to govern 1.4 billion people with a history of civil unrest and build a first-class economy from scratch and the world's only superpower is actively trying to destabilize your political system, would you be glowing with confidence? The lack of understanding is exactly why I take issue with so many of the criticisms. If there was actually a high degree of dissent among the population, you think the People's Party could really hold on to control?
Lack of understanding. Why does it never work both ways? While you criticize everyone else from not understanding you, how are we to blame? Wasn't it your government that expels journalists? Wasn't it your government that cuts internet and telephone connections of whole areas? You're essentially asking to cut the government some slack, because well it's a big country, lots of people and you don't quite know how things are going down the proper way, really??
You can't blame water for boiling in a pot when you put on the heat.
On July 10 2009 12:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2009 03:49 Jayson X wrote:
Han-chauvinism is to the rest of us like a great wall icwudt. The feeling that regions like Xinjian and Tibet are "ungrateful" isn't really hard to understand. China views those areas as a rightful part of its territory, and has invested a lot of time and resources into the regions in an attempt to improve the conditions and try to make the locals feel the same way. When these generally good-intentioned attempts are met with accusations of destroying culture/heritage, it's only natural that some of the Chinese feel offended.
No! I cannot accept such a viewpoint. And neither could you if we switched positions.
There is no desire to improve conditions for the locals, there is only assimilation to a system that neither speaks your language nor accepts your cultural and religious freedom. If it shouldn't be hard to understand why do we have all these problems in the first place?
You tell me, how is this going to end? The government dealt with this kind of situation before and the same reaction pattern can be seen. What is being done to prevent these situations from happening again? Long term! Explain it to me, to us, so we can understand and possibly share your viewpoint.
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You have not offered any viable alternative. Complaining for the sake of complaining accomplishes nothing. I mean you put forth the notion that China doesn't accept the language, culture nor religious freedoms but the only time this held true was when the Dalai llama attempted to incite an revolt in the region. I should maybe underline the "revolt" portion to show that, that's not a small deal. You are expecting a country that came out of a civil war to just basically chill after a region's ruler attempted to seize control.
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On July 09 2009 18:59 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2009 18:45 evanthebouncy! wrote:On July 09 2009 18:28 CharlieMurphy wrote:
can you use the link button, your shit fucked up the page format.
Pics look pretty hectic, what the hell is this all about anyways? In short, just an Ethnic riot, you can relate it to some of the strife in middle east, although far smaller in scale. Still very significant though, China is normally fairly under control. I'm sorry evan. You are dead wrong on China being in control. The vast inland regions are effectively a big fucking ghetto. Bright kids leave for the big coastal cities, money and minerals gets ship off to the richer states. It's a ridiculous and untolerable situation due to government's changing policy shifts. The government periodically change their economic development focus and if your region is leftout, good luck because you are pretty much fucked for the next decade or two.
More and more people are moving to china. In the next decade or two, they predict china will overtake america in economy.
On July 13 2009 04:23 Jayson X wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2009 01:57 BisuBoi wrote:
Most civil unrest is due to bad PR management on the gov'ts part. Anyone who knows how shit goes knows that the average citizen in any country has very little capacity to change how the system works. The only time the average citizen can do anything is when the gov't has collapsed and can no longer exert control. I think it's really disgusting that morons like Babblion are trying to drop snide remarks like "insecure much?" If you knew a damn thing about China's history, you would know that is exactly the problem! They're a relatively NEW country that's emerged from almost 2 centuries of civil war and foreign invasion! YES they're insecure!
If you had to govern 1.4 billion people with a history of civil unrest and build a first-class economy from scratch and the world's only superpower is actively trying to destabilize your political system, would you be glowing with confidence? The lack of understanding is exactly why I take issue with so many of the criticisms. If there was actually a high degree of dissent among the population, you think the People's Party could really hold on to control? Lack of understanding. Why does it never work both ways? While you criticize everyone else from not understanding you, how are we to blame? Wasn't it your government that expels journalists? Wasn't it your government that cuts internet and telephone connections of whole areas? You're essentially asking to cut the government some slack, because well it's a big country, lots of people and you don't quite know how things are going down the proper way, really??
Sure china does expels journalists and shit, but america does crap too all the time that you don't hear about, because the government also controls the media. Freedom of speech, sure you're able to say whatever you want, but doesn't mean you can't get punished for saying it.
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On July 13 2009 04:23 Jayson X wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2009 01:57 BisuBoi wrote:
Most civil unrest is due to bad PR management on the gov'ts part. Anyone who knows how shit goes knows that the average citizen in any country has very little capacity to change how the system works. The only time the average citizen can do anything is when the gov't has collapsed and can no longer exert control. I think it's really disgusting that morons like Babblion are trying to drop snide remarks like "insecure much?" If you knew a damn thing about China's history, you would know that is exactly the problem! They're a relatively NEW country that's emerged from almost 2 centuries of civil war and foreign invasion! YES they're insecure!
If you had to govern 1.4 billion people with a history of civil unrest and build a first-class economy from scratch and the world's only superpower is actively trying to destabilize your political system, would you be glowing with confidence? The lack of understanding is exactly why I take issue with so many of the criticisms. If there was actually a high degree of dissent among the population, you think the People's Party could really hold on to control? Lack of understanding. Why does it never work both ways? While you criticize everyone else from not understanding you, how are we to blame? Wasn't it your government that expels journalists? Wasn't it your government that cuts internet and telephone connections of whole areas? You're essentially asking to cut the government some slack, because well it's a big country, lots of people and you don't quite know how things are going down the proper way, really?? You can't blame water for boiling in a pot when you put on the heat. Show nested quote +On July 10 2009 12:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 10 2009 03:49 Jayson X wrote:
Han-chauvinism is to the rest of us like a great wall icwudt. The feeling that regions like Xinjian and Tibet are "ungrateful" isn't really hard to understand. China views those areas as a rightful part of its territory, and has invested a lot of time and resources into the regions in an attempt to improve the conditions and try to make the locals feel the same way. When these generally good-intentioned attempts are met with accusations of destroying culture/heritage, it's only natural that some of the Chinese feel offended. No! I cannot accept such a viewpoint. And neither could you if we switched positions. There is no desire to improve conditions for the locals, there is only assimilation to a system that neither speaks your language nor accepts your cultural and religious freedom. If it shouldn't be hard to understand why do we have all these problems in the first place? You tell me, how is this going to end? The government dealt with this kind of situation before and the same reaction pattern can be seen. What is being done to prevent these situations from happening again? Long term! Explain it to me, to us, so we can understand and possibly share your viewpoint.
Your entire argument (and your annoying self-righteous anger) is based on ignorance. How much research have you done on the Xinjiang region? What is your knowledge of the gov't policies concerning Xinjiang?
Do you have any knowledge at all on what changes have occurred in the region since mid-20th century? Or are you just talking out your ass with a half-baked notion, completely derived from Western media outlets, of what you think is going on there? This isn't even saying "you have to be Chinese to understand." What I am saying is you need at least some awareness of what's going on. Could I explain to you a physics problem when you can't do basic math? You need at least a functional understanding of the problem to have an opinion. Knowing Xinjiang's in the west, has Muslim turks and Han people, and that it's been off and on a part of Chinese territory for a thousand years or so is NOT sufficient.
You don't see Chinese people complaining when someone talks with some degree of knowledge concerning the region/history. And notice that most people with knowledge of the area speak with more nuance and less bias towards the issues. There's a reason people who run in hear, all fucking Rambo about "freedom," are the ones who are called ignorant.
China does NOT sit around trying to repress Xinjiang culture and overwhelm them with Han culture. You act like this is some kind of race war. It's not. The PRC doesn't care about race. Some of its citizens do, but the gov't does not. They don't care about religion either. They could care less if you're Muslim or Confucian or Taoist or Jewish. What you fail to understand is that the gov't closed down just as many Buddhist and Taoist temples as they did mosques. They defaced and burnt just as many Chinese holy texts as Turkic ones.
This isn't about Han assimilation. It's about political stability. The reason they clamp down on some of the religious practices of the Uighurs is that many of these mosques are used as networks for terrorist cells and separatist movements! This is no different from the US monitoring mosques and shutting them down in Afghanistan. You do realize that Al-Qaeda actively tries to infiltrate areas of Xinjiang and set up new networks there right? And that the CIA is there as well trying to train separatist militias?
Another moronic idea you have is that you think all Chinese speak the same language. Mandarin was MADE the official language of the country. IT IS NOT what all Chinese spoke natively! Every region has its own damn language. They're all taught Mandarin in schools as a way to standardize the country! There's no inherent racial bias there. Wtf kind of crap is that? To say the Xinjiang people are being forced to learn Mandarin is some kind of racist assimilation is bullshit. Every other ethnicity in China, OF WHICH THERE ARE MANY, are ALL forced to learn Mandarin! This is for efficiency's sake! Not some kind of cultural dominance. Don't sit there and spout some garbage about "they don't have the freedom to speak their own language." Nobody's going into the homes of Uighurs and clubbing them for speaking their native language. There are 52 different languages native to China. All of them are spoken freely in the streets. Nobody is banned from speaking their language. But do they learn ONE language in school? YES.
Do you see people accusing America of racial assimilation and cultural dominance when they require people to know English and English history to get citizenship?
Just shut up if you're going to continue being ignorant and howling your opinion. You haven't earned the right to an opinion until you've done the homework. Not everything is a Disney movie with a clear good and evil. This isn't a case of those poor Uighurs who just want to live their lives versus the evil Han imperialists who want to exterminate them. If you want to get mad at this, go start a thread about the UK and N. Ireland and spew your same garbage there, because it would be just as applicable a situation. Somehow, I doubt you will though.
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A side point but "The US does the same thing" or "Americans/UK have done far worse" should probably be rephrased that it's unfortunate that EVERY major power in the world plays this game.
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I totally agree with you but that's the reality of the human condition. Scarcity breeds this kind of behavior. And see, the thing is, I would have no problem with people decrying how all governments do this. It's the position that "wow, this is sick. If they had democracy/freedom/Western values, this would never occur," that really pisses me off.
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On July 13 2009 01:24 KissBlade wrote:
@ Bobolion I'll explain that. As I said before, China has always believed that a mix between Legalism and Confucian principles are the proper way to guide a country. Now the two DO clash against each other very very often, however one thing both share is that government stability is the most important thing to guide a nation. The blocking of youtube, twitter, etc is stupid, a lot of Chinese feel the same way. (CNN/BBC is probably blocked due to the bias they themselves show on this matter) It does show a sense of insecurity and obviously unbiased sources of information IS hard to find. But you can hardly say that such things doesn't hold true for both sides.
Thank you for the answer ( actually i wasn't making a "real" question and i expected this answer).
My point was more that the government should expect this kind of media blacklash when they block informations 
On July 13 2009 02:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
There's no "unbiased" sources of information I hope you eventually realize that Boblion.
Some sources are more biased. Some are even lies.
Although you are right that perfect unbiased informations might not exist, some journalists try to make their best and usually provide good informations.
On July 13 2009 02:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Censorship is an act rooted in Chinese conservative ideology. We have an idiom called "家丑不可以外扬“ which means roughly; the ugly side of the personal should not be seen. Chinese censorship is an act embedded in a complex cultural context which people who do not have knowledge and experience of that culture will misinterpret. Boblion in ethnography there is a concept called "naive realism" that refers to people who believe everyone views the world in a similar manner as them.
Well that refers also to people who believe that everyone views China in a similar manner as them.
;d
On July 13 2009 02:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
For the riots, what would China accomplish if they did not exercise control over information in this case?
Gain respect ?
Achieve more transparency ?
I enjoy reading a lot of different newspapers but even the more leftist are blaming China for having a terrible political communication. When a newspaper which is usually all about bashing American imperialism and praising people like Chavez says that the accusations of a foreign plots by the Chinese governement are ridiculous i think that there is somewhat a consensus.
On July 13 2009 02:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Do you think tensions between the Muslims and the Han would ease?
I doubt that rioters are watching TV. I guess they are too busy fighting with police or burning cars eh.
On July 13 2009 02:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
What do you think the backlash would cause?
Maybe people would talk about the real issues and stop to blame ..... the police or censorship ?
On July 13 2009 02:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
More importantly what's your reasoning for not controlling the spread of information about the riots? That it's good and liberal ideology is superior?
Well i think that transparency is always better when it comes to the image of a country abroad. Seems like i'm not wrong lol.
On July 13 2009 02:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Boblion, why do you want to argue so badly about something you have no clue about.
Why are you still making this kind of accusations ?
I have no clue about what ?
On July 13 2009 02:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I don't understand where this urge to spew retarded shit comes from.
Please free to quote where i said "lies".
On July 13 2009 02:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I've never felt the desire to like, go to a Jewish forum to argue about their religious beliefs then get mad because they tell me I'm saying stupid stuff. Seriously WHY?
The problem my dear Zulu is that we are not on ilovejudaism.com and that TL isn't a forum for Chinese Han only so maybe you aren't used to controversy but that's what you should expect here.
On July 13 2009 02:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:
There's a lot to be criticized about Chinese policy, the Chinese media, censorship, etc. But you don't even know how the shit you're criticizing works.
?
And what i don't know (bis) ?
On July 13 2009 02:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Why do you post in this thread, Boblion.
Because i have the right to ?
You are angry ?
On July 13 2009 02:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:
You also mentioned that China threads are usually the worst shitfests on TL.
You single-handedly turned this thread into people educating you about how China really works yet you consistently deny that you have no knowledge of the subject at hand.
Eh i doubt i have been educated here lol.
Zulu when i post with a question mark it is not always a question. It is often irony.
But i feel flattered.
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On July 13 2009 05:40 BisuBoi wrote:
I totally agree with you but that's the reality of the human condition. Scarcity breeds this kind of behavior. And see, the thing is, I would have no problem with people decrying how all governments do this. It's the position that "wow, this is sick. If they had democracy/freedom/Western values, this would never occur," that really pisses me off.
You are a big baby.
You argue that hypocrisy is bad. I want to know why.
Come on sissy-boy, tell me why.
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Bla, noone's going that way Bisuboi. You're like an old tape playing the same tunes over and over again in this thread, pointing at people and telling them they are dead wrong all togheter. Expecting everyone to understand without any attemp to help them understand leading me to believe that you simply think it is good and right and noone outside should put their nose in it.
Our standpoints are fundamentaly different in that you expect them to ACCEPT that it is how it is now and to play along. Yes if the black man just played his position in africa white people could have it so much easier. Nomatter what you do and what benefits you hand out, it still comes from a foreign opressor (yes i know what your standpoint is here, spare me the distorted history).
But as it is with everything, and i assume your goverment read history books, time is on your side and future generations either wont exist or simply wont remember / be teached about their grand-granddads.
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Sorry for off topic but
On July 10 2009 21:45 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:
So...the history of the world is the history of violece. The point remains that the creation of the United States, while filled with acts of violence, was the biggest step in the past 1000 years toward a moral world.
I would say the Magna Carta was a considerably larger step towards a moral world that took place in the last 1000 years. And it's also possible that had it not existed there would be no USA.
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EPT
